219 réponses à ce sujet

[vbibbi]

The mages were given asylum if I recall in Redcliff it wasn't until Alexis outist Arl Teagan that this became a offense. What would you have Fiona do? At that point she had already signed on as an indentured servant to Alexis like the majority of the adult mages with her. If that is the case it is still squarely on the employer ie Alexis if any fault is made or had in terms of what he did with his servants.

 

 

It sounds like you guys are confusing Alexis's crimes with Fiona's, Fiona didn't order anyone to do anything after accepting Alexis's offer she had no power and was only kind of in charge when Alexis was busy doing something else, which was hardly ever. 

 

"I was only following orders."

[Barquiel]

"I was only following orders."

People don't want to judge all these templars who were "only following orders".

[Terodil]

It sounds like you guys are confusing Alexis's crimes with Fiona's, Fiona didn't order anyone to do anything after accepting Alexis's offer she had no power and was only kind of in charge when Alexis was busy doing something else, which was hardly ever.

So much nope.

She still is her own person, with her own conscience and supposedly her own sense of responsibility. "I was following orders" is not enough to absolve of guilt, especially for a person who has demonstrated her willingness to oppose authorities and the status quo, no matter the cost.

I'm pretty certain she did not have a direct hand in the deaths of all the tranquil, but why didn't she of all people know about it and act against it? Gross dereliction of duty IMO, if not on legal, then on moral grounds.

Edit: Sorry. Didn't see the last page before I hit 'reply'. @Barquiel: I do want to. And in part, the game even allows me to -- I get to kill Lucius, and apparently most of the templar leadership dies of other causes (red lyrium / fighting). Not so with the mages. Fiona just smiles at me broadly. <Corypheus voice> The gall. </Corypheus voice>

[animedreamer]

 
Apparently Southern Thedas holds an idiot ball when it comes to Tevinter. Despite being seen as the magical boogeymen, the alienage elves were desperate enough to allow themselves to be quarantined and trust that the Fereldan government, who had never cared about them before, was now sending across the world for these Tevinter "healers."

And now, Fiona just takes Alexius at his word when he tells her what happened at the Conclave? Gee, I wonder if he could have ulterior motives in making her think she has no other option than to sell her people into indentured servitude? She even realizes how convenient his timing was in showing up right after the Conclave. But someone who was a former slave, chose to fight the entire Chantry and Templar Order, is now going to listen to one boogeyman telling her information that she's not going to fact check, and will willingly place all of her people into servitude?

"Imagine being told by a Tevinter mage"...okay anything after that is irrelevant. Realistically, anyone in Southern Thedas should take anything told to them by a Tevinter mage with a healthy dose of suspicion. Dorian is the exception to the rule, every other Tevinter mage we have seen to date has been untrustworthy and self-interested.
 
 
Hmm, I don't see many Tranquil around Redcliffe, only the one who is afraid for his safety and wants to escape to the protection of the Inquisition. But these are nice creepy glowing skulls...
 

It isworse that it's Fiona, since her character is established as a former slave, a former Grey Warden, the grand enchanter who would rather die fighting the system than give in...but now she is willing to become a slave again and basically give all of her people into the military of a foreign nation. I know she's not a Fereldan citizen, but the country did grant her amnesty, so that seems like treason to me.
 
 

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere that the Fereldan army would have harmed any mages. Why would the monarch provide one of the most defensible castles in their country to the mages and then have the army turn on them? If they were going to do that, why not give them an old, poorly maintained castle where the army would have an easy time of killing them?

Did you just forget about the temple of Sacred Ashes blowing up? Even if for some miraculous reason Alistair or Anora believed the Mages didn't do it, do you honestly think Ferelden would defend the mages against the combined might of all Southern Thedas, the Templars, and potentially the Inquisition if everything went Balls-up and everyone assumed the mages did it?

[thesuperdarkone2]

So much nope.She still is her own person, with her own conscience and supposedly her own sense of responsibility. "I was following orders" is not enough to absolve of guilt, especially for a person who has demonstrated her willingness to oppose authorities and the status quo, no matter the cost.I'm pretty certain she did not have a direct hand in the deaths of all the tranquil, but why didn't she of all people know about it and act against it? Gross dereliction of duty IMO, if not on legal, then on moral grounds.Edit: Sorry. Didn't see the last page before I hit 'reply'. @Barquiel: I do want to. The game doesn't allow me to.

Then do you also the the Templars because a lot of the bad things they do was 'just following orders'

[JadeDragon]

Unlike those Templars she is the leader of her group and has much more insight. The templars who did know well we do get to judge one of them after he killed The Knight Vigilant who by the way seemed like he was going to set the Templars back on track and rebel against the plans Red Templars set up hence his death. We kill the Lord Seeker as well and the only well minded Templar Ser Barris well we put him in charge of the Order so the Inquisition at least handles the Templar situation pretty good. While Fiona if sided with the mages will always lead the College of Enchanters at the end. So despite her questionable leadership skills she once again becomes the leader of the mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Unlike those Templars she is the leader of her group and has much more insight. The templars who did know well we do get to judge one of them after he killed The Knight Vigilant who by the way seemed like he was going to set the Templars back on track and rebel against the plans Red Templars set up hence his death. We kill the Lord Seeker as well and the only well minded Templar Ser Barris well we put him in charge of the Order so the Inquisition at least handles the Templar situation pretty good. While Fiona if sided with the mages will always lead the College of Enchanters at the end. So despite her questionable leadership skills she once again becomes the leader of the mages.

Barris never becomes leader if you conscript the Templars. Also he's a knight commander. Did you forget there are Multiple knight commanders? Remind me how one knight commander is supposed to prevent the same abuses Templars have done?

[animedreamer]

So much nope.

She still is her own person, with her own conscience and supposedly her own sense of responsibility. "I was following orders" is not enough to absolve of guilt, especially for a person who has demonstrated her willingness to oppose authorities and the status quo, no matter the cost.

I'm pretty certain she did not have a direct hand in the deaths of all the tranquil, but why didn't she of all people know about it and act against it? Gross dereliction of duty IMO, if not on legal, then on moral grounds.

Edit: Sorry. Didn't see the last page before I hit 'reply'. @Barquiel: I do want to. The game doesn't allow me to.

oppose authority when there is no noose over my neck, sure.. tell me That the biggest religious sect in the world thinks me and my people blew up their leaders, and I promise you I'd be looking for the first helping hand to get me out of the country. There is no proof she knew anything about the killing of the Tranquil (at least not that I recall), she didn't directly attack you, she was actually quite receptive of the Inquisitor even going so far as saying if you had only arrived sooner things might have been different. The only thing I can think of that she did that was wrong, was push for the dismemberment of the Circle, that was a mistake in my book, as she should have known the Templars and the Chantry would never relinquish their most prized position, as it was a sign of what they claimed was their sacred duty, as well as partially why they got their revenue from. (while it wasn't specifically stated I can't help but draw a comparison to the Prison Ship Shepard gets Jack from in ME2, where the Warden indirectly states he uses prisons as heavy handed negotiating tools to make planetary governments donate to the up kick of the ship. Would be so hard to scare kings of queens into tributing to the Chantry's upkick of Mage Towers and so on in order to allow the Chantry to keep Mages under their secured roof.

[Gileadan]

The difference is that at the end of Champions of the Just, the templars that just followed orders are dead - killed by the Inquisitor and more importantly by those templars who stood up against their corrupted leadership and brethren. The surviving corrupt leader is judged by the Inquisitor. The templar order undergoes a harsh cleansing before they join the Inquisition.

Mages? You get everyone who trudged along with their new Venatori friends, including the one who made the deal.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The difference is that at the end of Champions of the Just, the templars that just followed orders are dead - killed by the Inquisitor and more importantly by those templars who stood up against their corrupted leadership and brethren. The surviving corrupt leader is judged by the Inquisitor. The templar order undergoes a harsh cleansing before they join the Inquisition.

Mages? You get everyone who trudged along with their new Venatori friends, including the one who made the deal.

What proof do you have that all the bad Templars are dead? In case you forgot, some of the Templars during the banner scene openly complain that they aren't killing mages, the Templar complaining about the inquisition not hunting mages, and the silver shield ending show Mage hate is still around.

[Barquiel]

The difference is that at the end of Champions of the Just, the templars that just followed orders are dead - killed by the Inquisitor and more importantly by those templars who stood up against their corrupted leadership and brethren. The surviving corrupt leader is judged by the Inquisitor. The templar order undergoes a harsh cleansing before they join the Inquisition.

Mages? You get everyone who trudged along with their new Venatori friends, including the one who made the deal.

The templars you recruit in "Champions of the Just" followed Lucius for months (as we see in Val Royeaux),...following bad order after bad order (Minaeve says people like her and the tranquil had nowhere to go because the templars killed everyone), and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. And all this happened before the red lyrium thing.

[vbibbi]

People don't want to judge all these templars who were "only following orders".

 

Some people might not want to, but I also hold the templars accountable for their actions. As others have said, most of their leadership has already died or been turned into red templars, though, so it's really just Lucius at this point who needs to be judged. And we just kill him instead. The templars don't get off scott free if we do CotJ. Barris is placed in charge, but he was not in a leadership position prior to this, so he had not made any of the disastrous decisions that led to red templars. And we only make him the leader after he's proven himself in multiple war table missions.

 

It would be better if the mage path went like this. I don't want to kill Fiona, just remove her from leadership and allow some other mage, through proving their abilities and loyalty to the Inquisition, to be appointed the leader of the mages under the Inquisition. What happens after the Inquisition disbands and the Circles and College are created is out of our hands, but we should have the choice of who acts as the representative of the mages who have joined the Inquisition.

 

Did you just forget about the temple of Sacred Ashes blowing up? Even if for some miraculous reason Alistair or Anora believed the Mages didn't do it, do you honestly think Ferelden would defend the mages against the combined might of all Southern Thedas, the Templars, and potentially the Inquisition if everything went Balls-up and everyone assumed the mages did it?

 

When Alistair/Anora kicks the mages out of Redcliffe, they make no mention of the Conclave or think that the mages had anything to do with it. Though you're right, Alexius kicking Teagan out of his lands and forcing most people out of Redcliffe would make them more suspicious of the mages, after they had shown them nothing but amnesty and good will.

 

But it sounds like you'd rather the mages take the offensive and proactively go against Ferelden, since the country could potentially turn on them later. Better to turn on them first.

[Medhia_Nox]

The templars you recruit in "Champions of the Just" followed Lucius for months (as we see in Val Royeaux),...following bad order after bad order (Minaeve says people like her and the tranquil had nowhere to go because the templars killed everyone), and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. And all this happened before the red lyrium thing.

 

Which is why I conscripted the Templars and didn't form an alliance with them. 

 

Neither group should be allowed to simply "be free" after the stunt they both pulled.  Had Corypheus not attacked, I think the ringleaders of both groups should be put to the sword... the mages should be reassigned to new Circles far from their old associates, each Circle should be overseen by a Knight Commander... and the Templars should no longer directly be led by Seekers, but directly overseen by the First Enchanter.  

[Hellion Rex]

each Circle should be overseen by a Knight Commander... and the Templars should no longer directly be led by Seekers, but directly overseen by the First Enchanter.  

Huh. Interesting flip of the normal way it works....

[vbibbi]

Barris never becomes leader if you conscript the Templars. Also he's a knight commander. Did you forget there are Multiple knight commanders? Remind me how one knight commander is supposed to prevent the same abuses Templars have done?

 

It's a bug in the game that Barris isn't promoted if conscripted. Also, he was not a knight commander when he started. All of the knight commanders at Therinfall were either in on red lyrium or were killed if they disagreed. Every sane templar remaining was in the dark as to what was going on.

 

What proof do you have that all the bad Templars are dead? In case you forgot, some of the Templars during the banner scene openly complain that they aren't killing mages, the Templar complaining about the inquisition not hunting mages, and the silver shield ending show Mage hate is still around.

 

So because some templars are potentially still dicks, the former leader of the mages who incontrovertibly handed over the mages to a Tevinter dick should not be held accountable?

 

The templars you recruit in "Champions of the Just" followed Lucius for months (as we see in Val Royeaux),...following bad order after bad order (Minaeve says people like her and the tranquil had nowhere to go because the templars killed everyone), and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry. And all this happened before the red lyrium thing.

 

Agreed that the templars also were in the wrong. It's not like I think the templars were correct and the mages wrong. It's that I think both sides should be held accountable, and only the templars really are. Fiona faces no repercussions for her actions other than exile from Ferelden.

 

One could also apply Minaeve's argument to the templars who didn't want to follow orders. If the entire templar leadership left the Chantry, templars who disagreed would have nowhere to go (except Weisshaupt apparently). I do wish those templars had gone against their orders, they were bad orders and there were templars who joined the Inquisition like Lysette instead of following Lucius. But at least Barris does fight with us and makes himself useful.

 

TBH, I think the moral thing to do would be to conscript either side rather than ally with them. They have both proven incapable of good judgement and should not be allowed their independence during this conflict. We could reexamine their status once Cory is done and a new Divine is in place. But for the duration of the war against Cory it's not sensible to allow either mages or templars to be free allies.

[Gileadan]

What proof do you have that all the bad Templars are dead? In case you forgot, some of the Templars during the banner scene openly complain that they aren't killing mages, the Templar complaining about the inquisition not hunting mages, and the silver shield ending show Mage hate is still around.

Where would any living bad templar come from after CotJ? I don't think any surrendered and there was no talk or hint of any getting away.

But let's say a few of them escaped or pretended to be with the good ones because they guessed the corrupted side was going to lose... they can only be a small minority in hiding now because the order has killed the vast majority of the corrupted ones.

Mage hate is still around? I wonder why... because mages have done terrible things too? And we get all of them if we pick mages. Every "yay Venatori" fanboy, every mage supremacist, every "I'll just go along with this" idiot. Every "mages can govern themselves! (but we're totally not responsible for the apostate wrecking gang in the Hinterlands)" hypocrite.

Nah, thanks.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Which is why I conscripted the Templars and didn't form an alliance with them. 

 

Neither group should be allowed to simply "be free" after the stunt they both pulled.  Had Corypheus not attacked, I think the ringleaders of both groups should be put to the sword... the mages should be reassigned to new Circles far from their old associates, each Circle should be overseen by a Knight Commander... and the Templars should no longer directly be led by Seekers, but directly overseen by the First Enchanter.  

 

Funny how people seem to think that conscription equates to support.

[Cute Nug]

A real leader still concerned about those she led with good intentions to their current really bad situation would declare the indentured enslavement contract with Alexis voided by the fact he is an obvious abusive evil douche. Especially when another opportunity such as helping the Inquisition close that minor skyhole that threatens everyone in Thedas.

 

They wrote Alexis as too abusive and evil to not question Fiona decisions especially when any other option was available.

 

There is a quaint shack with horribly murdered Tranquil skulls which alone is enough to say staying indentured to Alexis is most likely the worst possible decision.

 

Whether the change in Fiona is bad character writing, a failure of character under cumulative stress, magical character manipulation out of her control, or other head cannon reason is individual choice in RP.

 

It's not wrong for those who are okay or happy with Fiona's character in DAI. It's role playing and what you enjoy in game is the right answer.

 

For me I find Fiona in DAI to be another sad failed character like Orsino in DA2. 

 

It's a way over played story in DA that almost every mage when stressed will choose the abomination, blood mage, harvester monster, and Venatori cultist path.

 

Should have been an option at Redcliffe to offer sanctuary to any rebel mages willing to leave their new Tranquil murdering employer Alexis. The pre-Quizzy only offers sanctuary to one Tranquil.

 

Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy have the option to provide sanctuary to at least the rebel mages they meet that want to leave their new evil master? Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy seem to care that there was a building with murdered Tranquil skulls?

 

Should someone judge the Quizzy when they are done judging Fiona? Teagan maybe? 

[thesuperdarkone2]

A real leader still concerned about those she led with good intentions to their current really bad situation would declare the indentured enslavement contract with Alexis voided by the fact he is an obvious abusive evil douche. Especially when another opportunity such as helping the Inquisition close that minor skyhole that threatens everyone in Thedas.

They wrote Alexis as too abusive and evil to not question Fiona decisions especially when any other option was available.

There is a quaint shack with horribly murdered Tranquil skulls which alone is enough to say staying indentured to Alexis is most likely the worst possible decision.

Whether the change in Fiona is bad character writing, a failure of character under cumulative stress, magical character manipulation out of her control, or other head cannon reason is individual choice in RP.

It's not wrong for those who are okay or happy with Fiona's character in DAI. It's role playing and what you enjoy in game is the right answer.

For me I find Fiona in DAI to be another sad failed character like Orsino in DA2.

It's a way over played story in DA that almost every mage when stressed will choose the abomination, blood mage, harvester monster, and Venatori cultist path.

Should have been an option at Redcliffe to offer sanctuary to any rebel mages willing to leave their new Tranquil murdering employer Alexis. The pre-Quizzy only offers sanctuary to one Tranquil.

Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy have the option to provide sanctuary to at least the rebel mages they meet that want to leave their new evil master? Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy seem to care that there was a building with murdered Tranquil skulls?

Should someone judge the Quizzy when they are done judging Fiona? Teagan maybe?

The same reason we can't close the breach with Vivienne's loyalists

[Iakus]

People don't want to judge all these templars who were "only following orders".

And you can disband the Templar Order, if you wish

[Bayonet Hipshot]

A real leader still concerned about those she led with good intentions to their current really bad situation would declare the indentured enslavement contract with Alexis voided by the fact he is an obvious abusive evil douche. Especially when another opportunity such as helping the Inquisition close that minor skyhole that threatens everyone in Thedas.

 

They wrote Alexis as too abusive and evil to not question Fiona decisions especially when any other option was available.

 

There is a quaint shack with horribly murdered Tranquil skulls which alone is enough to say staying indentured to Alexis is most likely the worst possible decision.

 

Whether the change in Fiona is bad character writing, a failure of character under cumulative stress, magical character manipulation out of her control, or other head cannon reason is individual choice in RP.

 

It's not wrong for those who are okay or happy with Fiona's character in DAI. It's role playing and what you enjoy in game is the right answer.

 

For me I find Fiona in DAI to be another sad failed character like Orsino in DA2. 

 

It's a way over played story in DA that almost every mage when stressed will choose the abomination, blood mage, harvester monster, and Venatori cultist path.

 

Should have been an option at Redcliffe to offer sanctuary to any rebel mages willing to leave their new Tranquil murdering employer Alexis. The pre-Quizzy only offers sanctuary to one Tranquil.

 

Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy have the option to provide sanctuary to at least the rebel mages they meet that want to leave their new evil master? Why doesn't the pre-Quizzy seem to care that there was a building with murdered Tranquil skulls?

 

Should someone judge the Quizzy when they are done judging Fiona? Teagan maybe? 

 

The Rebel Mages have already been granted refugee status by the Ferelden Crown. They sabotaged it by indenturing themselves to a Tevinter Magister.

 

The Inquisition does provide sanctuary to those who are part of the Rebel Mages but they wanted to leave. The problem was there was only one Tranquil, Clemence who was willing to do so. The Herald can care about it by showing it in their actions.

[Iakus]

Which is why I conscripted the Templars and didn't form an alliance with them. 

 

Neither group should be allowed to simply "be free" after the stunt they both pulled.  Had Corypheus not attacked, I think the ringleaders of both groups should be put to the sword... the mages should be reassigned to new Circles far from their old associates, each Circle should be overseen by a Knight Commander... and the Templars should no longer directly be led by Seekers, but directly overseen by the First Enchanter.  

Sadly, conscripting the Templars means no Ser Barris War Table missions.  Which are awesome.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  I am positive I got them (Barris' wartable missions) in my last playthrough... and I always conscript them (the Templars) (though, maybe I have to be wrong if these events simply don't happen?)  

 

I'll pay attention this game because I simply cannot side with the mages (I tried it and deleted that save) and I cannot forge an alliance with the Templars.    

[thesuperdarkone2]

@Iakus: I am positive I got them (Barris' wartable missions) in my last playthrough... and I always conscript them (the Templars) (though, maybe I have to be wrong if these events simply don't happen?)

I'll pay attention this game because I simply cannot side with the mages (I tried it and deleted that save) and I cannot forge an alliance with the Templars.

This makes me wonder, how many Templar supporters have actually played a pro Mage playthrough? I've made a pro Templar character but it seems some pro Templars haven't played a pro Mage character.

[vbibbi]

@Iakus:  I am positive I got them (Barris' wartable missions) in my last playthrough... and I always conscript them (the Templars) (though, maybe I have to be wrong if these events simply don't happen?)  

 

I'll pay attention this game because I simply cannot side with the mages (I tried it and deleted that save) and I cannot forge an alliance with the Templars.    

AFAIK, we should be able to get Barris' missions whether conscripted or allied, the missions might vary slightly though. And I don't know if the bug affects all systems, but we can't "judge"/promote Barris if conscripted, even though we're supposed to be able to. I think we were able to in an earlier version, but one of the patches created the bug.

 

It's too bad, because I would much rather conscript than ally with the templars but still want Barris to be promoted.