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[BloodyMares]

 
The thing some people seem to forget is that Ceberus were conducting their morally abhorrent experiments years before they knew the Reapers were a thing meaning that the latter cannot be used as the justification for some of their experimentation.  
 
Note that Jack was abducted in 2165 and the events of Mass Effect began in 2183. Additionally, the unit of Alliance marines massacred on Akuze because of deliberate Ceberus engineering happened in 2177. In 2170, Cerberus deliberately caused element zero exposure to no less than three colonies. 
 
Now if all of Cerberus' experiments were done without the consent of the Illusive Man or their supposed downspiral escaped his supervision then that does not speak so well of his competence especially considering there are only suppose be as many cells as the Illusive Man himself can supervise according to Edi. 
 
Note that the premise alone of the Pragia experiment was morally abhorrent from the beginning and also note that some of the children forced into the experiments were apparently bought from batarian slavers. Way to take a stand and protect humanity from aliens, Cerberus.     
 
Here is a short list of some of the people Ceberus has had assassinated and the reason behind said assassinations;

• The Pope Clement XVI was assassinated by Ceberus so that he could be replaced by Leo XIV because the latter had eschatological beliefs that corresponded more to Ceberus' goal of militarizing humanity.      

• Claude Menneau, a candidate for the leadership of the Terra Firm party, was assasinated so that Charles Saracino would instead come into the party's leadership.

•Enrique Aguilar, the president of the United States was assassinated by Michael Moser Lang who was funded by Cerberus.

•Ying Xiong, the premier

•Rear Admiral Kahouku was assassinated due to his investigations into Cerberus and the discoveries he made.
 
That's the thing about Cerberus: they see themselves as the sole arbiter of what humanity should be and to them, that self-appointed authority means that they are justified in whatever means they'll take even if it means disregarding the basic rights of a human individual for the sake of their experiments or disregarding the decisions of a human collective by murdering their elected for the sake of forcing in their own.           
 
TL:DR - Cerberus is as morally grey as this cat's fur;
https://d13yacurqjga..._800x600_v1.gif

Cerberus is as morally grey as any other cartoonish mustache-twirling villians that want to take over the world.

[Laughing_Man]

I do miss the option in KOTOR to join the Dark Side.

 

I would have been happy with the possibility to play as a Cerberus agent, maybe take over at some point to make them more competent and less idiotic!Evil.

[Master Warder Z_]

 
The thing some people seem to forget is that Ceberus were conducting their morally abhorrent experiments years before they knew the Reapers were a thing meaning that the latter cannot be used as the justification for some of their experimentation.  
 
Note that Jack was abducted in 2165 and the events of Mass Effect began in 2183. Additionally, the unit of Alliance marines massacred on Akuze because of deliberate Ceberus engineering happened in 2177. In 2170, Cerberus deliberately caused element zero exposure to no less than three colonies. 
 
Now if all of Cerberus' experiments were done without the consent of the Illusive Man or their supposed downspiral escaped his supervision then that does not speak so well of his competence especially considering there are only suppose be as many cells as the Illusive Man himself can supervise according to Edi. 
 
Note that the premise alone of the Pragia experiment was morally abhorrent from the beginning and also note that some of the children forced into the experiments were apparently bought from batarian slavers. Way to take a stand and protect humanity from aliens, Cerberus.     
 
Here is a short list of some of the people Ceberus has had assassinated and the reason behind said assassinations;

• The Pope Clement XVI was assassinated by Ceberus so that he could be replaced by Leo XIV because the latter had eschatological beliefs that corresponded more to Ceberus' goal of militarizing humanity.      

• Claude Menneau, a candidate for the leadership of the Terra Firm party, was assasinated so that Charles Saracino would instead come into the party's leadership.

•Enrique Aguilar, the president of the United States was assassinated by Michael Moser Lang who was funded by Cerberus.

•Ying Xiong, the premier

•Rear Admiral Kahouku was assassinated due to his investigations into Cerberus and the discoveries he made.
 
That's the thing about Cerberus: they see themselves as the sole arbiter of what humanity should be and to them, that self-appointed authority means that they are justified in whatever means they'll take even if it means disregarding the basic rights of a human individual for the sake of their experiments or disregarding the decisions of a human collective by murdering their elected for the sake of forcing in their own.           
 
TL:DR - Cerberus is as morally grey as this cat's fur;
https://d13yacurqjga..._800x600_v1.gif

 

Do you actually want a rebuttal for this crap?

 

I mean, we can do it.

 

Wouldn't be the first time I threw gray into a black and white argument.

 

I mean just for the sake of argument, I do have a counter for the Biotic Facilities; In the aftermath of the First Contact War and the the subsequent discovery of human biotic potential it is far too pressing a military advantage to let die in the vein of things like ethics and politics. Every single council race had biotics, giving them undeniable advantage over not only the Alliance but Humanity itself, someone had to lay the groundwork, do the nasty and messy first gen testing.

 

The Alliance did its fair share, Cerberus picked up the pieces and contributed to the process at the very least, supplementary data on AMP crafting, and in all likelihood more. Even if TIM did condone the experiments, I wouldn't view it as a fault, if he was kept in the dark then I suspect that had more to do with the sheer death rate of subjects then any moral issue with their actions, or perhaps it was based on morality and I am underselling, either way Pragia was a unfortunate necessity of its era. I mean do we want to go over the history of Jet Aviation, Space Travel and etc?

 

We can find all sorts of skeletons in the closet when you are trying to build tech from the ground up, people will die, sometimes a lot of people, but the payoff is usually worth it to the majority.

 

Moral abhorrence to my eye is nothing new for anything relating to creating the next generation of humanity.

 

I mean crap, the Alliance effort apparently wasn't much better given that well...90% and up of its own records are frigging sealed and never to be opened.

 

Which is why I frigging laughed in Hackett's face when he was talking about Sanctuary, I was like...short memory there buddy, you don't remember Jump Zero huh?

[Laughing_Man]

Cerberus is as morally grey as any other cartoonish mustache-twirling villians that want to take over the world.

 

The fact that they were reduced to mustache-twirling villains is unfortunate in itself.

 

Bioware likes to pretend sometimes like morality is black and white, without a place for pragmatism etc.

 

Making Cerberus into a puppy shooting Villainous Group of Villains, was just taking the easiest and most boring road to tackle those questions.

[The Ascendant]

I wonder if we can become like Cerberus in Andromeda? Our armour does appear more similar to a Cerberus operative than Alliance Military. Always preferred their armour in ME3.

[Master Warder Z_]

The fact that they were reduced to mustache-twirling villains is unfortunate in itself.

 

Bioware likes to pretend sometimes like morality is black and white, without a place for pragmatism etc.

 

Making Cerberus into a puppy shooting Villainous Group of Villains, was just taking the easiest and most boring road to tackle those questions.

 

*coughs*

 

Just like DAI I do have a fan script floating around for a event tree for ME3.

 

It would actually be quite divergent regarding Cerberus with them actually being a potential major non Alliance backer for the Reaper Invasion, assuming you wanted to play it that way.(It actually has a Kai Leng recruitment mission regarding a Miranda event midway through the game) I don't want to tip my own narrative hat overly so, but I do say that I think I put together at least a decent thesis on what I think ME3 should have been.

 

And that is a 19-28 month long slog through attritional warfare across 20-40 percent of the known galaxy. 

 

I do enjoy writing event trees ever since I played Gihren's Greed ages ago, I have just come to enjoy crafting them. A good multi directional plotline is key to a adaptive narrative, wouldn't have even been remotely feasible though truth be told, too many diverging paths, even if they all sort of do link up near the climax of the game, I mean just for example. You can grudgingly get the Alliance to accept Cerberus aid, in return for granting them legal authority to do some...less then ethical testing at a base, that you run across very early in the game, you actually go there under Alliance Order just to see what the heck they are doing in the Verge, to uncover they have a sizable population of repurposed Collector drones(if you left the Base intact otherwise its Geth from Overlord) And are basically building a army up in relative secrecy to fight the Reaper invasion, because in my narrative, Cerberus despite immense wartime recruiting in the 9 month gap between ME2 and 3(I added three months for reasons that are unreleated to this example) has less then five hundred time total personal, and less then half of that are actually capable combatants.

 

So Collectors and or Geth will add considerable numbers to any of their offensives, but ignoring the threat because you buy into the argument that these forces are needed, countermanded the order from the Alliance to destroy the faculty, thus putting you in hot water with them, it would basically be a juggling act to maintain permanent allies throughout the game, because no one really wants to get along even in the face extinction.

 

...This could get very long, very quickly so I will just end it here.

[Laughing_Man]

*coughs*

 

Just like DAI I do have a fan script floating around for a event tree for ME3.

 

This alternative events tree you mentioned actually sounds interesting, I would be interested in seeing it if you don't mind showing it here.

[Shechinah]

...

 

Just leaving a note to inform you that I'll get back to your post as I welcome the discussion.

[Ieldra]

@Master Warder Z_:
The problem with Cerberus' presentation is that we never got the impression those atrocities were necessary. They were totally over-the-top, with a significant dose of drama over common sense. I mean any ruthless but sane scientist would try to limit the fallout of their experiments, even if only for reasons of economy and reputation. Cerberus was like they don't care at all about ethics, rather than "I regret what I have to do but it's necessary."

[Laughing_Man]

@Master Warder Z_:
The problem with Cerberus' presentation is that we never got the impression those atrocities were necessary. They were totally over-the-top, with a significant dose of drama over common sense. I mean any ruthless but sane scientist would try to limit the fallout of their experiments, even if only for reasons of economy and reputation. Cerberus was like they don't care at all about ethics, rather than "I regret what I have to do but it's necessary."

 

That was my problem as well, it stinks of writers trying to preach about morals, or maybe just trying to nail the lowest common denominator.

[Master Warder Z_]

This alternative events tree you mentioned actually sounds interesting, I would be interested in seeing it if you don't mind showing it here.

 

 

Just for the sake of this being a actual full game event tree I will only include main options for the first act.

 

Alright just for the sake of explaining where the game actually kicks off, Shepard after Arrival is basically hauled to the Citadel to face charges of collaborating with a known terrorist organization, the Apha relay event, and other assort nasty things. The game basically kicks off at a war crimes tribunal. Its obviously interrupted by the emergence of the Reapers, who as they did in ME3 stream into Batarian space. Basically on the express path straight for the Citadel, it comes under attack less then two hours after their arrival, the Citadel Fleet manages to fight off a handful of Reaper capital ships but is being overwhelmed when the Alliance 3rd, 2nd and 5th Fleet arrive, destroying a few more Capital ships before the attack is basically called off, all the while, the Reapers were offloading tens of thousands of ground troops on to the Citadel, that you get to fight through.

 

Alrightie prologue out of the way, Spectre status is reinstated, blah blah, you then get the first choice which basically comes down to picking your mandate to the Alliance or the Citadel.

 

The Alliance wants you to basically squash this fire in their inner colonies as the Reapers streamroll towards Earth at lightning speed, they want to defend and recapture critical naval infrastructure so they can keep their fleet in the war, meanwhile the Council likewise wants you to investigate the Reaper entry point and determine the makeup of their forces and possible numbers deep in Batarian space.

 

1- You defend key shipyards at random colony world and the Alliance is grateful and their military for the moment remains effective in the war, inversely you don't know the makeup of the Reaper fleet beyond speculation and wild rumors coming out of Batarian space.

2. You scout the horde, uncover a general notion of just how many vessels are within their incoming fleets and can prepare better in the event of a actual counter offensive.

 

This directly leads into the next stage of the event tree, depending upon your choice you will either get one of four missions from either faction, and the introduction of Cerberus. 

 

1.The Alliance sends you to investigate a possible Cerberus lab and determine just what the heck their doing, basically what I outlined above.

2.The Citadel tasks you with defending a critical communications nexus for the Asari as it is under assault.

3. You are also tasked with by whatever faction you didn't aid to basically do what you didn't do for decreased support.

 

Outcome one of this scenario is you uncover the Cerberus army, are reintroduced to the organization, blah, blah, you get to decide if you are going to basically nuke the base or not, doing one or the other will greatly impact relations with either the Alliance or Cerberus.

 

Outcome two of this scenario is you defend the installation and basically warn the Asari of a push on their borders with enough time to repulse the initial surge, preventing a blitz on their systems and stalling the Reaper offensive in that sector.

 

Outcome three is just there to basically give you the means to have enough resources to ensure a stable military state for the first act.

 

Oh I forgot, there are loss states in this game, you can straight up lose in act three if you don't have enough forces, and support or if you took long, Earth can be harvested completely.

 

o.o

 

That the sort of stuff you wanted to hear? 

[Master Warder Z_]

@Master Warder Z_:
The problem with Cerberus' presentation is that we never got the impression those atrocities were necessary. 

 

You listen to the logs at Pragia?

 

The scientists there seemed to believe they were.

 

It was pretty methodical if crassly put by Bioware as usual, not the way I'd have written it, but I am not on their writing staff.

[Laughing_Man]

That the sort of stuff you wanted to hear? 

 

Yeah, sounds like a lot less of wishful thinking and make believe morality, and more using your head and encountering real dilemmas.

 

Also, replay-ability, a more mature outlook, it might not be perfect but the direction is valid and interesting.

[Laughing_Man]

I would have started even earlier, with Cerberus staging a covert op on the Prison Shepard was in, offering him to actually do something to stop the Reapers instead of sitting on his ass to appease the alliance PR department.

 

At this point you have a choice to go with them, or refuse and go with the Alliance.

[Master Warder Z_]

I would have started even earlier, with Cerberus staging a covert op on the Prison Shepard was in, offering him to actually do something to stop the Reapers instead of sitting on his ass to appease the alliance PR department.

 

At this point you have a choice to go with them, or refuse and go with the Alliance.

 

*coughs*

 

In my narrative Shepard can actually kick off the Citadel Coup in act two to basically institute a human led war effort against the Reapers, supported obviously by Cerberus Commandos and assorted mercenaries that basically neutralize C-Sec and hold the Council(including Anderson or Udina at gunpoint) until their demands are met, instituting a martial law on the Citadel under Cerberus control, which actually results in my opinion the neatest Cerberus war asset (God I hate that term) a Super Dreadnaught that they basically force the alien population of the Citadel to construct in the wards which is christened the Olympus Mons By TIM as its basically the largest organically constructed ship in known history at damn near the size of a Reaper(it takes almost eight months to construct even with round the clock slave and skilled labor) 

 

It grant as much battlefield potential as four normal Alliance Dreadnaughts.

 

It becomes the flagship of the Allied Fleet in the push to retake Earth in the final act, with TIM himself actually coming out of the shadows to watch because if they fail here, they won't have enough left to even slow the Reapers any longer, this is the Cerberus path conclusion which leads to several endings depending upon just how well that final push and retaking Earth goes, resulting in anything from TIM and Cerberus basically all killed in action when they ram the dreadnaught into Harbinger(which kills the stupid squid) to Cerberus basically becoming the unifying force for Humanity in the aftermath with the Alliance being decimated beyond repair with much of its military and political voice destroyed.

[Shechinah]

I would like to note that I am not opposed to a morally grey organization;

During a thread in which we discussed what kind of antagonists we’d like to see, one thing led to another and I had this idea for a shadow organization though it should be noted they were not necessarily an antagonistic element;

Basically, the Andromeda galaxy has different factions who think differently of the multiracial ships from the Milky Way. I shall from now on refer to the Milky Wayans as Milkies and the Andromeda as Andies.

Some within the factions would be in favor of establishing trade, providing aid and others be more suspicious and some aggressive. Because the Milkies are viewed with very suspicious eyes and are far outmatched by the Andies, they are very restricted in what they can do and have to work an uphill battle to build their place in the Andromeda galaxy.

A group of people decide to form a shadow organization that would do what was necessary to protect the Milkes and further their efforts to secure a place in the Andromeda civilizations. They would recruit from the Milkies and work through cloak and dagger methods. They’d handle issues that the Milkies would be unable to handle either because of restrictions or because the issue was might be solved through illegal means: An example of the former would be dealing with criminal elements that took advantage of the Milkies being unable to pursue them into other territory and an example of the former would be skipping paperwork to more quickly acquire supplies through the Andromeda underworld.

 

The shadow organization would also sabotage, frame and even assassinate certain Andies depending on in what manner they opposed the Milkies’ efforts such as if they funded criminal attacks against them, politically clotheslined them or attempted assassinations and so forth. Since being linked to the Milkies would only damage their efforts, they would try to disguise the involvement of a shadow organization. They would also not be led by a single person but by multiple people. The shadow organization would be multiracial as the Milkies are composed of multiple races. They would have agents amongst the Milkies in different places.

One such agent would turn out to be the original leader of the player character’s squad. The leader would have gone missing in action and be declared death but in actuality, it would later turn out that they had faked their death so as to work full-time with the shadow organization that they had been a member of and provided information to.

The idea being that the player having had enough time to establish a relationship with the leader as they’d have gone missing later in the game and the player having served as their subordinate though acting as point man in the field and having leadership on the field during some missions while the leader remained at base to coordinate and such.

[Laughing_Man]

 a Super Dreadnaught that they basically force the alien population of the Citadel to construct in the wards which is christened the Olympus Mons By TIM as its basically the largest organically constructed ship in known history at damn near the size of a Reaper(it takes almost eight months to construct even with round the clock slave and skilled labor) 

 

It grant as much battlefield potential as four normal Alliance Dreadnaughts.

 

It becomes the flagship of the Allied Fleet in the push to retake Earth in the final act, with TIM himself actually coming out of the shadows to watch because if they fail here, they won't have enough left to even slow the Reapers any longer, this is the Cerberus path conclusion which leads to several endings depending upon just how well that final push and retaking Earth goes, resulting in anything from TIM and Cerberus basically all killed in action when they ram the dreadnaught into Harbinger

 

The problem with something like this is that an Alliance Dreadnought the size of a Reaper is still inferior to a single Reaper, technologically speaking.

 

You need to think outside the box when it comes to defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare, it can be a Death Star, it can be trying to control the Reapers, or it can be something else, but a single Super Dreadnought that is on par with a single large Reaper will most assuredly not suffice.

[Laughing_Man]

I would like to note that I am not opposed to a morally grey organization;

*snip*

 

Not bad, not bad at all.

[GoldenGail3]

Like Sith or Jedi type of thing? Good or bad? But a more advanced version of it, sounds interesting, I suppose.

[AlanC9]

The problem with something like this is that an Alliance Dreadnought the size of a Reaper is still inferior to a single Reaper, technologically speaking.
 
You need to think outside the box when it comes to defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare, it can be a Death Star, it can be trying to control the Reapers, or it can be something else, but a single Super Dreadnought that is on par with a single large Reaper will most assuredly not suffice.

Anyone else thinking of Freespace 2?

[Dean_the_Young]

@Master Warder Z_:
The problem with Cerberus' presentation is that we never got the impression those atrocities were necessary. They were totally over-the-top, with a significant dose of drama over common sense. I mean any ruthless but sane scientist would try to limit the fallout of their experiments, even if only for reasons of economy and reputation. Cerberus was like they don't care at all about ethics, rather than "I regret what I have to do but it's necessary."

 

That was a problem of the writers in general, quite frankly. Mass Effect never quite went away from 'advantage and advanced science = atrocity' sort of moral delimmas or set-ups- and more to the point, almost never had any advantage actually pay off in the way it was cast as.

 

Was it you who once pointed out that Renegade utiliatarian arguments in Mass Effect typically failed on utilitarian grounds, because Paragon always got better results with less costs?

[Master Warder Z_]

The problem with something like this is that an Alliance Dreadnought the size of a Reaper is still inferior to a single Reaper, technologically speaking.

You need to think outside the box when it comes to defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare, it can be a Death Star, it can be trying to control the Reapers, or it can be something else, but a single Super Dreadnought that is on par with a single large Reaper will most assuredly not suffice.

>.>

You think there is anything standard about that ship at all?

No point in doing spoiler alerts or anything for a event tree but depending on choices erm... That ship can be the most advanced piece of construction of the cycle.

It basically ultilizes fully powered Reaper main guns in base form. It's series of 'upgrades' do anything from housing a collection of signal jammers that have the ability to interfere with control of Reaper forces to having the intact Reaper brain as a portion of its primary computer.

That said its only a single ship in a fleet.

It's just...the biggest thing in game.

Every fleet needs its Dolos.

[Laughing_Man]

>.>

You think there is anything standard about that ship at all?

No point in doing spoiler alerts or anything for a event tree but depending on choices erm... That ship can be the most advanced piece of construction of the cycle.

It basically ultilizes fully powered Reaper main guns in base form. It's series of 'upgrades' do anything from housing a collection of signal jammers that have the ability to interfere with control of Reaper forces to having the intact Reaper brain as a portion of its primary computer.

That said its only a single ship in a fleet.

It's just...the biggest thing in game.

Every fleet needs its Dolos.

 

Hmm... that would still leave the problems of possible Indoctrination for everyone who worked or served on that ship, but assuming you somehow managed to solve indoctrination, I guess that's somewhat better.

[thepiebaker]

While there is a lot of good stuff in your post, this bit here really confuses me to the point where I wonder if we even played the same game, as your description simply doesn't describe the Renegade alignment in Mass Effect. OK, there are a couple of dialogues where you can be racist and a few occasions where you can kill for the shits and giggles (which you can always skip if it doesn't fit your character...), but the vast majority of Renegade options are a mix of disrespect for rules and authority in order to get the job done, and doing what serves the greater good instead of taking the "nice" option without any care for the likely consequences.

I have recently described the paragon/renegade system to my girlfriend as I try to convert her to the fandom by comparing it to the DnD alignment chart with paragon being lawful good and renegade being chaotic good. (DnD was how she and I met so was a decent comparison point) Renegade is in all intensive purposes good but you break the rules you do your thing and get the job done guaranteed way, usually with a cold body. Paragon is the "all lives matter"/let's negotiate type.

 

Before I just established a LotSB situation of a criminal has a hostage. Paragon talks the criminal down the renegade shoots the hostage in the foot (usually a non threatening injury) to cause the criminal to drop the hostage and give you the chance to kill the criminal.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hmm... that would still leave the problems of possible Indoctrination for everyone who worked or served on that ship, but assuming you somehow managed to solve indoctrination, I guess that's somewhat better.

Oh there is a work around.

Most of the crew is inorganic VI delegated slave circuits. Only a handful of critical stations such as weapons, communications, navigation and engines have human presence.

Nothing living is interacting with Reaper processes.

That's actually TIM's solution for utilization of Reaper materials. Basically just removing the human element entirely wherever possible.