219 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Regardless who made the deal on the mages side, he/she will get the hate.

Pretty much.

 

The deal was moronic.  So the person who makes the deal takes the flak.

[Hellion Rex]

Quite. Fiona was frustrating as hell, but trust me, if someone else had made the deal, I would be just as furious at them for being so moronic.

[Cute Nug]

Cole was the only one to say he would find who was responsible for the murder of the Tranquils. Maybe Cole would judge Fiona for abandoning them. The Quizzy never mentions it so I don't think they cared about it. Quizzy has Tranquil issues apparently. 

 

Sucks to be Tranquil in Thedas.

[GreaterGoodIreland]

Pretty much.

 

The deal was moronic.  So the person who makes the deal takes the flak.

You know what would have been more moronic?

 

Letting the Templars or Fereldan Army slaughter the mages, the former because they've become genocidal zealots and the latter because the rogue conflict basically gutted some of the most fertile lands in the country. The alternative to the deal was death for all of the mages, children included.

 

We can all play Captain Hindsight as we know the full story, but Fiona certainly didn't, and she was facing just such a slaughter if she didn't act quickly. Hence why pre-timewarp Fiona was in Val Royeaux, and why post-timewarp Fiona took the deal. The Inquisition wasn't an option for the latter when she made the decision, and it wasn't like she could predict them showing up.

[SgtSteel91]

Quite. Fiona was frustrating as hell, but trust me, if someone had made the deal, I would be just as furious at them for being so moronic.

 

I'm frustrated at the writers for contriving such a dumb and character assassinating way to set up In Hushed Whispers.

 

People shouldn't blame Fiona, she's not a real person. Blame the writers who wrote that a former slave and Grey Warden sell herself and her people to a Magister.

[sniper_arrow]

You know what would have been more moronic?

 

Letting the Templars or Fereldan Army slaughter the mages, the former because they've become genocidal zealots and the latter because the rogue conflict basically gutted some of the most fertile lands in the country. The alternative to the deal was death for all of the mages, children included.

 

We can all play Captain Hindsight as we know the full story, but Fiona certainly didn't, and she was facing just such a slaughter if she didn't act quickly. Hence why pre-timewarp Fiona was in Val Royeaux, and why post-timewarp Fiona took the deal. The Inquisition wasn't an option for the latter when she made the decision, and it wasn't like she could predict them showing up.

 

You know what would have been more moronic?

 

Letting the Templars or Fereldan Army slaughter the mages, the former because they've become genocidal zealots and the latter because the rogue conflict basically gutted some of the most fertile lands in the country. The alternative to the deal was death for all of the mages, children included.

 

We can all play Captain Hindsight as we know the full story, but Fiona certainly didn't, and she was facing just such a slaughter if she didn't act quickly. Hence why pre-timewarp Fiona was in Val Royeaux, and why post-timewarp Fiona took the deal. The Inquisition wasn't an option for the latter when she made the decision, and it wasn't like she could predict them showing up.

 

What evidence do you have that the Fereldan army killing the mages? 

[Cute Nug]

You know what would have been more moronic?

 

Letting the Templars or Fereldan Army slaughter the mages, the former because they've become genocidal zealots and the latter because the rogue conflict basically gutted some of the most fertile lands in the country. The alternative to the deal was death for all of the mages, children included.

 

We can all play Captain Hindsight as we know the full story, but Fiona certainly didn't, and she was facing just such a slaughter if she didn't act quickly. Hence why pre-timewarp Fiona was in Val Royeaux, and why post-timewarp Fiona took the deal. The Inquisition wasn't an option for the latter when she made the decision, and it wasn't like she could predict them showing up.

 

I would agree if post-timederp Fiona left Redcliffe with her evil Tevinter BFF before the Quizzy arrived but she had an out and chose mustache twirling evil. I'm sure a chantry inspired group like the Inquisition might not be her dream choice to save the rebel mages but she ends up being as moronic as Orlesion grey wardens.

 

In Haven she didn't seem that upset about the mages, children included, that the Ventatori killed if they weren't useful.

[KaiserShep]

I feel that her story would have been better if in skipping In Hushed Whispers, Fiona reaches her limit when the Venatori decide to launch an assault on the Inquisition, she gets killed off for being uncooperative, and they just use the now leaderless mage underlings as cannon fodder. I suppose assaulting the Inquisition at Haven might seem preferable to her if she's into the plan of wiping out the last bastion of what remains of the Templar order, which I guess is what the Inquisition is if you do Champions of the Just. 

[TK514]

She didn't really have a position, the circle of magi was dissolved, she was no longer Grand Enchanter, a position that only exist within the circle. The mages that followed her followed her out of mutual agreement, that the circles should dissolve. After the Inquisitor either allies with the mages or subjugates them she isn't given a new position in either case, she's still just the person most mages delegate their issues through. As some may recall the on the war map there is a mission where mages who were supposed to be with the inquisition flee and you can choose to deal with them in three 3 ways depending on who you ask to handle it. Point being it's a example of Fiona not being in charge of the mages but rather being the person who most of the mages trust.

 

It's a fair point.  We should have been able to exile her from the Inquisition, then.  As for the mission you describe, my memory is hazy but I believe that only happens if you conscript.

[ModernAcademic]

While what Fiona did was inexcusable - selling herself and her fellow mages as slaves to a Magister, the rebel mages were in a bind.

 

They were being slaughtered by the remnants of the templar order on the roads and villages. And because they were considered dangerous, no one would shelter them. 

 

So it was either accept Alexius' offer or eventually wait for a revolt to happen during their stay in Redcliffe. And even if nothing happened during their stay in the village, sooner or later, whatever authority remained of the Chantry would send what few loyal templars there were in the not so distant future (Sr Barris and his men, for instance) to imprison the rebel mages, sentence them to death or make them Tranquil.

 

 

 

It was a no-win scenario. Fiona had to choose between a bad option and an even worse one. Either way, she comes off as the wrong party in this whole affair.

[Big I]

I couldn't stand Fiona. Would have loved to be able to make her Tranquil.

[sim-ran]

You can always savor killing her in Champions of the Just, at least that option provides some self-satisfied justice.

I hate to admit it but I absolutely DO this! I mean at that point she's gone even further - she's trying to kill the Inquisitor, the one person who can stop the world getting swallowed by the breach. And openly allying with Corypheus without any mind control involved. How was she ever a warden, Grand Enchanter and rebel?!

[sim-ran]

There's a few posta on here that think understanding why someone did something morally dubioud means they shouldn't be judged. That isn't how the world works, and that's not how judgements work in Inquisition either, except for with her it seems.

We judge the mayor of Crestwood, and the Quarry owner in Emprise du Lion. Both their actions are understandable, and you can account for that in your judgement. There is still a judgement though.

On another angle, imagine if the Prime Minister put people into indentured servitude due to an extreme circumstance that was then resolved. Can you imagine people not demanding that he/she step down at the very least?

[Shechinah]

We judge the mayor of Crestwood, and the Quarry owner in Emprise du Lion. Both their actions are understandable, and you can account for that in your judgement. There is still a judgement though.

 

Though I should note that I believe Fereldan and Orlais relegated judgement to the Inquisition on these two cases.
 

[sim-ran]

Because the devs wrote it that way. They could've written that the freed mages deferred to the Inquisitor too. Or even just ousted her themselves (actually that would've been even better).

[Terodil]

Why is it so hard to understand that you can be pro-mage freedom and still hate the way Fiona & Co. went about it? Calling the vote at the time she did really messed things up beyond FUBAR, templars/seekers having gone bad notwithstanding.

I'd have loved an option to grab both the templar and the mage leaderships by their scruffs and sit them in the sandbox and have them duke it out with little shovels and buckets.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Pretty much.

 

The deal was moronic.  So the person who makes the deal takes the flak.

 

Additionally, Fiona was even more of a moron for upholding the deal. Based on The Calling and Asunder, Fiona is supposed to be a rebel and someone who is anti status quo.

 

The Fiona in the books, would have made a deal of alliance with the Inquisition in the Redcliffe tavern itself, gave Alexius the finger and started a bar fight with the Tevinter Magister right then and there instead of willingly allowing herself to be indentured to Alexius.

 

I mean, this woman decided to give the Chantry and the Templars the finger during a tense moment in Asunder despite the consequences but she is willing to go along with the whims of a single Tevinter Magister who doesn't seem to be supported by his own son. That is just preposterous and ridiculous on a whole new level.

 

 

Why is it so hard to understand that you can be pro-mage freedom and still hate the way Fiona & Co. went about it? Calling the vote at the time she did really messed things up beyond FUBAR, templars/seekers having gone bad notwithstanding.

I'd have loved an option to grab both the templar and the mage leaderships by their scruffs and sit them in the sandbox and have them duke it out with little shovels and buckets.

 

I am pro-Circle reformation. The Circle system is a good system that needs a bit of tweaking and some more incentives. Rebelling against the Chantry and the Templars during such a tense moment without any logistically sound long term battle plan to manage the mages and fight the Templars is really stupid, especially for an ex-Grey Warden turned Grand Enchanter.

[Patricia08]

Anyone else wish this? I know it's really petty but the fact that she stays in command after selling all the mages into slavery and hangs around in Skyhold makes me more reluctant to side with the mages.

Which is a shame as Hushed Whispers is so atmospheric and really makes you feel the stakes you're playing for.

 

I actually like Fiona but still she did terrible things and she should be judged by that so i am all for it. 

[Gileadan]

I was glad for her that she found all these new friends from Tevinter. None of her mages really objected either unless you count the occasional mumbling and shuffling of feet. My job was to clean out a demon infestation, not to second guess other people's political decisions.

All was well until she tried to scrap my trebuchets. What the hell did I ever do to her? Nothing, that's what.

So I slapped her until she stopped. She didn't get back up.
Elves...

[SnakeCode]

Why is it so hard to understand that you can be pro-mage freedom and still hate the way Fiona & Co. went about it? Calling the vote at the time she did really messed things up beyond FUBAR, templars/seekers having gone bad notwithstanding.

I'd have loved an option to grab both the templar and the mage leaderships by their scruffs and sit them in the sandbox and have them duke it out with little shovels and buckets.

 

Terodil! It's been forever.

[vbibbi]

Wait you want to judge her because she took a offer to protect the mages under her leadership? She didn't even know about what happened at the temple of Sacred Ashes yet when Alexis approached her about amnesty in Tevinter. So imagine being told by a Tevinter Mage about what happened at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, and then being told that he could get you out of Ferelden let alone Southern Thedas before the entirety of Southern Thedas blamed the mages and came headhunting. Also Alexis was in charge of the mages after Fiona agreed to hand over control of the mages under her leadership to Alexis, so anything the mages did at that point was because Alexis told them to do it.

 
Apparently Southern Thedas holds an idiot ball when it comes to Tevinter. Despite being seen as the magical boogeymen, the alienage elves were desperate enough to allow themselves to be quarantined and trust that the Fereldan government, who had never cared about them before, was now sending across the world for these Tevinter "healers."

And now, Fiona just takes Alexius at his word when he tells her what happened at the Conclave? Gee, I wonder if he could have ulterior motives in making her think she has no other option than to sell her people into indentured servitude? She even realizes how convenient his timing was in showing up right after the Conclave. But someone who was a former slave, chose to fight the entire Chantry and Templar Order, is now going to listen to one boogeyman telling her information that she's not going to fact check, and will willingly place all of her people into servitude?

"Imagine being told by a Tevinter mage"...okay anything after that is irrelevant. Realistically, anyone in Southern Thedas should take anything told to them by a Tevinter mage with a healthy dose of suspicion. Dorian is the exception to the rule, every other Tevinter mage we have seen to date has been untrustworthy and self-interested.
 

What war crimes did they actually commit other than defending themselves against the Templars?

 
Hmm, I don't see many Tranquil around Redcliffe, only the one who is afraid for his safety and wants to escape to the protection of the Inquisition. But these are nice creepy glowing skulls...
 

All these threads make me think the alliance with Tevinter wouldn't have given the mages the flak they get if anyone other than Fiona was the one who made it.
 
Seriously, it seems the mage hate is more Fiona hate.

It isworse that it's Fiona, since her character is established as a former slave, a former Grey Warden, the grand enchanter who would rather die fighting the system than give in...but now she is willing to become a slave again and basically give all of her people into the military of a foreign nation. I know she's not a Fereldan citizen, but the country did grant her amnesty, so that seems like treason to me.
 
 

You know what would have been more moronic?
 
Letting the Templars or Fereldan Army slaughter the mages, the former because they've become genocidal zealots and the latter because the rogue conflict basically gutted some of the most fertile lands in the country. The alternative to the deal was death for all of the mages, children included.
 
We can all play Captain Hindsight as we know the full story, but Fiona certainly didn't, and she was facing just such a slaughter if she didn't act quickly. Hence why pre-timewarp Fiona was in Val Royeaux, and why post-timewarp Fiona took the deal. The Inquisition wasn't an option for the latter when she made the decision, and it wasn't like she could predict them showing up.

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that the Fereldan army would have harmed any mages. Why would the monarch provide one of the most defensible castles in their country to the mages and then have the army turn on them? If they were going to do that, why not give them an old, poorly maintained castle where the army would have an easy time of killing them?

[Shechinah]

 
Apparently Southern Thedas holds an idiot ball when it comes to Tevinter. Despite being seen as the magical boogeymen, the alienage elves were desperate enough to allow themselves to be quarantined and trust that the Fereldan government, who had never cared about them before, was now sending across the world for these Tevinter "healers."

 

To be fair, a sickness especially in a capital city that could develop into a city-wide epidemic would warrant some attention from the authorities so there is some merit in some of the elves' belief that the crown might be interested in helping them if only to learn about the sickness and a potential cure. They may believe that quarantining and burning the Alienage might be seen as too dangerous in terms of the fire spreading to the surrounding area. For most it was likely down to desperation and fear. 
 

[Iakus]

What evidence do you have that the Fereldan army killing the mages? 

Because the mages kicked out the Arl and took over Redcliffe.

 

Oh, wait, that was Tevinter 

[vbibbi]

To be fair, a sickness especially in a capital city that could develop into a city-wide epidemic would warrant some attention from the authorities so there is some merit in some of the elves' belief that the crown might be interested in helping them if only to learn about the sickness and a potential cure. They may believe that quarantining and burning the Alienage might be seen as too dangerous in terms of the fire spreading to the surrounding area. For most it was likely down to desperation and fear. 
 

True, and it's not like the elves had other options in seeking treatment. And at least they are expressing doubt as to the effectiveness of the treatment (at least Shianni is). But there are still people who aren't too concerned that healthy elves are going into the quarantine and never coming out.

[animedreamer]

Letting an outside force kicking out an arl from his own home even without doing anything (let's face it, even Fiona would consider this wrong), for starters?

 

The mages were given asylum if I recall in Redcliff it wasn't until Alexis outist Arl Teagan that this became a offense. What would you have Fiona do? At that point she had already signed on as an indentured servant to Alexis like the majority of the adult mages with her. If that is the case it is still squarely on the employer ie Alexis if any fault is made or had in terms of what he did with his servants.

 

 

It sounds like you guys are confusing Alexis's crimes with Fiona's, Fiona didn't order anyone to do anything after accepting Alexis's offer she had no power and was only kind of in charge when Alexis was busy doing something else, which was hardly ever.