847 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

Well you could tie it into ME and have a character who firmly believes they are the re-incarnation of a Prothean god and demands that food be served to their mouth since it is demeaning for them to eat it themselves, or wakes you up in the middle of the night to make sure you know that "The gillies (a term used to refer to her imaginary space fish friends) are reporting on a disturbance in the far south, and the ship should be turned around in the next chance"

 

And then it turns out there are really is an attack by the whatevers and (again, lets say, she) is really capable at getting the ship and crew together randomly.

 

I don't know, female Minsc in space?

 

I just wanted to say, when someone says "I don't care about X" I might er, well, second guess them, just a bit, depending.

 

Do you mean me? Because it's not that I don't care about anything. I was just backing out of the thread. I only wanted to say that Americans aren't like Patton.

 

A large segment of leadership in that era had no respect for individuals.. it's why those wars were so ghastly. People and soldiers viewed as expendable. But I consider upholding the dignity of the individual the true American trait.

[DuskWanderer]

I want the focus to be on the story, but I think BioWARE is going to go full SJW and right a bunch of nonsensical faffs about how someone is this strange thing or that and the people are so "marginalized"

[AlanC9]

Anyone who uses the term SJW probably shouldn't bother following Bio games.

[AlanC9]

Do you mean me? Because it's not that I don't care about anything. I was just backing out of the thread. I only wanted to say that Americans aren't like Patton.

A large segment of leadership in that era had no respect for individuals.. it's why those wars were so ghastly. People and soldiers viewed as expendable. But I consider upholding the dignity of the individual the true American trait.

That's a bit unfair to Patton ; his rhetoric might have been bloodthirsty, but his generalship typically wasn't the sort to waste lives.

[AlanC9]

But I was going to get around to the topic of this thread, which is that Bioware is in my opinion keeps trying to placate the increasingly phantom BG/NWN (almost mythical) fanbase or whatever that wants DA:I to be an RPG, when really DA:I was basically DA2 with bits of Skyrim taped to it and not really very close to an RPG.

I've lost track. For purposes of this thread we're defining DA2 and Skyrim as non-RPGs while NWN is an RPG?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Anyone who uses the term SJW probably shouldn't bother following Bio games.

I refuse to accept that SJW is a perjorative term.

[KirkyX]

I refuse to accept that SJW is a perjorative term.

I know, right? The term in isolation seems pretty complimentary, to me.

 

Honestly, at this point, I just find it impossible to take anyone who uses 'SJW' - in the, 'Wah, wah, they're taking away mah vidya games!' sense - seriously. It's the ultimate signifier of Internet idiocy.

 

The **** people like that do - doxxing, harassment, general shitty misogyny - is plenty serious, but the people themselves? Nah.

[KirkyX]

I want the focus to be on the story, but I think BioWARE is going to go full SJW and right a bunch of nonsensical faffs about how someone is this strange thing or that and the people are so "marginalized"

Right, so what you're saying is, you'd like it to be story-focused, but only so long as that story doesn't offend your particular sensibilities?

 

Huh.

[straykat]

That's a bit unfair to Patton ; his rhetoric might have been bloodthirsty, but his generalship typically wasn't the sort to waste lives.

 

When he deliberately takes the more dangerous paths, just for the fun of it.. then I think he's careless about people.

 

Certainly not as bad as the rulers of WW1 though. And some of the generals. But I think he's a man who came from that world. He learned from the worst. Same with MacArthur.

[Natureguy85]

I'd prefer to take it as a compliment, but honestly, I just find it impossible to take anyone who uses 'SJW' unironically, seriously, anyway. It's the ultimate signifier of Internet idiocy. The **** they do - doxxing, harassment, general bottom-feeding misogyny - is plenty serious, but the people? Nah.

 

Most people who use the term as an insult don't do those things. Like the people they argue with, they mostly just blab on the internet.

 

 

Right, so what you're saying is you'd like it to be story-focused, but only so long as that story doesn't offend your particular sensibilities?

 

Huh.

 

Well he's talking more about characters than main story but there's a fine line between having a point to a story and having an agenda behind it. If people feel like you're on the latter side, they generally don't like it.

[straykat]

I'll use the term occassionally, to mock things. But I still appreciate "social justice".

 

I just think half of things associated with games are kind of silly. Or media in general. There are some truly repugnant things going on in the world, y'know. That some game has a white male protagonist isn't really on my list of concerns (and I'm not even a white male).

 

The only positive thing I could say is maybe things are looking up, if this is the kind of stuff that bothers people now. Gone are the days of genocide and slavery. We can relax and dwell on trivial matters now.

 

Oh wait... those aren't gone either.

[Cyonan]

I know, right? The term in isolation seems pretty complimentary, to me.

 

Honestly, at this point, I just find it impossible to take anyone who uses 'SJW' - in the, 'Wah, wah, they're taking away mah vidya games!' sense - seriously. It's the ultimate signifier of Internet idiocy.

 

The **** people like that do - doxxing, harassment, general shitty misogyny - is plenty serious, but the people? Nah.

 

To be fair, SJW simply is just the best term to describe some people because most will know what I mean when I use it. I could also use the term idiot to describe them, but that's a more generalized term.

 

It's not about "They're taking away mah vidya games!" but rather those that complain about things like "misogyny" everywhere. If it doesn't exist then they try to create it so they can complain about it, which wouldn't be the first topic people have done that to and I doubt it will be the last. They don't play the games so they don't even know the context of it. All they know is some guy in Dragon Age Origins acted like a ****** to a female city elf protagonist. Never mind that the female city elf then goes on to save herself and can even kill the guy 5 minutes later, that's apparently a horrible scene that makes women look weak and in need of protecting.

 

It's about the ones who get developers to change a character's pose because they're offended that the character has a nice butt that's being showed off by her outfit rather than the pose. The ones who act like women in video games shouldn't ever do anything that might be interpreted as sexy by men, because that might result in men making inappropriate comments on the internet.

 

and yes, both of the things I allude to being issues in this post are things that actually happened. Those are the types I'll use the SJW label as an insult on.

[straykat]

Y'know.. I get the feeling it has nothing to do with justice and more about being idle.. coupled with the propensity to sit online or dwell on facebook related stuff.

 

I can't put my finger on it.. I''m not articulating it right. It's just that people get worked up over small things more than they used to. And maybe this is related.

[KirkyX]

I'll use the term occassionally, to mock things. But I still appreciate "social justice".

 

I just think half of things associated with games are kind of silly. Or media in general. There are some truly repugnant things going on in the world, y'know. That some game has a white male protagonist isn't really on my list of concerns (and I'm not even a white male).

 

The only positive thing I could say is maybe things are looking up, if this is the kind of stuff that bothers people now. Gone are the days of genocide and slavery. We can relax and dwell on trivial matters now.

 

Oh wait... those aren't gone either.

I see where you're coming from, but there's room in most people's lives to be worried about more than one thing. And honestly, my main concern over games  - along with, well, pretty much everything else - having masses of white, male protagonists is more to do with my wanting a bit more variety than it is repping some cause. I count a game having, for example, a woman as the protagonist as a plus simply because it isn't a perspective I see as often in the medium.

[KirkyX]

Most people who use the term as an insult don't do those things. Like the people they argue with, they mostly just blab on the internet.

 

 

 

Well he's talking more about characters than main story but there's a fine line between having a point to a story and having an agenda behind it. If people feel like you're on the latter side, they generally don't like it.

The problem is, whether you see a story as having an agenda is, in large part, going to depend on your own agenda. And besides, as long as a character's decently well done, I don't really mind if the writer put them there because they wanted to make a point. 

[straykat]

I see where you're coming from, but there's room in most people's lives to be worried about more than one thing. And honestly, my main concern over games  - along with, well, pretty much everything else - having masses of white, male protagonists is more to do with my wanting a bit more variety than it is repping some cause. I count a game having, for example, a woman as the protagonist as a plus simply because it isn't a perspective I see as often in the medium.

 

I could use more female protagonists too.

 

On the plus side, the games that had female protags entertained me for the most part. Tomb Raider, FF/Lightning, Beyond Good and Evil, partly Resident Evil, Metroid, etc..

 

The list goes on. There's a lot of good ones. There's a downside to having such a large number of white male protags. Because there's so many bad games too. Somehow females have escaped that.

[KirkyX]

To be fair, SJW simply is just the best term to describe some people because most will know what I mean when I use it. I could also use the term idiot to describe them, but that's a more generalized term.

 

It's not about "They're taking away mah vidya games!" but rather those that complain about things like "misogyny" everywhere. If it doesn't exist then they try to create it so they can complain about it, which wouldn't be the first topic people have done that to and I doubt it will be the last. They don't play the games so they don't even know the context of it. All they know is some guy in Dragon Age Origins acted like a ****** to a female city elf protagonist. Never mind that the female city elf then goes on to save herself and can even kill the guy 5 minutes later, that's apparently a horrible scene that makes women look weak and in need of protecting.

 

It's about the ones who get developers to change a character's pose because they're offended that the character has a nice butt that's being showed off by her outfit rather than the pose. The ones who act like women in video games shouldn't ever do anything that might be interpreted as sexy by men, because that might result in men making inappropriate comments on the internet.

 

and yes, both of the things I allude to being issues in this post are things that actually happened. Those are the types I'll use the SJW label as an insult on.

To address your second example: Man, I saw a lot - a lot - more whining about the pose being taken out than there ever was about the pose in the first place. And I have absolutely no trouble believing that Blizzard planned to change it even before that one Reddit post--the turnover was quick, and the new pose is just as risque as the old one: it's just also a bit more fun.

 

(My position on that whole dumb controversy is that I prefer the second pose, didn't really mind the first, and am generally bummed - pun intended - that this whole 'debate' has reduced popular perception of Tracer's character from 'genki girl, cockney teleporting fighter pilot' to 'butt girl'.)

[KirkyX]

I could use more female protagonists too.

 

On the plus side, the games that had female protags entertained me for the most part. Tomb Raider, FF/Lightning, Beyond Good and Evil, partly Resident Evil, Metroid, etc..

 

The list goes on. There's a lot of good ones. There's a downside to having such a large number of white male protags. Because there's so many bad games too. Somehow females have escaped that.

Yeah. It's just, I dunno, something I appreciate. Same with Rey in TFA--I was just glad that the hero, of one of the biggest entertainment franchises in history, was a woman for a change. That's not something that happens all that often.

[straykat]

To address your second example: Man, I saw a lot - a lot - more whining about the pose being taken out than there ever was about the pose in the first place. And I have absolutely no trouble believing that Blizzard planned to change it even before that one Reddit post--the turnover was quick, and the new pose is just as risque as the old one: it's just also a bit more fun.

 

(My position on that whole dumb controversy is that I prefer the second pose, didn't really mind the first, and am generally bummed - pun intended - that this whole 'debate' has reduced popular perception of Tracer's character from 'genki girl, cockney teleporting fighter pilot' to,'butt girl'.

 

The difference is which whining actually had the power to change things.

 

But besides that, I don't think either of them should have that power. I think artists should do what they want. For better or worse. Else we might as well slide into fascism or a collectivist state.. or some backwater like Saudi Arabia. Where our media is dictated to us from "our betters".

 

That might sound dramatic, but I'm not trying to be.

[Cyonan]

To address your second example: Man, I saw a lot - a lot - more whining about the pose being taken out than there ever was about the pose in the first place. And I have absolutely no trouble believing that Blizzard planned to change it even before that one Reddit post--the turnover was quick, and the new pose is just as risque as the old one: it's just also a bit more fun.

 

(My position on that whole dumb controversy is that I prefer the second pose, didn't really mind the first, and am generally bummed - pun intended - that this whole 'debate' has reduced popular perception of Tracer's character from 'genki girl, cockney teleporting fighter pilot' to,'butt girl'.

 

You saw more because Blizzard literally changed it after one complaint. Of course there was going to be more complaining about it because regardless of if it's believable that they were already planning a change, it looked like they were changing it as a result of a person on the forums complaining. Especially after the first response they gave to it being "We'll change it".

 

After that, there really wasn't a way out of it for Blizzard that made them look the slightest bit good except to make the new pose just as risque as the old one. Again, regardless of it they actually originally planned to or not.

 

In either case the point is that while the term SJW might get thrown around a bit too readily like many terms on the internet, there are people it really does apply to. It just doesn't apply to those who simply want more interesting characters who aren't straight white grizzled guys with short brown hair.

[Natureguy85]

I'll use the term occassionally, to mock things. But I still appreciate "social justice".

 

I just think half of things associated with games are kind of silly. Or media in general. There are some truly repugnant things going on in the world, y'know. That some game has a white male protagonist isn't really on my list of concerns (and I'm not even a white male).

 

The only positive thing I could say is maybe things are looking up, if this is the kind of stuff that bothers people now. Gone are the days of genocide and slavery. We can relax and dwell on trivial matters now.

 

Oh wait... those aren't gone either.

 

 

http://assets.amuniv...26700163e41dd5b

 

It wouldn't let me post the pic

 

 

When the term "social justice" is used more broadly beyond whining about women or homosexuals in games, it's usually a cover term for Marxism, which is where I have a greater problem with it.

 

 

The problem is, whether you see a story as having an agenda is, in large part, going to depend on your own agenda. And besides, as long as a character's decently well done, I don't really mind if the writer put them there because they wanted to make a point. 

 

That's very true. A lot has to do with how well done it is.

 

 

I could use more female protagonists too.

 

On the plus side, the games that had female protags entertained me for the most part. Tomb Raider, FF/Lightning, Beyond Good and Evil, partly Resident Evil, Metroid, etc..

 

The list goes on. There's a lot of good ones. There's a downside to having such a large number of white male protags. Because there's so many bad games too. Somehow females have escaped that.

 

Bold added by me. I don't really care. I am perfectly happy to play a female character, but I don't think "oh boy, a woman." I like good characters. The problem with the above attitude I bolded is that it has the focus on the gender, rather than being a good character that is female.

[KirkyX]

The difference is which whining actually had the power to change things.

 

But besides that, I don't think either of them should have that power. I think artists should do what they want. For better or worse. Else we might as well slide into fascism or a collectivist state.. or some backwater like Saudi Arabia. Where our media is dictated to us from "our betters".

 

That might sound dramatic, but I'm not trying to be.

Ah, but that's the thing: I really, honestly don't believe the original complaint actually changed anything--Blizzard said they planned on changing the pose, and I believe them. I feel like, if they'd actually been worried about offending people, they wouldn't have made the second pose just as risque as the first. 

 

And we're actually in pretty much complete agreement on your second point--I just find it kind of daft that the 'other side', as it were, tend to frame their arguments as fighting for creative freedom when, in fact, they're trying to influence the developers, and have games fit into their own specific perception of what 'should be', just as much as anyone else.

[straykat]

Ah, but that's the thing: I really, honestly don't believe the original complaint actually changed anything--Blizzard said they planned on changing the pose, and I believe them. I feel like, if they'd actually been worried about offending people, they wouldn't have made the second pose just as risque as the first.

 

And we're actually in pretty much complete agreement on your second point--I just find it kind of daft that the 'other side', as it were, tend to frame their arguments as fighting for creative freedom when, in fact, they're trying to influence the developers, and have games fit into their own specific perception of what 'should be', just as much as anyone else.

 

I'll take your word for it. I'm not even keeping up with that specific game.. never played a "DOTA" yet either. I'm just going on what I glean from around here.

[KirkyX]

http://assets.amuniv...26700163e41dd5b

 

It wouldn't let me post the pic

 

 

When the term "social justice" is used more broadly beyond whining about women or homosexuals in games, it's usually a cover term for Marxism, which is where I have a greater problem with it.

 

 

 

That's very true. A lot has to do with how well done it is.

 

 

 

Bold added by me. I don't really care. I am perfectly happy to play a female character, but I don't think "oh boy, a woman." I like good characters. The problem with the above attitude I bolded is that it has the focus on the gender, rather than being a good character that is female.

I'm a European Democratic Socialist - which, to be clear, actually isn't anything like Marxism in reality, but still - so we're back to agendas again. I believe in a strong welfare state, nationalised healthcare - neither particularly controversial positions where I come from - and so on.

 

The issue with completely ignoring gender as a factor is that, since the default in video games, and quite a few other varieties of media, has historically been, well, 'white and male', if gender is ignored, we'll always gravitate towards that status quo.

 

To clarify my original position: it's not that I can't enjoy games where I play as white dudes - The Witcher 3, to pull a recent example, is one of my all-time favourites, and I specifically love Geralt (I've read the books.) - but I appreciate playing as a woman because it simply isn't something I get to do very often. Hence why one of the hardest decisions I have to make when starting a new Mass Effect playthough is, 'Romance Tali, or play femshep?'.

[KirkyX]

I'll take your word for it. I'm not even keeping up with that specific game.. never played a "DOTA" yet either. I'm just going on what I glean from around here.

I'm terrible at team-based shooters, so I'm just watching the animated shorts. Blizzard have a real knack for creating iconic character designs.

Oh, and some of the music puts me in mind of a slightly more sombre version of the Pacific Rim soundtrack, which is a always good.