"More crazy? I thought we were all full up."
My kind of crazy though
...And now I have a John Anderson song in my head. 
Leliana was my canon Warden's kind of crazy too, until Zev showed up and the Warden talked to Leliana about growing up as an elf. He still liked her as a friend, but after that conversation he was never quite certain she'd see him as a social equal in the event they became lovers, and he ended their romance shortly thereafter.
...And now I have a John Anderson song in my head.
Leliana was my canon Warden's kind of crazy too, until Zev showed up and the Warden talked to Leliana about growing up as an elf. He still liked her as a friend, but after that conversation he was never quite certain she'd see him as a social equal in the event they became lovers, and he ended their romance shortly thereafter.
The way I see it... my elf Wardens generally have things to apologize for too. Both my CE and Dalish are extremely aggressive and hate humans. It's only because people like Ali/Leli/Wynne that they learn to like them..and even die if necessary. Maybe Duncan too, in the case of my CE (my Dalish still hates him lol).
Yeah, my elves aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. My canon is an M!Surana who helped Jowan escape, after all. He did give Leliana credit for being willing to change her views, but after that conversation he was no longer sure she'd really view him as an equal. He trusted her to try, but at that stage he wasn't ready for a romantic relationship with someone who had always, even if quite unconsciously, seen elves as inferior.
So for me, a Leliana x elf Warden relationship would hinge at least partially on whether the attraction between them is strong enough to deal with Leliana's subconscious prejudices about elves. And for my female elf Wardens in particular, there's the issue of whether or not they're interested in other women. (Nothing against women being in same-sex relationships, but I'm a straight woman and just find it easier to play het or m/m romances than I do f/f romances.)
Regret isn't about the past, it is about the future. The first step into change. But what Zevran wants isn't to change himself and that is not what his new quest is about.
Exactly, the future, which is what I said.
Whether he weeps with guilt about his past or not, Zevran does turn over a new leaf and does try to help you make a better future. Okay, so his motivation isn't soul-crushing guilt about his past, but his actions are exactly the same. Whether his sale's pitch is "I feel so weighted down by my guilt that the only thing that'll help lift the weight of my heavy burden is helping you" or, "Hey, I'd rather be alive than dead. And since I'm alive, I'd rather use it to help you stop the Blight than take my chances on the road." Either way, you get the extra help you can use to stop the Blight, and he gets protection against the Crows (which allows him to escape that life instead of wallowing over it). Everyone wins.
Of course, you're right when you say that Sten is far from squeacky clean, but he gives you fewer reasons not to recruit him than Zevran does.
Speak for yourself.
I didn't trust Sten one bit not to snap again on my first playthrough. The only info you get standing in front of that cage is that one day he snapped and killed an entire family for seemingly no reason, which he doesn't try to deny or explain. What if whatever then-unknown trigger or madness possessed him again? That's a lot of Qunari to try to restrain with only a few frail humans and even frailer elf. And what if he killed someone else and I was responsible for letting him out? I didn't wanna let him out of that cage.
By the time Zevran rolls around, it's like, "We've survived tougher things than you. There's (now) several of us and only one of li'l ol' you. Try anything funny at your own detriment."
I don't even remember recruiting Sten in my first playthrough. I'm pretty sure I didn't. He was disturbing. If I were to go with my instincts, that'd be the case now.. but I usually have recruited him since then. I just don't go out of my way for him. I think I can believe he wants atonement, but I'm not going to listen to his nonsense or get his sword. He'll get his butterfly sword and be happy about it.... or else!
I've always figured Zevran to be the perfect crush for f!Tabris. He's basically the under-trodden city elf's vision of Superman. There's the hired-to-kill-you issue, but aside from that? He's handsome, strong, comparatively wealthy, recognized in his field even by humans, and he apparently worships you. Oh, and he's a fellow elf, so no decades of mistrust and envy and repressed outrage between you and his species.
I'm no expert on female psychology, but having been surrounded by hopeless, resigned and extremely poor guys forbidden from defending themselves all your life and told that you must eventually marry one of them while being terrorized by fascist nobles - the type of which this guy kills for a living -, wouldn't Zevran be the mysterious stranger every young elf woman dreams of meeting? He's freedom, excitement, unprecedented financial safety and protection all in one. And he adores you.
Leliana, on the other hand, offers a more unconventional relationship which would therefore seem uncertain, dangerous and even unnatural. She's pretty ignorant of the plight of the elves, very whimsical in making her decisions and a dirt-poor lay sister to boot. Tabris has had a very traditional upbringing, knife-training notwithstanding, and as I understand it "can I trust this person to take care of me?" is a pretty ingrained instinct, which I personally think should be a consideration in any realistic romance.
I've always figured Zevran to be the perfect crush for f!Tabris. He's basically the under-trodden city elf's vision of Superman. There's the hired-to-kill-you issue, but aside from that? He's handsome, strong, comparatively wealthy, recognized in his field even by humans, and he apparently worships you. Oh, and he's a fellow elf, so no decades of mistrust and envy and repressed outrage between you and his species.
I'm no expert on female psychology, but having been surrounded by hopeless, resigned and extremely poor guys forbidden from defending themselves all your life and told that you must eventually marry one of them while being terrorized by fascist nobles - the type of which this guy kills for a living -, wouldn't Zevran be the mysterious stranger every young elf woman dreams of meeting? He's freedom, excitement, unprecedented financial safety and protection all in one. And he adores you.
Leliana, on the other hand, offers a more unconventional relationship which would therefore seem uncertain, dangerous and even unnatural. She's pretty ignorant of the plight of the elves, very whimsical in making her decisions and a dirt-poor lay sister to boot. Tabris has had a very traditional upbringing, knife-training notwithstanding, and as I understand it "can I trust this person to take care of me?" is a pretty ingrained instinct, which I personally think should be a consideration in any realistic romance.
Actually Zevran is no richer than Leliana (or the PC for that matter). It's the Crows who get the money from contracts. Zevran gets 'perks' like wine, women (or men) and pretty much anything he wants in the way of material goods. A gilded cage so to speak. One of the things he will tell you in his dialogue trees if you make the mistake of saying he would be paid for killing you.
He even wonders what life would be like if he went into business (and was responsible) for himself.
For OP, both are viable romance options, depends on what kind of story you want your Tabris to tell. I've managed to romance Leliana all the way through but not Zevran. Having had him in the 'friend zone' too many games, I can't wrap my head around romancing him, but I hear his romance is a good one too. Biggest rule in DA though: Just have fun with it, whatever you choose.
I didn't realize people saw Leliana as so ignorant. She's one of the most openminded characters to me. Because she makes that comment about her experiences with elves? She's trying to learn. And she apologizes.. she isn't self-righteous about it. Not everyone is awesome out of the gates. I find it harder to forgive Morrigan. She wants you to sacrifice your dad well into the final quest of the game. She hasn't learned anything. Even Alistair, as nice as he is, doesn't understand the real things people go through. His woes revolve around being a KING and how poor Duncan died. Oh the humanity.
I ended up going the Zev route with a commoner/fem dwarf though. I think it's another good pairing.
Exactly, the future, which is what I said.
Whether he weeps with guilt about his past or not, Zevran does turn over a new leaf and does try to help you make a better future. Okay, so his motivation isn't soul-crushing guilt about his past, but his actions are exactly the same. Whether his sale's pitch is "I feel so weighted down by my guilt that the only thing that'll help lift the weight of my heavy burden is helping you" or, "Hey, I'd rather be alive than dead. And since I'm alive, I'd rather use it to help you stop the Blight than take my chances on the road." Either way, you get the extra help you can use to stop the Blight, and he gets protection against the Crows (which allows him to escape that life instead of wallowing over it). Everyone wins.
Speak for yourself.
I didn't trust Sten one bit not to snap again on my first playthrough. The only info you get standing in front of that cage is that one day he snapped and killed an entire family for seemingly no reason, which he doesn't try to deny or explain. What if whatever then-unknown trigger or madness possessed him again? That's a lot of Qunari to try to restrain with only a few frail humans and even frailer elf. And what if he killed someone else and I was responsible for letting him out? I didn't wanna let him out of that cage.
By the time Zevran rolls around, it's like, "We've survived tougher things than you. There's (now) several of us and only one of li'l ol' you. Try anything funny at your own detriment."
Actually Zevran is no richer than Leliana (or the PC for that matter). It's the Crows who get the money from contracts. Zevran gets 'perks' like wine, women (or men) and pretty much anything he wants in the way of material goods. A gilded cage so to speak. One of the things he will tell you in his dialogue trees if you make the mistake of saying he would be paid for killing you.
He even wonders what life would be like if he went into business (and was responsible) for himself.
I'd forgotten that he doesn't receive any coin himself. He does come with several sovereigns' worth of high-quality leather armor and daggers though, probably worth more than Tabris' entire house, where Leliana has just her robes and a pair of knives. And as you say he is a working man with a very marketable skill, even if you kind of cost him his career. I'm given to understand that women appreciate that in men.
I didn't realize people saw Leliana as so ignorant. She's one of the most openminded characters to me. Because she makes that comment about her experiences with elves? She's trying to learn. And she apologizes.. she isn't self-righteous about it. Not everyone is awesome out of the gates. I find it harder to forgive Morrigan. She wants you to sacrifice your dad well into the final quest of the game. She hasn't learned anything. Even Alistair, as nice as he is, doesn't understand the real things people go through. His woes revolve around being a KING and how poor Duncan died. Oh the humanity.
I ended up going to Zev route with a commoner/fem dwarf though. I think it's another good pairing.
I think we all know that "trying to learn" and apologizing is almost never enough for people who are used to seeing you as part of an oppressive machine. "Your people deserve dignity? I never thought of it like that." is a hard thing to backpedal from no matter how quickly and genuinely you change your thinking. I didn't mean to say that Leliana is so ignorant, just point out that at least some tension there would be very realistic. And a lot wouldn't be implausible. And no, nobody is accusing Alistair or Morrigan of being more open-minded, although Morrigan's own estrangement from human society and cynical focus on independence could make her more compatible with, say, a Dalish elf's view on the issue.
Zevran, on the other hand, is both a fellow elf and one who's been around. He could probably discuss circles around Leliana, Morrigan, Alistair and Tabris herself combined on the subject without insulting anyone involved. All I'm saying is that's another argument for Tabris to be naturally interested in him over the others. He's both closer to home and exotic, on top of understanding what her people go through.
I'd forgotten that he doesn't receive any coin himself. He does come with several sovereigns' worth of high-quality leather armor and daggers though, probably worth more than Tabris' entire house, where Leliana has just her robes and a pair of knives. And as you say he is a working man with a very marketable skill, even if you kind of cost him his career. I'm given to understand that women appreciate that in men.
I think we all know that "trying to learn" and apologizing is almost never enough for people who are used to seeing you as part of an oppressive machine. "Your people deserve dignity? I never thought of it like that." is a hard thing to backpedal from no matter how quickly and genuinely you change your thinking. I didn't mean to say that Leliana is so ignorant, just point out that at least some tension there would be very realistic. And a lot wouldn't be implausible. And no, nobody is accusing Alistair or Morrigan of being more open-minded, although Morrigan's own estrangement from human society and cynical focus on independence could make her more compatible with, say, a Dalish elf's view on the issue.
Zevran, on the other hand, is both a fellow elf and one who's been around. He could probably discuss circles around Leliana, Morrigan, Alistair and Tabris herself combined on the subject without insulting anyone involved. All I'm saying is that's another argument for Tabris to be naturally interested in him over the others. He's both closer to home and exotic, on top of understanding what her people go through.
Yeah, I do think there's an appeal for a Dalish and Morrigan.. the whole outsider thing. Plus, if they're anything like Velanna, they don't care about City Elves much anyways. You don't necessarily have to dwell on that.
I see the appeal of Zevran though. Leliana (and Alistair) is a whole different story, I suppose.. where the two sides build a bridge. But Zev.. it's a meeting of minds.
I'd forgotten that he doesn't receive any coin himself. He does come with several sovereigns' worth of high-quality leather armor and daggers though, probably worth more than Tabris' entire house, where Leliana has just her robes and a pair of knives. And as you say he is a working man with a very marketable skill, even if you kind of cost him his career. I'm given to understand that women appreciate that in men.
I think we all know that "trying to learn" and apologizing is almost never enough for people who are used to seeing you as part of an oppressive machine. "Your people deserve dignity? I never thought of it like that." is a hard thing to backpedal from no matter how quickly and genuinely you change your thinking. I didn't mean to say that Leliana is so ignorant, just point out that at least some tension there would be very realistic. And a lot wouldn't be implausible. And no, nobody is accusing Alistair or Morrigan of being more open-minded, although Morrigan's own estrangement from human society and cynical focus on independence could make her more compatible with, say, a Dalish elf's view on the issue.
Zevran, on the other hand, is both a fellow elf and one who's been around. He could probably discuss circles around Leliana, Morrigan, Alistair and Tabris herself combined on the subject without insulting anyone involved. All I'm saying is that's another argument for Tabris to be naturally interested in him over the others. He's both closer to home and exotic, on top of understanding what her people go through.
I think you've definitely got a point about him being "both closer to home and exotic," which is the best combination for some people.
I have to disagree about the financial security part. As you all have said, Zevran himself notes that he is "as poor as a Chantry mouse, come to think of it." He also notes in conversation that he doesn't know what he'll do now that he's left the Crows, since the only two skills he has are assassination and... something he'd get arrested for performing in public (sex!). Sure, he could learn a new trade (I headcanon that my city elf encouraged him to), but those things take time too. I don't really think money would be an object, though, since you're part of the Grey Warden now. Assuming you survive the Blight and restore the Order, they'll probably pay your way, so you don't have to worry about it.
I can't speak for most real-life women since I'm only one of them; but, like with most things, it depends on who you ask. Some want to be taken care of, some just want someone whose career, hours, income and/or education level is somewhere in the ballpark of theirs, some just want a partner who'll help out (whether as "house husband" or also generate income), etc. I think most of us have to worry about food and bills in real life, so I think that desire for stability and financial security comes more from a desire to have a partner who'll help us through life, rather than someone who expects you to carry yourself and them.
Overall, though, I think there is something to be said for dating someone who's gone through the same things you have as one of the people.
Yes, yes, I know that's what you said. I had to emphasize it because you spoke as though my point were about staying stuck in the past.
The motivation aspect I brought up was related to his new pursuit in DA2. But if we're speaking about the first meeting in DAO, why would you believe Zevran's loyalty will last?
And of course, you assume an assassin would need to engage in open combat. Your party's ability to defeat him is irrelevant when he could just poison their food or silently kill them in their sleep.
Why would you trust Sten not to snap or kill anyone again? At the time that he's standing in the cage, we don't know what kind of trigger or madness led him to do it, and he doesn't exactly offer any details or have any intention of giving you confidence that he wouldn't kill again, so what if it struck again?
It's called trust. Different players have different reasons and motivations for trusting different characters. Reasons that might seem insufficient to one might be perfectly sufficient to another. As I already know you're going to dismiss any reasons I give for saying why that protagonist might trust Zevran, or feel confident enough in their own prowess to beat him if he tried again or smarts against falling for his tricks, I won't go into it.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
The easiest way for me to tolerate Zev or Sten recruitment is to give my own character their own dose of guilt. This way they're not too quick to judge.
Although I find it particularly hard to recruit Sten on a Cousland. He just saw his nephew Oren dead... Lothering and Ostagar isn't too far from that. It's not like he'd suddenly gotten over it and wants to hang around child killers.
I'd forgotten that he doesn't receive any coin himself. He does come with several sovereigns' worth of high-quality leather armor and daggers though, probably worth more than Tabris' entire house, where Leliana has just her robes and a pair of knives. And as you say he is a working man with a very marketable skill, even if you kind of cost him his career. I'm given to understand that women appreciate that in men.
His gear is worse than the PC's when recruited, (being simple unadorned, unmagical leathers and crow daggers) but yes, he does come with more on his back than Leliana (who starts with a dagger and robes). As for his skills, well, I'd say he and Leliana are pretty equally skilled with DPS, with her actually having an edge on picking locks/finding traps. So his earning ability is no more or less a contributing factor in consideration than hers would be.
Don't get me wrong, I love both of them but I just want to see them determined equitably on their merits, not one put before the other by dubious means. For me, I see little difference in a romance between the two, though Zev has a slight edge because of Leliana's unconscious racism. She learns from her experience
Yeah, I've got to admit I have a hard time judging Zevran for being a killer as a city elf, or even dwarf commoner.
Zev: "To be honest, I was never really given a choice joining the Crows."
Brosca: "Yeah, I didn't really have a choice joining the Carta either."
Tabris: "Yeah, I didn't really have a choice using a borrowed weapon to cut my way to my abducted wedding party on my wedding day."
Zev: "We all do our share of murdering around here, do we not?"
Tabris: "Well, considering I left the arl's son lying in a pool of blood that ran through the whole palace, I can't disagree."
Brosca: "Well, considering I used to come home covered head to toe in blood after 'taking care of' someone Beraht didn't like..."
Not to mention that by the time you meet him (assuming you don't use a mod that has Zev arrive sooner) your kill count can be in the hundreds, if not thousands, so it seems a tad hypocritical of me to run around "killing random strangers" (as Dorian put it) but then condemn him for being a killer.
Even if you use ZevranASAP, your kill count by then (between origin, Ostagar and Lothering) is still likely to be over 100 if we're including party member kills. (My F!Brosca is in the deserted farmland/has just gotten Dog, and her kill stats are 46 individual/160 party.)
I don't think Zev has killed any kids (innocent or otherwise). Afaik. That's what makes him different from Sten. Even without the kids, Zev probably doesn't kill entire groups of Good Samaritan Adults who wanted to help him either. He might be an assassin, but he's a professional. Not some raging idiot.
I've always figured Zevran to be the perfect crush for f!Tabris. He's basically the under-trodden city elf's vision of Superman. There's the hired-to-kill-you issue, but aside from that? He's handsome, strong, comparatively wealthy, recognized in his field even by humans, and he apparently worships you. Oh, and he's a fellow elf, so no decades of mistrust and envy and repressed outrage between you and his species.
I'm no expert on female psychology, but having been surrounded by hopeless, resigned and extremely poor guys forbidden from defending themselves all your life and told that you must eventually marry one of them while being terrorized by fascist nobles - the type of which this guy kills for a living -, wouldn't Zevran be the mysterious stranger every young elf woman dreams of meeting? He's freedom, excitement, unprecedented financial safety and protection all in one. And he adores you.
Leliana, on the other hand, offers a more unconventional relationship which would therefore seem uncertain, dangerous and even unnatural. She's pretty ignorant of the plight of the elves, very whimsical in making her decisions and a dirt-poor lay sister to boot. Tabris has had a very traditional upbringing, knife-training notwithstanding, and as I understand it "can I trust this person to take care of me?" is a pretty ingrained instinct, which I personally think should be a consideration in any realistic romance.
That's exactly how I plan to play f!Tabris in my upcoming playthrough.
For me, the Leliana romance fits more with a male noble pro chantry, at least that's how I plan to do it.
I don't think Zev has killed any kids (innocent or otherwise). Afaik. That's what makes him different from Sten. Even without the kids, Zev probably doesn't kill entire groups of Good Samaritan Adults who wanted to help him either. He might be an assassin, but he's a professional. Not some raging idiot.
Indeed, you can ask him point blank, "Have you ever harmed an innocent", while he doesn't deny it (with an 'accidents happen despite the best planning' kind of answer), he doesn't go out of his way to harm bystanders.
In fact, in one of his stories, he was robbed by some urchins when he was caught in a vulnerable moment. 
That's exactly how I plan to play f!Tabris in my upcoming playthrough.
For me, the Leliana romance fits more with a male noble pro chantry, at least that's how I plan to do it.
It's funny, because that was one of my earlier playthroughs years ago.
I actually just finished male Tabris, which much fewer people play. But I loved it more than the Cousland. I also wanted to do the US..which I can never do with FemTabris (or any Dwarf Commoner). I don't know why
That's exactly how I plan to play f!Tabris in my upcoming playthrough.
For me, the Leliana romance fits more with a male noble pro chantry, at least that's how I plan to do it.
Me too, although I'm debating it with my M!Amell as well. Though he's currently with Morrigan, so we'll see.
Me too, although I'm debating it with my M!Amell as well. Though he's currently with Morrigan, so we'll see.
Amell is another good Leliana pairing, I think. Elf or mages are good for her overall story. Plus Amell is kinda like a Jowan and she's kinda like Lily. Plus, the Circle story and Leliana were both written by Sheryl Chee.
I just like the elf thing because Andraste and Shartan. Even if the originals weren't hooked up (I think it's just a funny rumor), I like the idea of my trickster elf hooked up with the red headed trickster Chantry sister (and future Divine). Don't tell me that's not a good story
With FemTabris, there isn't the direct Shartan thing, but I like how the Warden is a better woman than Marjolaine in her eyes. "A joy to be around".. And it's far healthier than Celene and Briala for sure. Leli makes a naive comment, but come on now.
edit: Speaking of which, I kind of like headcanoning with all of this when Leliana meets Celene in Masked Empire. Celene is watching that play about Andraste and Shartan while Leli is trying to discuss the elven crisis. I think they even get into Marjolaine's death. It makes me wonder what Leliana is thinking at the time.. especially if my own Warden is dead.
*Shrugs* IsabelaThere's something to be said for someone who'll loyally stand by you for life.
Me too, although I'm debating it with my M!Amell as well. Though he's currently with Morrigan, so we'll see.
M!Amell goes with Morrigan for me and f!Amell with Alistair 
if I choose Leliana as M!Amell it's only if I rp him as a an andrastian pro-circle.
M!Amell goes with Morrigan for me and f!Amell with Alistair
That's how I see it too. Although I don't romance Morrigan, but if I did..
Retour en haut