847 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

The problem is that there is no "rags to riches" other than Hawke's house. The only place you might see the "superhero saving the world" is Hawke defeating the Arishok. Other than that, Hawke just sticks his nose into alot of problems, usually for money. The only time events actually revolve around Hawke is when the allied rebellion against Meredith kidnaps Hawke's sibling.

 

While you're right that the game starts by telling you that Hawke is the Champion, that's only said but never shown. There is a time skip right after Hawke becomes Champion. Where is Hawke living it up like a hero? All you see is Meredith and Orsino lobbying for your endorsement because Hawke is popular with the people, which you also never get to see. And even at the end, you have no idea why finding Hawke is so important. It seems like Cassandra is interested because Hawke was involved in the events that sparked the war.

 

I have to ask, but does this really matter? i feel like we're going in circles. We can go around in circles like this forever, I'd rather just not.

 

I'd much rather just know why it would matters whether it's a Save the World story or not, but no one appears to want to answer that.

[Natureguy85]

I have to ask, but does this really matter? i feel like we're going in circles. We can go around in circles like this forever, I'd rather just not.

 

I'd much rather just know why it would matters whether it's a Save the World story or not, but no one appears to want to answer that.

 

Hey, did you edit that? I thought it said something different and if you did, then it pulled the edit from my "multiquote" queue. That's cool if that's what it did.

 

Anyway, people get tired of "save the world" plots so there is some credit due to Bioware for trying something a bit different. The execution left a lot to be desired, but they took a risk.

[Seraphim24]

Hey, did you edit that? I thought it said something different and if you did, then it pulled the edit from my "multiquote" queue. That's cool if that's what it did.

 

Anyway, people get tired of "save the world" plots so there is some credit due to Bioware for trying something a bit different. The execution left a lot to be desired, but they took a risk.

 

Well I asked a permutation on the "why are we going on about this?" theme, slightly different in focus but essentially on the same topic. And yes in rare instances if you quote you can see pre-edited versions of things, I once saw someone clobbering Japanese game companies in a quote that vanished in the next thing lol.

 

I just mean at the end of the day there going to do whatever they're going to do and I'll like or not like it, I think I stated elsewhere it seemed as though DA2 did some things slightly differently that I liked, but I don't really see it as this unique snowflake divorced from other media in the world generally, many elements seem very familiar.

 

Obviously, lots of people feel differently or whatever and they'll go in that direction or not or whatever suppose.

[correctamundo]

What ad hominem? He called you a name but gave you an argument on the substance.

Anyway, why? The writers already took stealth away for no reason. Shepard clearly isn't just scouting the relay but is going through to actually fight.

 

I agree that ME2 is fun but not because of its main plot.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the stealth thing. Anyway they go through the relay more or less blind, ready to fight, but if that turns out impossible of course they would try to retreat. As it turns out they have a fighting chance.

 

As for the other thing about evidence lying around I'm sort of glad that we didn't get the inevitable evil genious evil plan disclosed in datapad.

 

I'm trying to come up with a game that is fun mainly because it's main plot but I'm drawing a blank.

[Natureguy85]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the stealth thing. Anyway they go through the relay more or less blind, ready to fight, but if that turns out impossible of course they would try to retreat. As it turns out they have a fighting chance.

 

As for the other thing about evidence lying around I'm sort of glad that we didn't get the inevitable evil genious evil plan disclosed in datapad.

 

I'm trying to come up with a game that is fun mainly because it's main plot but I'm drawing a blank.

 

I mean that stealth is what made the Normandy special in the first game and they established in the very first scene of the second game that the Collectors can detect the Normandy anyway.

 

 

Mainly because of its main plot? That might be pretty hard. However, Mass Effect 1's plot was pretty solid.

[Geralt of Relays]

Maybe Cerberus was not on the collectors pay-roll or maybe the Illusive man had already sent probes but wasn't telling Shepard. TIM doesn't really care for the colonists or the Normandy crew. Shepard most likely does. Shepard could of course say "up yours" to responsibility and go make love to Morinth instead. Or something else critical mission failurey. That is a possibility but I'm not sure if it makes for a fun game.  Maybe it does? Write it up and we'll see. ME2 as it stands now is a fun game though.

 

There is nothing in the game to substantiate any of those theories. It's not down to the reader/viewer/gamer to fill in these sort of gaps, that's the writer's job to make clear. When you have to fill in gaps of logic on your own, that's not really a good sign. Good writing should bring up audience questions on matters of ethics or character intention, and a few other facets, those are perfectly fine.

 

In fairness, that's an argument after the fact and the criticism should probably be pointed at LotSB.

 

This is another case in point of what I was meaning in my last post, because this was in LotSB it now "counts" and therefore makes Cerberus & the Normandy crew look dumber as a result. The left hand was not talking to the right hand in the writing department, this is one of the many results of that. The very fact that probing was made a mini game in ME2, makes it all the more galling no one gave a thought about how to explain why doing the same through the relay wasn't possible, even with the IFF.

 

I totally agree ME2 was fun to an extent, and I'd say it even had some of the best characters the studio have ever made, but it's all wasted being in the wrong story.

[correctamundo]

I mean that stealth is what made the Normandy special in the first game and they established in the very first scene of the second game that the Collectors can detect the Normandy anyway.

 

 

Mainly because of its main plot? That might be pretty hard. However, Mass Effect 1's plot was pretty solid.

 

Of course stealth! My brain got stuck in sneaking, crouching kind of stealth.

 

There is nothing in the game to substantiate any of those theories. It's not down to the reader/viewer/gamer to fill in these sort of gaps, that's the writer's job to make clear. When you have to fill in gaps of logic on your own, that's not really a good sign. Good writing should bring up audience questions on matters of ethics or character intention, and a few other facets, those are perfectly fine.

 

I hate when the game gives the player information the protagonist cannot possibly know.

[Natureguy85]

Of course stealth! My brain got stuck in sneaking, crouching kind of stealth.

 

 

I hate when the game gives the player information the protagonist cannot possibly know.

 

Ha, unfortunately we only got a taste of that in Kasumi's mission. I do like throwing those guys off the cliff though.

 

So you don't like cutscenes from any other character's perspective?

[correctamundo]

Ha, unfortunately we only got a taste of that in Kasumi's mission. I do like throwing those guys off the cliff though.

 

So you don't like cutscenes from any other character's perspective?

 

Arrival as well. =)

 

Nope I don't particularly like them cut scenes where the PC is not present. I can live with them if others find them important. So hate was probably an overly strong expression of my feelings for them but I want to build the story entirely from the protagonists point of view.

[Elhanan]

Arrival as well. =)
 
Nope I don't particularly like them cut scenes where the PC is not present. I can live with them if others find them important. So hate was probably an overly strong expression of my feelings for them but I want to build the story entirely from the protagonists point of view.

For me, it depends on the cut-scene. Still love the ones showing Loghain running afoul of the Bannorn, his daughter, and showing his growing depression in DAO. But some create friction between story, canon, and lore, and sometimes are problematic.

[Saladinbob1]

One thing this game needs a return to is an antagonist with a face. Far better than the Collector General or the Smoking Cerberus man, Saren played that part perfectly in the first game and was a character people could relate with and had at least some originality about him.

[vbibbi]

One thing this game needs a return to is an antagonist with a face. Far better than the Collector General or the Smoking Cerberus man, Saren played that part perfectly in the first game and was a character people could relate with and had at least some originality about him.

Really? My Shep had a personal rivalry with the Collector General. Seeing as we never met it face to face.

[straykat]

I liked the Collectors, but Saren was badass. And understandable, in his own warped way. Kind of like Loghain is understandable. I can see why Saren chose the path he did. It's the same reason some people choose Synthesis. I think they're crazy too, but whatever. I can still understand

 

I have a feeling this new game won't have a good villain though. With a faction known as the "Remnants", I expect more Ancient Bullshit.

[Gwydden]

I liked the Collectors, but Saren was badass. And understandable, in his own warped way. Kind of like Loghain is understandable. I can see why Saren chose the path he did. It's the same reason some people choose Synthesis. I think they're crazy too, but whatever. I can still understand

 

I have a feeling this new game won't have a good villain though. With a faction known as the "Remnants", I expect more Ancient Bullshit.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if a pharaoh look-alike rose from one of the ancient alien tombs, a la The Nameless City, and went all "MY NAME IS OZYMANDIAS, KING OF..." before being run over by the mako?

 

Who knows, there's a tiny chance they could've decided to go all Discworld on their own setting 

[Seraphim24]

Sorry, it looks like we moved on, but this was too good to pass up as far as summarizing the situation, which was Patton's speech to the third army.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._the_Third_Army

 

Which has, actually lots of swearing which is why I'm just linking it.

 

Yeah it was essentially about the contrast between hearing about America "not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war" and proceeding to himself declare that to be a bunch of um lets just say beeswax. 

 

I see similar logic in other media, generally speaking the "oh I don't want to fight, don't want to this, don't want to that" doesn't really mean that, in fact, as stated, and as Patton goes on to say, it's pretty much the complete and overwhelming opposite.

 

So yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking of with Hawke, not really buying the "lowly" immigrant trying to make their way, Hawke's personality is more like the love a winnner, won't tolerate a loser, play to win all the time, battle is the most significant act, etc

 

And I'll add finally again well I don't actually see why that's a big deal if they want to make that kind of character (not Patton obviously) but resembling some of that ethos, and I can say that I didn't like it as much as Dragon Age: Origins, which I perceived to be better in numerous respects, even if perhaps some other elements were slightly better, the overall impact and sort of "sum aggregate strength" was inferior and simply less.

 

Obviously lots of stuff there was just bad, but the idea of a "refuse to lose" sort of personality while not necessarily the most appealing, may at least earn attention and respect for the kind of..power or something.

[Saladinbob1]

I didn't dislike the collectors, I'm saying it was easier to relate to Saren than it was to the Collector General or Harbinger. The shame was that he wasn't the antagonist throughout the trilogy. The Hero is always defined by the Villain but how do you define a Hero when the Villain is a faceless robot? It's not about likes or dislikes, it's just about having a strong counterpoint to your character.

[straykat]

Sorry, it looks like we moved on, but this was too good to pass up as far as summarizing the situation, which was Patton's speech to the third army.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._the_Third_Army

 

Which has, actually lots of swearing which is why I'm just linking it.

 

Yeah it was essentially about the contrast between hearing about America "not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war" and proceeding to himself declare that to be a bunch of um lets just say beeswax. 

 

I see similar logic in other media, generally speaking the "oh I don't want to fight, don't want to this, don't want to that" doesn't really mean that, in fact, as stated, and as Patton goes on to say, it's pretty much the complete and overwhelming opposite.

 

So yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking of with Hawke, not really buying the "lowly" immigrant trying to make their way, Hawke's personality is more like the love a winnner, won't tolerate a loser, play to win all the time, battle is the most significant act, etc

 

And I'll add finally again well I don't actually see why that's a big deal if they want to make that kind of character (not Patton obviously) but resembling some of that ethos, and I can say that I didn't like it as much as Dragon Age: Origins, which I perceived to be better in numerous respects, even if perhaps some other elements were slightly better, the overall impact and sort of "sum aggregate strength" was inferior and simply less.

 

Well, America didn't want to fight the war at first. Nor did they want to fight WW1. They were isiolationists. And Patton was crazy. He beat up his own troops, when they had PTSD (PTSD as we would describe it now). Eisenhower demoted him for it.. His whole gung ho act was annoying even back then, in the midst of war.

[Natureguy85]

Sorry, it looks like we moved on, but this was too good to pass up as far as summarizing the situation, which was Patton's speech to the third army.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._the_Third_Army

 

Which has, actually lots of swearing which is why I'm just linking it.

 

Yeah it was essentially about the contrast between hearing about America "not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war" and proceeding to himself declare that to be a bunch of um lets just say beeswax. 

 

I see similar logic in other media, generally speaking the "oh I don't want to fight, don't want to this, don't want to that" doesn't really mean that, in fact, as stated, and as Patton goes on to say, it's pretty much the complete and overwhelming opposite.

 

So yeah that's kind of what I'm thinking of with Hawke, not really buying the "lowly" immigrant trying to make their way, Hawke's personality is more like the love a winnner, won't tolerate a loser, play to win all the time, battle is the most significant act, etc

 

And I'll add finally again well I don't actually see why that's a big deal if they want to make that kind of character (not Patton obviously) but resembling some of that ethos, and I can say that I didn't like it as much as Dragon Age: Origins, which I perceived to be better in numerous respects, even if perhaps some other elements were slightly better, the overall impact and sort of "sum aggregate strength" was inferior and simply less.

 

There's no question Hawke wanted more than to just get by, but why are you comparing a guy trying to climb the socioeconomic ladder of his new homeland to a man trying to win a war?

[Seraphim24]

Well, America didn't want to fight the war at first. Nor did they want to fight WW1. They were isiolationists. And Patton was crazy. He beat up his own troops, when they had PTSD (PTSD as we would describe it now). Eisenhower demoted him for it.. His whole gung ho act was annoying even back then, in the midst of war.

 

 

There's no question Hawke wanted more than to just get by, but why are you comparing a guy trying to climb the socioeconomic ladder of his new homeland to a man trying to win a war?

 

Well that's why I said (Not Patton obviously) as far as making characters true he was quite over the top in addition to the swearing and well I mean looking at the speech it's quite a mess for all kinds of reasons. 

 

But, the part about people saying Americans don't want to fight and calling that again ahem beeswax kind of struck a chord, there are definitely lots of people like that not just in America but wherever with the "not tolerate a loser, love a winner" sort of thing, even though they might say or pretend otherwise (I hate fighting, I never cared about being #1, etc)

 

Like ok, so (lets just say not Patton again, but just some generic kind of tough guy (or girl) personality) it might not be my favorite character, or many people's, but I'm just saying some of it all reminds me of Hawke (won't tolerate a loser, sort of thing), and like I think we all knows those kinds of personalities, and well, if nothing else I think they are entitled to at least some kind of respect for their charisma or ability to get people to follow them and/or things of that nature, even if saying they are rough around the edges for the rest of their personality isn't even the tenth of it.

 

And ultimately, if the only choice is between a pretend not version of it and the real deal, I'm not really sure why they shouldn't just be honest, given those two options. Hopefully they are as humane as can be as well, but like saying Hawke is would be kind of a stretch, Hawke just basically tears apart anyone and everyone they come across verbally at least.

 

Given that the theme for all the DLC and really DA:I and just everywhere in Bioware (cancelling Shadow Realms, etc) I feel as though that basically is the choice, the pretend not and the real deal, but the same themes.

 

I mean, I even stated I still found Origins superior to 2 for many reasons, or in an ME context that might 1 over 2, but that just doesn't seem to be the identity of the company at this point, or the fanbase, or people on the forums, etc, the people looking for other sorts of things have mostly disapparated.

[straykat]

Well that's why I said (Not Patton obviously) as far as making characters true he was quite over the top in addition to the swearing and well I mean looking at the speech it's quite a mess for all kinds of reasons. 

 

But, the part about people saying Americans don't want to fight and calling that again ahem beeswax kind of struck a chord, there are definitely lots of people like that not just in America but wherever with the "not tolerate a loser, love a winner" sort of thing, even though they might say or pretend otherwise (I hate fighting, I never cared about being #1, etc)

 

Like ok, so (lets just say not Patton again, but just some generic kind of tough guy personality) it might not be my favorite character, or many people's, but I'm just saying some of it all reminds me of Hawke (won't tolerate a loser, sort of thing), and like I think we all knows those kinds of personalities, and well, if nothing else I think they are entitled to at least some kind of respect for their charisma or ability to get people to follow them and/or things of that nature, even if saying they are rough around the edges for the rest of their personality isn't even the tenth of it.

 

And ultimately, if the only choice is between a pretend not version of it and the real deal, I'm not really sure why they shouldn't just be honest, given those two options.

 

Given that the theme for all the DLC and really DA:I and just everywhere in Bioware (cancelling Shadow Realms, etc) I feel as though that basically is the choice, the pretend not and the real deal.

 

There are people like it now, but I'm just saying he was off his rocker for the time. People were isolationists, and America wasn't a global power and barely had any wars.. foreign or otherwise. There was the occassional Patton and Teddy Roosevelt, but people wanted to do their own things. And the Civil War still brought up bad memories by the turn of the century. While with WW2, WW1 brought up bad memories.

 

I think he was genuinely crazy. He thought he was some reincarnated soldier from Napoleon's army, he deliberately diverted his troops into the most dangerous areas because it was "glorious", and he slapped around guys who lost their minds from PTSD.

[Natureguy85]

Well that's why I said (Not Patton obviously) as far as making characters true he was quite over the top in addition to the swearing and well I mean looking at the speech it's quite a mess for all kinds of reasons. 

 

But, the part about people saying Americans don't want to fight and calling that again ahem beeswax kind of struck a chord, there are definitely lots of people like that not just in America but wherever with the "not tolerate a loser, love a winner" sort of thing, even though they might say or pretend otherwise (I hate fighting, I never cared about being #1, etc)

 

Like ok, so (lets just say not Patton again, but just some generic kind of tough guy (or girl) personality) it might not be my favorite character, or many people's, but I'm just saying some of it all reminds me of Hawke (won't tolerate a loser, sort of thing), and like I think we all knows those kinds of personalities, and well, if nothing else I think they are entitled to at least some kind of respect for their charisma or ability to get people to follow them and/or things of that nature, even if saying they are rough around the edges for the rest of their personality isn't even the tenth of it.

 

And ultimately, if the only choice is between a pretend not version of it and the real deal, I'm not really sure why they shouldn't just be honest, given those two options.

 

Given that the theme for all the DLC and really DA:I and just everywhere in Bioware (cancelling Shadow Realms, etc) I feel as though that basically is the choice, the pretend not and the real deal, but the same themes.

 

Well Hawke clearly likes being in the middle of things. Maybe they should have done a "be careful what you wish for" story. It would have been a lot better if Hawke's first sibling had died protecting Hawke or because Hawke failed somehow. It would have been better if Leandra had died as a result of something Hawke did.

[Seraphim24]

There are people like it now, but I'm just saying he was off his rocker for the time. People were isolationists, and America wasn't a global power and barely had any wars.. foreign or otherwise. There was the occassional Patton and Teddy Roosevelt, but people wanted to do their own things. And the Civil War still brought up bad memories by the turn of the century. While with WW2, WW1 brought up bad memories.

 

I think he was genuinely crazy. He thought he was some reincarnated soldier from Napoleon's army, he deliberately diverted his troops into the most dangerous areas because it was "glorious", and he slapped around guys who lost their minds from PTSD.

 

I don't know kat, I mean, agian lets just forget Patton because too much there but like just some generic super tough (and lets say girl) and that was kind of grandeur on the mind, I feel like Hawke is the kind of person to get diverted into wildly over the top fantasies, etc, although I guess it's not really verbal but if she suddenly broke out into "I am the first Queen of the Dales returned!" and then another character is like "What are you going on about Hawke" and someone else "just let her go, it's her thing" that wouldn't shock me at all.

 

 

Well Hawke clearly likes being in the middle of things. Maybe they should have done a "be careful what you wish for" story. It would have been a lot better if Hawke's first sibling had died protecting Hawke or because Hawke failed somehow. It would have been better if Leandra had died as a result of something Hawke did.

 

Well maybe sure.

 

But I was going to get around to the topic of this thread, which is that Bioware is in my opinion keeps trying to placate the increasingly phantom BG/NWN (almost mythical) fanbase or whatever that wants DA:I to be an RPG, when really DA:I was basically DA2 with bits of Skyrim taped to it and not really very close to an RPG.

 

In fact the supposed chief BG1 proponent here "Sylivus the Mad" hasn't even finished BG1 lol, most people I know that were into BG1 have kind of moved on to other things.

 

In my opinion, their futile struggle to make an apple look like an orange is well, maybe a waste at this point.

 

Something to consider, I don't profess to speak for all NWN fans or people who were more on the "gamey" dimension, I imagine they'll speak for themselves, but my experience is that at least some of those NWN/BG types of fans have actually found games that are satisfying to them on a game/story combination dimension.

 

Not only that, some people who like preferred Origins still found a way to enjoy 2.

[straykat]

I don't know kat, I mean, agian lets just forget Patton because too much there but like just some generic super tough (and lets say girl) and that was kind of grandeur on the mind, I feel like Hawke is the kind of person to get diverted into wildly over the top fantasies, etc, although I guess it's not really verbal but if she suddenly broke out into "I am the first Queen of the Dales returned!" and then another character is like "What are you going on about Hawke" and someone else "just let her go, it's her thing" that wouldn't shock me at all.

 

 

You know what? I'm losing track of how this even ties into DA. Maybe you're on to something. I have no clue

 

I just wanted to say that Americans were isolationists back then. War was truly hell...except for the mad.

[Seraphim24]

You know what? I'm losing track of how this even ties into DA. Maybe you're on to something. I have no clue

 

I just wanted to say that Americans were isolationists back then. War was truly hell...except for the mad.

 

Well you could tie it into ME and have a character who firmly believes they are the re-incarnation of a Prothean god and demands that food be served to their mouth since it is demeaning for them to eat it themselves, or wakes you up in the middle of the night to make sure you know that "The gillies (a term used to refer to her imaginary space fish friends) are reporting on a disturbance in the far south, and the ship should be turned around in the next chance"

 

And then it turns out there are really is an attack by the whatevers and (again, lets say, she) is really capable at getting the ship and crew together randomly.

 

I don't know, female Minsc in space?

 

I just wanted to say, when someone says "I don't care about X" I might er, well, second guess them, just a bit, depending.

[Natureguy85]

I don't know, female Minsc in space?

 

Well, there is a space hamster.