847 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Anyway, I think if Bioware made a game kind of in the vein of ME1 or whatever and just kind of made it quintessentially "Bioware" feeling I think they would just be fine.

 

Chasing after MMOs or Dotas or Skyrim, or tactical strategy games like FE or whatever thing that seems to pop up that would be the absolute worst thing they could do.

 

I'm with you there.

 

Although I would like them to mix up their stories a bit. I liked that they tried something different with DA2 (and even then, it still had familiar elements).

[Seraphim24]

I'm with you there.

 

Although I would like them to mix up their stories a bit. I liked that they tried something different with DA2 (and even then, it still had familiar elements).

 

I don't know, I think the theme should be not experimenting just to kind of solidify....

 

Like ok, Dragon Age 2 was different I guess, but it wasn't night and day, as I said some time ago Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Witcher, Dragon Age 2... like... yeah they're different but kind of different aisles of the same store.

 

Like it should have

 

1. Save the world plotline

2. Romances

3. A kind of strong desire to please

4. Tons of graphical nerdy things (Fancy new this, fancy gadget that)

5. Lots of jokes

 

Bonus points for twisting things into knots (a la PST), or emphasizing more unique conversation/dialogue options etc, but I don't think it would be super critical

[straykat]

I don't know, I think the theme should be not experimenting just to kind of solidify....

 

Like ok, Dragon Age 2 was different I guess, but it wasn't night and day, as I said some time ago Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Witcher, Dragon Age 2... like... yeah they're different but kind of different aisles of the same store.

 

Like it should have

 

1. Save the world plotline

2. Romances

3. A kind of strong desire to please

4. Tons of graphical nerdy things (Fancy new this, fancy gadget that)

5. Lots of jokes

 

Bonus points for twisting things into knots (a la PST), or emphasizing more unique conversation/dialogue options etc, but I don't think it would be super critical

 

That's the thing though. There's no saving the world in DA2. It's more of a critique of the world..and just living in it. I'd prefer that. There's plenty of room for a lot of stories within DA, but not if they kept churning out end-of-the-world plots. And making key points around high level lore.

 

How about I just get a Heist story for a change? Or maybe just rise up in the Felicisima Armada? No? Am I the only one?

[Seraphim24]

That's the thing though. There's no saving the world in DA2. It's more of a critique of the world..and just living in it. I'd prefer that. There's plenty of room for a lot of stories within DA, but not if they kept churning out end-of-the-world plots. And making key points around high level lore.

 

How about I just get a Heist story for a change? Or maybe just rise up in Felicisima Armada? No? Am I the only one?

 

Oh come on,    it's save the world in theme if not in fact.

 

Lonely wandering refugee named Hawke Skywalker scrubs and scraps to the top, meeting and mashing with people, left, right, and center, eventually raising to a position of status and fighting off huge problematic enemies (Arishok), culminating in an epic battle to save the entire city of Kirkwall (and likely the rest of at least nearby world if not the whole world) from the ravages of Queen Demon god Meredith.

[straykat]

Oh come on,    it's save the world in theme if not in fact, everyone knows it.

 

Lonely wandering refugee named Hawke Skywalker scrubs and scraps to the top, meeting and mashing with people, left, right, and center, eventually raising to a position of status and fighting off huge problematic enemies (Arishok), culminating in an epic battle to save the entire city of Kirkwall (and likely the rest of at least nearby world if not the whole world) from the ravages of Queen Demon god Meredith.

 

It culminates in some big things..but Hawke never sets out to be anything close to it. It's just an immigrant story to me, at it's base. And a lot of it is really just about finding a home or some sense of belonging (and not just Hawke. Most of the characters are seeking that).

 

Unlike DAI, where your godhood is almost declared within the hour. And you're literally a mysterious prisoner, like an Elder Scrolls game (but at least in TES, it seems like a long running joke on their part).

[Seraphim24]

It culminates in some big things. But it's just an immigrant story to me, at it's base. And a lot of it is really just about finding a home or some sense of belonging (and not just Hawke. Most of the characters are seeking that).

 

Unlike DAI, where you godhood is almost declared within the hour. And you're literally a prisoner, like an Elder Scrolls game (but at least in TES, it seems like a long running joke on their part).

 

Ok but in the Elder Scrolls Games such as Skyrim and Oblivion, you are also saving the world, every time, yes you start as a prisoner, you start as a cadet, you start as a maid, honestly we should just start as a maid in MEA as far as I'm concerned, plus lots of excuses for fanservice!

 

Anyway, yes you start off slow, and then you get the huge payoff at the end of ascending.

 

If DAI wasn't Save the World it's simply that it was a high ramping save the world, bam your a god. Dragon Age 2 kind of wants to make you feel the juice so to speak as you get to the very end there and just explode in power.

 

It's similar to Skyrim your life half-dragon Rawr they should of just made it so you could fly around the countryside as a dragon to be honest.

 

Not to mention, Dragon Age 2's supposed non-save the world was also met with the other core indices of Bioware games such as Graphical nerdy things and lots of jokes, etc.

[straykat]

Ok but in the Elder Scrolls Games, you are also saving the world, every time, yes you start as a prisoner, you start as a cadet, you start as a maid, honestly we should just start as a maid in MEA as far as I'm concerned, plus lots of excuses for fanservice!

 

Anyway, yes you start off slow, and then you get the huge payoff at the end of ascending.

 

If DAI wasn't Save the World it's simply that it was a high ramping save the world, bam your a god. Dragon Age 2 kind of wants to make you feel the juice so to speak as you get to the very end there and just explode in power.

 

It's similar to Skyrim your life half-dragon Rawr they should of just made it so you could fly around the countryside as a dragon to be honest.

 

Even then, you don't explode. You implode, and at the end all Hawke does is see problems. Never solves them. The best you can hope for is just that humble side of the story I mentioned. That you might have found belonging, somewhere.

[Seraphim24]

Even then, you don't explode. You implode, and at the end all Hawke does is see problems. Never solves them.

 

Hawke ends the reign of Queen dumbledemon.

[straykat]

Hawke ends the reign of Queen dumbledemon.

 

I think she's tragic. She's more than dumbledemon...although she's that too.

 

Which is another thing I'll bring up. Neither one are Loghain, but Arishok and Meredith come close. Better than Corypheus, for sure. They weren't trying to write Sauron with those type of villains (if you want to call them that).

[Seraphim24]

I think she's tragic. She's more than dumbledemon...although she's that too.

 

Which is another thing I'll bring up. Neither one are Loghain, but Arishok and Meredith come close. Better than Corypheus, for sure. They weren't trying to write Sauron with those type of villains (if you want to call them that).

 

Well yeah I definitely found Loghain more interesting than the later ones, culminating in Corypheus.

 

Like I said they don't have to abandon the notion, I mean wasn't Planescape Torment's enemy like ultimately "oneself" or some kind of thing that the M.S. Phil's from Cambridge go bananas over? (KIDDING JOKING HA), but even then the destruction of much is imminent due to the Transcendant one being the Transcendant one etc?

 

It can be this sort of introverted, heave haw sort of flavor to it, but I feel like save the world is the sacred cider that Bioware is afraid to touch because it's like "forbidden" and I'm just like give in lol.

[Seraphim24]

I think one of the issues is the time gap between Bioware, in it's later years and the people that made the games versus people coming up, who are less inhibited about I don't know lots of things.

 

I think the bigger issue though is not that it's impossible to harmonize between lots of these things, but this kind of stubborn refusal to evolve in that sense I'm alluding to like I say just embracing the save the world plot or whatever. I think I guess again that's possibly due to the above fact.

[Iakus]

It culminates in some big things..but Hawke never sets out to be anything close to it. It's just an immigrant story to me, at it's base. And a lot of it is really just about finding a home or some sense of belonging (and not just Hawke. Most of the characters are seeking that).

 

Unlike DAI, where your godhood is almost declared within the hour. And you're literally a mysterious prisoner, like an Elder Scrolls game (but at least in TES, it seems like a long running joke on their part).

And unfortunately, DA2 suffers from almost the exact opposite problem as DAI. If the Inquisitor is the ultimate virtually-a-god winner, Hawke is the can't-catch-a-break loser.

 

Hawke:

Loses both siblings (figuratively or literally)

Utterly fails to protect his/her mother, who also dies

Business venture gets wrekt by a dragon 

And ultimately loses the Amell family home (again) and possibly the viscountship by going into exile alone, without friends, family or LI

 

Games about choice need endings that are both winners and losers, and have stuff in between.

[Elhanan]

Still the most expensive video game ever developed, heavily advertised as the "WoW Killer". Less than a year after it was released it had to abandon it's subscription model and go free-to-play purely because not enough people subscribed to make it profitable. Four years after it's release the server populations flux from "light" to "standard". It's had a massive shot in the arm thanks to "The Force Awakens", but it will never reach the expectations that was placed on it, and with the changing nature of MMOs, especially with MOBAs, TOR seems like a vastly expensive mistake. Would EA have thrown the money and resources they did at it if they knew the outcome? Probably not. Just my opinion though.

Failing to meet expectations, and a failure as a MMO are not the same droids. Personally prefer devs to set their goals higher rather than lower, and go for the higher standard. And subs still abound; my own personal preference, too.

And as always, opinion =/= fact.

[vbibbi]

And unfortunately, DA2 suffers from almost the exact opposite problem as DAI. If the Inquisitor is the ultimate virtually-a-god winner, Hawke is the can't-catch-a-break loser.

 

Hawke:

Loses both siblings (figuratively or literally)

Utterly fails to protect his/her mother, who also dies

Business venture gets wrekt by a dragon 

And ultimately loses the Amell family home (again) and possibly the viscountship by going into exile alone, without friends, family or LI

 

Games about choice need endings that are both winners and losers, and have stuff in between.

 

At least we know that there was an alternative path planned for the mines plotline where we could save the mines from the dragon. I'm not sure why they decided to implement the "fail state" version over the successful version since they were short on time.

 

And Hawke doesn't necessarily go into exile alone, I believe all companions (except Aveline and possibly Varric) flee the city with a Hawke siding with the mages, it's just that they eventually part ways. And DAI makes it sound like Hawke hasn't abandoned his/her LI but is on a temporary leave of absence.

 

 

I'm trying to make their losing not quite so harsh...

 

 

And at least if they survive the Fade, their epilogue in Trespasser sounds like a happy ending.

[Iakus]

 

And Hawke doesn't necessarily go into exile alone, I believe all companions (except Aveline and possibly Varric) flee the city with a Hawke siding with the mages, it's just that they eventually part ways. And DAI makes it sound like Hawke hasn't abandoned his/her LI but is on a temporary leave of absence.

 

 

I'm trying to make their losing not quite so harsh...

 

Well, yeah, but it becomes quite clear in DAI that Varric was completely BS-ing Cassandra about what happened to Hawke, taking away even that bit of happiness.  That he did in fact leave alone specifically to draw the Templars/Red Templars away from the others.   

 

 

And at least if they survive the Fade, their epilogue in Trespasser sounds like a happy ending.

And after all that Hawke deserves a little something...

...at least in a DLC of another game...

[correctamundo]

Strawman, they name is idiotamundo.

 

No, that would not be my course of action. My course of action would be to not assume the mission is a suicide squad mission until there's something to actually indicate a suicide squad is actually needed.

 

Before the Reaper IFF is understood, there no application for a suicide squad at all. Once the IFF is understood, then we can replicate it- as Cerberus manages to in ME2 if you get the total failure/keep the base scenario- and send scouts through to figure out what we're up against.

 

Then, if the far side of the relay has any relevance for a suicide squad, we can send the squand in.

 

Ad hominem,

 

 

So you won't go on your sucide mission before you've sent some suicide scouts through the relay? Out of curiosity, just how many suicide scouts are you prepared to send through the Omega 4 relay before you give up and realise they're not coming back? To me Shepard, her motley crew and the Normandy seems like the preferable candidate for scouting the Omega relay.

[Seraphim24]

I'm pretty sure the Romans just around militaristically conquering most of the time, I'm not sure why they are used as the benchmarks for "logic" or "reason.."

 

Maybe because they were around a really long time ago?

[Iakus]

 

So you won't go on your sucide mission before you've sent some suicide scouts through the relay? Out of curiosity, just how many suicide scouts are you prepared to send through the Omega 4 relay before you give up and realise they're not coming back? To me Shepard, her motley crew and the Normandy seems like the preferable candidate for scouting the Omega relay.

None.

 

The Shadow Broker was able to send unmanned probes through the Omega IV Relay and retrieve information.  Why not Cerberus?

[vbibbi]

Well, yeah, but it becomes quite clear in DAI that Varric was completely BS-ing Cassandra about what happened to Hawke, taking away even that bit of happiness.  That he did in fact leave alone specifically to draw the Templars/Red Templars away from the others.   

 

And after all that Hawke deserves a little something...

...at least in a DLC of another game...

 

Well my hope is that Hawke and all of the DA2 companions are out of the picture, most likely indefinitely, so everyone can headcanon happy/unhappy endings for them as they feel. Unlike Morrigan and Solas and Dorian who will inevitably be in future games and subject to further Bioware character pain ™.

[correctamundo]

None.

 

The Shadow Broker was able to send unmanned probes through the Omega IV Relay and retrieve information.  Why not Cerberus?

 

Maybe Cerberus was not on the collectors pay-roll or maybe the Illusive man had already sent probes but wasn't telling Shepard. TIM doesn't really care for the colonists or the Normandy crew. Shepard most likely does. Shepard could of course say "up yours" to responsibility and go make love to Morinth instead. Or something else critical mission failurey. That is a possibility but I'm not sure if it makes for a fun game.  Maybe it does? Write it up and we'll see. ME2 as it stands now is a fun game though.

[Iakus]

Maybe Cerberus was not on the collectors pay-roll or maybe the Illusive man had already sent probes but wasn't telling Shepard. TIM doesn't really care for the colonists or the Normandy crew. Shepard most likely does. Shepard could of course say "up yours" to responsibility and go make love to Morinth instead. Or something else critical mission failurey. That is a possibility but I'm not sure if it makes for a fun game.  Maybe it does? Write it up and we'll see. ME2 as it stands now is a fun game though.

Then that makes Cerberus (and TIM) colossally stupid to send Shepard in unprepared.  

 

Death by snu-snu with Morinth?  Still better than how Mass Effect turned out

 

As of Now, ME2 is onyl fun in a "push a button and make something awesome happen" way.  As a story, it sucks.

[Addictress]

Large and sprawling dungeons that unfold and reveal themselves before you around sharp corners and locked doorways. Something DAI lacked imo.

 

All the way back to Baldur's Gate where they literally darkened areas and you "revealed" each area, and potential enemies therein, building a sense of anticipation and suspense. In DAI, everything was way out in the open. Even in temples, you could see the enemies roaming around in the distance. You didn't unlock chambers. 

 

In DA2, even, when you were in mansions and stuff, you'd go through each corridor, hallway, room, whatever, and each one would be a secret behind a sharp turn or a locked door.

 

It's a kind of level design thingy. They probably have terms for it. I don't know.

 

It baffles me they'd throw away such an essential part of what made the previous games so great.

[Natureguy85]

It doesn't change what's true, but I'd rather not assign labels like right or wrong based on something that doesn't matter.

Given the information available at the time, you drew a correct conclusion. That your conclusion was later shown not to match the facts doesn't change the correctness of the conclusion.

edit: HT to AlanC9

 

Yeah, that's how I saw it. I was right until the writer said I wasn't.

 

 

 

Well I think it was actually Starcraft 1 which had a mode called "Defense of the Ancients" (DotA) which was a mutliplayer mod map that basically just involved spamming tons of defense against huge waves of enemies.

 

The StarCraft one was called "Aeon of Strife."

 

 

Oh come on,    it's save the world in theme if not in fact.

 

Lonely wandering refugee named Hawke Skywalker scrubs and scraps to the top, meeting and mashing with people, left, right, and center, eventually raising to a position of status and fighting off huge problematic enemies (Arishok), culminating in an epic battle to save the entire city of Kirkwall (and likely the rest of at least nearby world if not the whole world) from the ravages of Queen Demon god Meredith.

 

There are no similarities between Hawke and Luke Skywalker. Hawke is just a guy seeking fame and fortune in a new city as he takes care of his family. Luke is a kid looking for adventure. There is no grand cause Hawke sees and wants to join, but Luke wants to fight for the Rebellion and become a Jedi. Luke goes out with a goal to get things done, particularly in the second half of the series. Hawke is either being nosy or has stuff happen to him.

 

 

I think she's tragic. She's more than dumbledemon...although she's that too.

 

Which is another thing I'll bring up. Neither one are Loghain, but Arishok and Meredith come close. Better than Corypheus, for sure. They weren't trying to write Sauron with those type of villains (if you want to call them that).

 

She was until they gave her the stupid Lyrium sword. Had that material and idol stayed in the picture instead of mostly dropping out, I could have bought it. I really liked Meredith as someone who was overzealous but had a legitimate concern. Kirkwall and its Circle had a serious blood mage problem. There was an abomination running around in the city. Her fear was legitimate even though her actions were only making things worse. Likewise, Orsino was great because he was resisting Meredith while still being somewhat respectful of her, but was lazy in policing his own. He's also ruined by turning into a monster at the end.

 

 

Ad hominem,

 

So you won't go on your sucide mission before you've sent some suicide scouts through the relay? Out of curiosity, just how many suicide scouts are you prepared to send through the Omega 4 relay before you give up and realise they're not coming back? To me Shepard, her motley crew and the Normandy seems like the preferable candidate for scouting the Omega relay.

 

What ad hominem? He called you a name but gave you an argument on the substance.

Anyway, why? The writers already took stealth away for no reason. Shepard clearly isn't just scouting the relay but is going through to actually fight.

 

 

None.

 

The Shadow Broker was able to send unmanned probes through the Omega IV Relay and retrieve information.  Why not Cerberus?

 

In fairness, that's an argument after the fact and the criticism should probably be pointed at LotSB.

 

 

Maybe Cerberus was not on the collectors pay-roll or maybe the Illusive man had already sent probes but wasn't telling Shepard. TIM doesn't really care for the colonists or the Normandy crew. Shepard most likely does. Shepard could of course say "up yours" to responsibility and go make love to Morinth instead. Or something else critical mission failurey. That is a possibility but I'm not sure if it makes for a fun game.  Maybe it does? Write it up and we'll see. ME2 as it stands now is a fun game though.

 

I agree that ME2 is fun but not because of its main plot.

[Seraphim24]

The StarCraft one was called "Aeon of Strife."

 

I "think"

 

Anyway, I think Dragon Age 2 just tries really, like, seriously, really hard to persuade you it's not a rags to riches, superhero saving the world experiences, but I'm just not buying it. Consequently, I am actually inclined to view it as a a very extreme form of the save the world power fantasy, almost everything in the game is focused explicitly on the player and their ascendance, stories/tensions/characters invariably revolve around Hawke, Hawke's needs, Hawke everything, heck how many times do they say "Hawke" in that game anyway, or talk about Hawke.

 

Dragon Age 2 is the only game in fact to pre-write the player's ascendance and make you aware of it within I don't know 0-5 seconds of starting up the game, and explicitly from the outset the notion of becoming champion, ultimate superhero, etc, and refer back to that at numerous points.

 

In fact, the only point against it is the lack of an explicit "Save the world of Thedas i.e. literally the galaxy is torn in half and all is doomed if" but it's a massive regional conflict that, but for the player's intervention, causes devastation on a scale of a region similar to a massive darkspawn invasion, which, is basically I seem to see most people consider equivalent to a "save the world" experience.

 

Plus if you look at the art style and stuff a lot of it is reminiscent of like Ancient Greek pottery art or thereabouts, I think it was designed to invoke an extremely grand scale such as rivaling that of an ancient empire or something.

 

So it doesn't have Leviathan popping out of the sea to "threaten everything" but the Arishok (after all the dialogue and such) is ultimately on a scale of possibly wiping out the city.

 

Like I said I just don't really buy that it's a story of anything other than inevitable ascent, but what I don't understand, is why does that even matter really?

 

As stated before, whether we're dealing with Dragon Age 1, 2, or 3, or ME1, 2, or 3, for that matter, I see them all as basically like "story driven" hence nothing is really lost or being ignored by pursuing that direction in ME.

[Natureguy85]

I "think"

 

Anyway, I think Dragon Age 2 just tries really, like, seriously, really hard to persuade you it's not a rags to riches, superhero saving the world experiences, but I'm just not buying it. Consequently, I am actually inclined to view it as a a very extreme form of the save the world power fantasy, almost everything in the game is focused explicitly on the player and their ascendance, stories/tensions/characters invariably revolve around Hawke, Hawke's needs, Hawke everything, heck how many times do they say "Hawke" in that game anyway, or talk about Hawke.

 

Dragon Age 2 is the only game in fact to pre-write the player's ascendance and make you aware of it within I don't know 0-5 seconds of starting up the game, and explicitly from the outset the notion of becoming champion, ultimate superhero, etc, and refer back to that at numerous points.

 

In fact, the only point against it is the lack of an explicit "Save the world of Thedas i.e. literally the galaxy is torn in half and all is doomed if" but it's a massive regional conflict that, but for the player's intervention, causes devastation on a scale of a region similar to a massive darkspawn invasion, which, is basically I seem to see most people consider equivalent to a "save the world" experience.

 

Plus if you look at the art style and stuff a lot of it is reminiscent of like Ancient Greek pottery art or thereabouts, I think it was designed to invoke an extremely grand scale such as rivaling that of an ancient empire or something.

 

So it doesn't have Leviathan popping out of the sea to "threaten everything" but the Arishok (after all the dialogue and such) is ultimately on a scale of possibly wiping out the city.

 

Like I said I just don't really buy that it's a story of anything other than inevitable ascent, but what I don't understand, is why does that even matter really?

 

As stated before, whether we're dealing with Dragon Age 1, 2, or 3, or ME1, 2, or 3, for that matter, I see them all as basically like "story driven" hence nothing is really lost or being ignored by pursuing that direction in ME.

 

The problem is that there is no "rags to riches" other than Hawke's house. The only place you might see the "superhero saving the world" is Hawke defeating the Arishok. Other than that, Hawke just sticks his nose into alot of problems, usually for money. The only time events actually revolve around Hawke is when the allied rebellion against Meredith kidnaps Hawke's sibling.

 

While you're right that the game starts by telling you that Hawke is the Champion, that's only said but never shown. There is a time skip right after Hawke becomes Champion. Where is Hawke living it up like a hero? All you see is Meredith and Orsino lobbying for your endorsement because Hawke is popular with the people, which you also never get to see. And even at the end, you have no idea why finding Hawke is so important. It seems like Cassandra is interested because Hawke was involved in the events that sparked the war.