12 réponses à ce sujet

[Lance Botelle]

Hi All,
 
I'm not sure how much of a building community actually remains now, but I, for one, do hope to continue while I can ... and as long as my interest and own life position does not change too much. Anyway, the point being, as I consider what I would do differently, I thought I would also get feedback from other players and builders with respect to the same.
 
For instance, in my experiences, I find there are some things that I consider inherently "uncomfortable" to play. In my "module post", (http://forum.bioware...-part-9/page-17), I alluded to my frustrations with the path-finding issues I encountered. However, I am also considering some other aspects too ... and suggest some of these, and ask what other aspects of the game builders and players would like to be "different".

 

NOTE: These are not "set in stone", and are examples of how things might improve the experience. I am asking you guys to come back with what you would like to change if possible.

 

1) PATH-FINDING: I believe NWN needs its areas to be more "roomy" to enable better combat situations to be had, as well as avoiding "stuck" positions.

 

2) SMALLER PARTY: Combined with the above issue, I do wonder if having a smaller party would be easier to control within the game environment. (With respect to actual moving around.)

 

3) STREAMILINING: Can a game be too involved ... or stretched too thinly? What gaming aspects would you consider as "superfluous" or "essential"?

 

4) INTERFACE CHANGES: How would you like your user interfaces to look and play? What about a complete overhaul of the interfaces, designed to suit an updated game environment?

 

The bottom line is that the game is old now, but I believe it still has room for growth and improvement, if we consider some of these design changes (perhaps)?

 

There is, of course, a degree of variance of requirements, subject to the type of module one is building/playing. So, let that be another question ... Which style of module best suits the NWN game engine?

 

Describe what kind of module you would like to see and play that can use the NWN engine ... and with what kind of differences (or similarities) to those modules you have already played.

 

I know all gameplay preferences is subjective, but it would be good to get a feel for the kind of module players and builders would like to play ... if they could help direct resources.

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[Tchos]

1. In general, yes, but I believe it can be a valid part of the design of a combat situation for it to be difficult to position your combatants, or to reach your enemies.  Likewise, the player should be able to take advantage of tight areas and choke points to control the flow of the battle as well, which can't be done in wide open areas.  In at least exterior areas, there are ways to prevent the "stuck" situation from occurring, and I wish Dann would come back and explain how he found to do it in interiors, too.

 

2. I prefer a well-rounded party, so no.  Don't restrict the gameplay for pathfinding reasons.

 

3. It really depends.

 

4. With everything made bigger for easier readability and scaled to fit a larger display resolution, but I already did that.

 

X. I like a variety of modules, but I especially like exploration, unique-looking areas, a well-detailed world that doesn't infodump its backstory at you with long books, environmental interaction, colourful characters, and text with good spelling and grammar.

[andysks]

Here's my thoughts on this. In my opinion a module will always have a 50% chance to be good or bad in anyone's eyes. There is no way to guarantee a quality of all upcoming works by doing surveys on the remaining players. Now, with that said I'll talk about your points.

 

1) It's something every builder finds out the bad way. When we all first played the OC we thought that the rooms were a bit too big, and while building our own modules we try to make them "nicer", only to find out that the pathfinding algorithms struggle. To be honest though, even if a module I played has tight spaces, it usually is the issue only on 1-2 areas, something I can live with.

2) Personal taste. Some people like to play with 5 member parties, some with 6 or solo. As I said in the beginning, no survey will show you a good result to base a next work on it. I personally thought that the OC had one member too little. Still, personal taste.

3)Same here. One day I might like to play a dungeon crawler module, the next a no-fighting story driven.

4) I like the game as it is, with small additions like Tchos' UI. Things that do not change how the game looks, but provide some subtle help.

 

You ask Which module style fits best. Builders have provided a huge range of styles, and all styles got good ratings in the old vault. From solo modules, ones that take place in the future, or big works in the style of the OC. The engine is powerful and we are lucky to have it and exploit it in any way we can. You yourself found a way to put movies mid-module. Another person (sorry don't remember who), recently found a way to eliminate the spell animations for a more fast-paced kill them all kind of module I suppose. So bottom line, if done good anything can be good.

 

As for your last question, I'd be happy to see more big modules OC style. World map, companions, storyline and choices, different paths of completion etc. Of course I realize that it takes a huge amount of time, and probably it is the reason most builders prefer to build +-10 hour modules, but it's just something I hope to see more off in the future. And I personally, and this is only my humble opinion, dislike modules that force me to play a specific class or race and so on. One part I like the most in RPG games is creating my character as I feel like it. I'm not talking about prestige classes taken out of a setting because they don't fit. More for things like "Play a cleric (or whatever) because that is how the story wants". It's just not my type of module.

[rjshae]

I pretty much agree with the above comments.   Walkpathing issues are definitely a nuisance since they break the immersion and require micromanagement. But I do like having some interesting terrain for placed encounters, which may result in congestion. For a party size I like having five: a balance of one each of the core classes (or a variant thereof: druid instead of cleric, etc.), plus whatever class I choose for my PC. The particular details of the interface isn't super important to me, as long as it doesn't get in the way.

 

What I typically enjoy during game play is novelty; unusual situations, challenging tactical positions, unexpected events, unique environments, and interesting decor. I like good sound and light placement, attention to detail in the environment, nicely implemented special effects, just enough medium-length side quests to break up a sense of linearity, and well-developed companions.

[Arkalezth]

I agree with Andy in that a handful of players (or module builders) aren't going to represent the gaming world, but since I'm already here...

 

1) I think they should be roomy enough in general, but that doesn't require much, and there can be a variety. IMO, it's more important to be realistic (houses shouldn't be castle-sized), and to make areas feel "used" (no big rooms which are mostly empty).

 

2) Easier to control, sure. Better, that depends. I dislike micromanaging, so more than 4 members or so is a bit of a chore, even with the AI on.

 

The Maimed God's Saga has a single companion, which results in him/her being more deep and relevant to the story than most, and I never felt like I needed an extra companion of x class to make the game work. Solo modules are viable too (Moonshadows), and arguably a better option in some cases (a module for rogues or assassins, for example).

 

3) Not sure I understand the first part of the question. At any rate, I agree that it depends on the type of module. The most essential aspect is that it should be fun... but that's like saying nothing.

 

4) I use a mod that makes the interface less invasive, as well as Tchos' stuff. I can't really think of anything else I "need" right now, but I suppose there are other little things that can be improved to some extent.

 

I can tell you what I don't want, though: I don't want a module forcing an interface overhaul on me (because I may not like it), and I don't want an interface that I can only use in one module, and then going back to the old one afterwards.

 

PS:

And I personally, and this is only my humble opinion, dislike modules that force me to play a specific class or race and so on.

I love those types of modules myself, and count some of them among my favourites, for both games. To each their own.

[Lance Botelle]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I have often considered a "single avatar" approach, where the player may pick up one or two companions along the way. However, there's also a side of me that likes the idea of the bigger party too. I think the problem arises when you start to include animal companions, familiars, henchmen and summons, etal. I have found this can really start to cramp a game, especially with larger groups, each with their own "followers". At these times, there is something to be said for having just "one man and his dog".

USER INTERFACE: As you know, I personally prefer improvements to the interface for ease of play. I also do not have any issues with accepting a new interface .. and actually find such refreshing! It can be like playing a new game ... but still be NWN/D&D. For instance, I move from game to game with different interfaces with no problems (outside of NWN), all of them RPG's, but have found some interfaces more user-friendly and a benefit to the game than others. As an example, I updated both the store and inventory interfaces to enable better feedback on items. (This was something I felt NWN lacked compared to other RPGs I had encountered.) EDIT: And "fog of war" of course.
 

Another person (sorry don't remember who), recently found a way to eliminate the spell animations for a more fast-paced kill them all kind of module I suppose.

I made some alterations to some of the NWN code (to remove animations) to try to enable more of an "instant-cast", which I used for some of my items. However, I would be interested to hear if somebody has found another/better way of doing something similar. If you (or another person) does recall where I can look this up, it would be appreciated.

Thanks again all!
Lance.

[ColorsFade]

I think one of the main reasons the NWN1 & 2 engines have lasted so long is that there simply isn't anything else to tell a D&D story with. Sure, you can hop over to Dragon Age and build in that engine, but you're limited to their few classes, spells and lore. I think most of us have D&D in our DNA because it goes so far back into our childhoods with the PnP game. Having an engine available to build in is priceless. As long as D&D continues to put out books and have a PnP presence, people are going to look to the computer for supplemental play opportunities, and they're going to find the NWN games and mods. And since Atari/Bioware seems to have no inclination to put out a 3rd, non-online version of the engine, this is the only game in town. Hence, I think it will continue to have life and there will be people who will play our stuff. 

 

Also, take a look at the download numbers for the Baldur's Gate Reloaded mod, and then know they're working on BG2. I think if people leave NWN2 alone for a while, they're still going to leave it installed, and they're going to download the BG2 campaign when it is released. I plan on having my work ready to go around the same time

 

Anyway, long story short: my opinion is that the game will continue to have life for as long as it can run on a modern CPU, because it is the only computer D&D engine around. 

 

As to the questions: 

 

1) I think Tchos made the best point here. Personally I don't like small spaces very well, but he brings up a great point when he talks about choke-points. That is a tactical element that is totally valid. It does make the player rethink certain things (like in TBCOCC, Tcho's mod, inside the lighthouse - I learned to have my rogue unlock the door and then back away and use a ranged weapon, and let the heavies actually open the door). 

 

2) I echo Tchos and RJ here. I prefer having a big party. I like having one of every archtype, and then I like having room for flavor character as well. My campaign is allowing 6 total (you and five companions). I liked that party size in the original Baldur's Gate games and the Icewind Dale series. It just seems "right" IMO. And as a player who likes tactical combat, I like having options. 

 

3) Yes. A game can try and do too much. I think the default NWN2 engine is nicely balanced though. 

 

4) I don't play on a huge monitor with a giant resolution (yet), so I don't have an issue with the interface. I will say that I like the consistent look and feel of the default engine's interface (colors and styles). The only thing that would be nicer is some more information, which I can get through Charlie's UI (mainly Spell Resistance number on the main character interface). 

 

As to what module works best: I don't think there is a specific. I think the engine is flexible enough to allow several different kinds of modules, and think some authors have figured out ways to best create those types of modules. Big or small, focused on a small set of companions or a single companion, a big story or an intimate one, what matters is that the person creating the mod tells that story well and does a good job implementing their vision. 

 

What I enjoy most about the game is tactical combat situations, combat in general, well-designed and interesting-looking areas, and good writing.

 

For instance, I just finished Harp and Chrysanthemum a couple months ago, and while I was irked/disappointed by certain elements, overall I thought it had some of the strongest writing in any mod I'd played. The dialog jumped out at me as being professional quality, and I really liked that. I like good writing: characters that say dialog that matches their alignment and motivations, and doesn't just exist to push the plot forward (or worse, pushes the plot forward while at the same time being something that character would NEVER say due to their alignment or personality). 

 

I like well-balanced combat. I don't like it when combat situations are too difficult. I don't play this game to be like an RTS on the highest difficulty setting. I enjoy a challenge, but I don't want to reload an encounter 10 times. Reloading a couple times to try different tactics is fine. But being forced to reload multiple times in the hopes that the RNG will simply be nice and swing the battle in my favor is lame. 

 

I like great area design. Tchos should teach a class. I loved wandering around his mod The Black Scourge of Candle Cove (which I have not finished yet, but will). His areas are beautiful and should be a lesson for everyone who is building. I know I've stolen a lot of ideas from his mod. 

 

My overriding though on this whole thread is this: the game engine is fine the way it is. It's a decade old now and we're still building with it. People like Tchos and other modders have proven we can build really great looking areas with it, and the community just keeps adding content; we're seeing new placeables and monsters and effects all the time. Everything else is on the builder to simply and effectively tell a great story and give us fun encounters. 

 

The engine doesn't need any tweaking. What we need is more good stories. Fortunately, I think there are several in the pipeline, and there's a long list of mods I personally haven't played yet... 

[Tchos]

I have often considered a "single avatar" approach, where the player may pick up one or two companions along the way. However, there's also a side of me that likes the idea of the bigger party too. I think the problem arises when you start to include animal companions, familiars, henchmen and summons, etal. I have found this can really start to cramp a game, especially with larger groups, each with their own "followers". At these times, there is something to be said for having just "one man and his dog".

 

The thing is, there are plenty of fantastic games out there with only a single avatar.  One of the main reasons I play NWN2 is that it provides something that those other games do not -- it supports a fully controllable party.  That's not the sole reason I play it, but it's one of a list of primary things that set NWN2 above NWN1 and other one-man-army games.

 

Regarding the UI, there's one thing that another user made me aware of that isn't easily accessible in the normal interface, which could use a button or some other access.  You can access the examine info screen, which shows the description/background story of a character that isn't in your party by just using the right-click>Examine option, as anyone knows, but you can't do that if the character is in your party, or if it's your main character, because it just brings up the character sheet.  If you want to see your main character's background story again in-game, you can access this screen only if there is a buff or debuff on someone in the party that shows next to the portrait.  Then you can right-click>Examine on that spell effect icon, and the description box will pop up for whichever character is currently active -- not the one who actually has the spell effect unless that's also the currently active character.

 

Aside from revisiting the backstory, players may also want to access that description box because it actually lists all of the bonuses or penalties you have on you, which I don't see listed anywhere else (in this example, I cast "Aid").  I've considered adding a button to show it, but it's low on my priority list.

 

https://www.dropbox....t info.JPG?dl=0

[GCoyote]

...
 
1) PATH-FINDING: I believe NWN needs its areas to be more "roomy" to enable better combat situations to be had, as well as avoiding "stuck" positions.

 

2) SMALLER PARTY: Combined with the above issue, I do wonder if having a smaller party would be easier to control within the game environment. (With respect to actual moving around.)

 

3) STREAMILINING: ?

 

4) INTERFACE CHANGES: ?

 

5) The bottom line is that the game is old now, ...?

 

6) Which style of module best suits the NWN game engine?

 

7) Describe what kind of module you would like to see and play that can use the NWN engine ... and with what kind of differences (or similarities) to those modules you have already played.

 

 

Cheers,

Lance.

 

1) I too would like to see a tutorial on area design for better path-finding. Seeing a character get stuck on a bit of walkmesh that doesn't even correspond to a visible object is immersion breaking. As to what it should look like, I prefer spaces that allow for the player to get a reasonable idea of what is before him/her without having to switch views. That might necessitate the area being a bit larger than strict logic might dictate. OTOH a hermit's hut with a barn-like interior should not be needed either.

 

2) Party size should be determined by the story you are trying to tell. I've had fun playing everything from true solo without even a familiar, to mobs with a party of 4-5 and a squad of attached soldiers. Flexible party size is a strength of NWN2. Go where the story takes you.

 

3) Streamlining. Hmmm.  No easy answer. I suppose trying to design a mod that can be played with literally any class combo might be adding unnecessary stress and complexity. Simply allowing the player to go with a character one or two levels higher or build in a training module and import it might be enough to provide the flexibility they desire. I'd say don't over think it.

 

4) Not so much, only the spell casting interface causes me any regular inconvenience but after all these years I've gotten so used to it I can't say it's worth the time to try and improve beyond the mods that are already available.

 

5) Yes it's old, but so are some of us   It isn't going to displace the latest VR headset based effects-fest but I don't see that it has to. My remake of a conversion of 30 year ole PnP module just passed 500 downloads. So there are players out there. The others are right, this game is dirt cheap now and will probably run as long as Intel makes chips.

 

6) I think it works best with outdoor and underground areas while complications arise as you try to recreate increasingly realistic chunks of civilization. I think it works well for planar settings for the simple reason that those are essentially unconstrained by conventional notions of reality. Build an area of the Planes and tell a good story, players will buy it.

 

7) Things that seem to work well:

• A modest size party. A few companions provide alternatives for storytelling and exposition that might not flow well if the builder is limited to NPCs and what not.
• Optional companions. I always seem to need a rogue. Don't know why. 
• If the companions are optional, there can be replay value in simply going again solo since the player now knows the story.
• Stories that evolve naturally. Don't stick a demon in front of level 3 character and then give him a Holy Avenger, etc so he can survive the encounter. (Okay you wouldn't but some people have.) The story feels right when the PC takes up the sword from the long dead hand of the fallen hero after earning it and carries it to whatever end. There are modules I've played several times despite their technical flaws because the story, triumph or tragedy, was compelling. Find your voice. Build to suit that.

[Lance Botelle]

Hi Everyone,

 

Good feedback again.

 

I think I may have a sit back and a long think about my second module. (Not too long mind you. )

 

I intend to try to make it a bit easier than last time, with the experience I have had with module 1. So, hopefully, those differences will be all I need to help make the next one a bit more focussed / easier to build.

 

At least I won't be doing everything from scratch from now on.

 

Cheers,

Lance.

[Arkalezth]

You can access the examine info screen, which shows the description/background story of a character that isn't in your party by just using the right-click>Examine option, as anyone knows, but you can't do that if the character is in your party, or if it's your main character, because it just brings up the character sheet.

You can. Take control of the character you want to examine, then right-click wherever (not on an object or such) and "examine".
 

players may also want to access that description box because it actually lists all of the bonuses or penalties you have on you, which I don't see listed anywhere else

It's also listed at the bottom of the character sheet, though that might be just for buffs and not gear bonuses.

[Tchos]

With that additional information, it seems that right-clicking on the buffs is superfluous, since the same result happens when clicking on the floor.  The buff icon just provides a place to click that isn't an object.  It also explains why it only shows the info of the controlled character, even if you click on the buff icon of a different character.

 

I checked the character sheet, and I confirm that shows buffs, but not the gear bonuses that the info box shows.

[BoardGuest808888l]

About pathfinding and area design, I agree with Tchos & Arkalezth. So, when designing an area, the space used should be within reason. However, a clever use of situational choke-points and obstacle for tacticsl advantages is also needed. Whether we or the enemy choose a specific area for combat, there should be reason.

For party building, GCoyote summed it well. It really depends on the story and setting. Generally, higher level your characters are, the more options you'll have, the more advantageous micro-managing will be. Thus, less members is more efficient. On the other hand, for low magic-low level setting, your party's quantity might be it's best quality.