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[Cute Nug]

If there was a hypothetical judgement scene for Fiona, I'd hope one option was to not judge her. Alexius was doing everything, including breaking the fabric of time itself, to make her give up herself and her people to the Venatori. Against power like that, there no way she couldn't resist the Venatori taking over. And that before Alexius' intervention, she originally risked her life coming to Val Royeaux to offer an alliance with the Inquisition. In short, it's not your fault, it's Alexius'. Get that bastard out here for judgement.

 

 

 

Sweet DA art by kelgrid http://kelgrid.deviantart.com/

[Cute Nug]

 "NOBODY EXPECTS THE ORLESIAN INQUISTION. Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Our two weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency. Our three weapons- I'll come in again. NOBODY EXPECTS THE ORLESIAN INQUISITON. Amongst.. our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and nice beige outfits - Oh damn! NOBODY EXPECTS THE ORLESIAN INQUISITION. Our chief weapon is surprise. Bla bla bla bla bla."

[Dean_the_Young]

If there was a hypothetical judgement scene for Fiona, I'd hope one option was to not judge her. Alexius was doing everything, including breaking the fabric of time itself, to make her give up herself and her people to the Venatori. Against power like that, there no way she couldn't resist the Venatori taking over. And that before Alexius' intervention, she originally risked her life coming to Val Royeaux to offer an alliance with the Inquisition. In short, it's not your fault, it's Alexius'. Get that bastard out here for judgement.

 

I disagree on the amount of coercion Alexius had available, but I do agree a verdict of not-guilty, for whatever reason, would be appropriate. (I would have appreciated a similar role-playing option in Denam's context, but he was made to be hated).

 

What I would have appreciated just as much or more is not just the judgement, but to express the motive of why. One of the things about Denam's judgement is that the options changed slightly depending on if you found the corpse of the Knight-Vigilant. I'd have liked it if the discovery of the Tranquil could get a similar response.

 

So, in terms of mapping, you'd get your

 

-Basic judgement introduction

-Inquisitor's question, Fiona's defense

-Judgements

 

Judgements could be along the lines of

 

 

Guilty (With corresponding punishment)

-Mage rebellion unjustified (death for leading the Mage Rebellion and throwing the world into chaos)

-Complicity with Alexius rather than help stand against him (removed from Circle, conscript as an agent)

-Selling the mages into slavery, betraying that 'death before freedom' rhetoric of the rebellion (imprisonment rather than the new mage freedoms)

-Betraying Ferelden, untrustworthy (exile)

-(If Found) Failing to protect the Tranquil under her watch (Tranquility)

 

 

Not Guilty (No punishment, with Follow-on Dialogue for justification)

-Mage rebellion justified

-Blame Alexius

-Need for reconciliation to move on after the rebellion

-Saw the future which she was a victim, not complicit

 

 

 

So a Judgement in which the player can express a position on Fiona independent of their views of the mages, with both pro-Fiona defenses or anti-Fiona judgements depending on the player's position.

[GoldenGail3]

I'd do anti Fiona, to be honest.

[Iakus]

 

edit: I also think Lambert was just protecting the Seekers. Willing to throw everyone under the bus - mages, Divine, and duped Templars - just so they keep their secrets and mystique.

Just to play devil's advocate, Lambert was from Tevinter, and saw firsthand what life was like for a muggle in an empire run by blood mages.  He was willing to do a lot of terrible things to ensure that never happened to the south.

[Akiza]

Okay I admit, this made me laugh.

I'm glad you laughed because i was not able to,since i didn't even understood that mind boggling pseudo philosophical supper of the

"concept x is not tangible but it exist" when the discussion was on about delegation of legal authorities.

[Iakus]

The point is that there are many methods in which legal judgments can occur. Class action law suits, inter- or intranational tribunals, etc. The Inquisition can be seen as a similar role (functionally, not results based) as the United Nations judging political and military leaders.

 

Unless the person I was judging served Corypheus (like Alexius) or acted acted specifically against the Inquisition (like that Avvar who flung a goat at Skyhold) I typically sent them to some other governing body to judge.  Like the Wardens or Ferelden.

 

WTF gives the Inquisition the authority to judge these people?

[Dean_the_Young]

Just to play devil's advocate, Lambert was from Tevinter, and saw firsthand what life was like for a muggle in an empire run by blood mages.  He was willing to do a lot of terrible things to ensure that never happened to the south.

 

One of the characteristics I 'liked' about Lambert was that he was a Lawful character. Not Lawful-Good, but when he did things, it was for a reason, and with a justification. Not mustache twirling 'I delight in your suffering and ignore the rules when it suits me,' but far more 'you broke the rules, I'm the enforcer.' Even his mutiny from the Chantry had a legal basis and was in response to a clear violations by the Chantry (the Nevarran accords, and the Divine's complicity in helping the mages escape by murdering Templars).

 

It's the sort of Lawful-Evil, if you want to call it that, that I wish games and media would do more of. Yes, Lambert absolutely heightened tensions. And yes, he was looking for the justifications he needed to do what he wanted- Cole's insight helps there. But the thing was, he still acted based off of justification- which certainly allows us to call the laws he used into question, but it's a different sort of abuse then Meredith 'I am the Law' of Kirkwall.

 

I think it provided a good contrast to Fiona in the story, and is part of the tragedy of how the Rebellion broke out. Even though he wanted a crackdown, Lambert was working within the system- and the keeper of the system, the Chantry, was attempting to change the rules in a way that Lambert most likely would have (grudgingly) accepted. Had agitators not broken rules, Lambert wouldn't have had the legal justification he needed to act, and so the rules themselves could have been changed for the better.

[themikefest]

If I was to judge Fiona, I would remove her from her role as Grand Enchanter and make her wear a jester costume. Eventually she will be joined by the Billy Idol lookalike, Florianne, who I also have wear a jester costume

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm glad you laughed because i was not able to,since i didn't even understood that mind boggling pseudo philosophical supper of the

"concept x is not tangible but it exist" when the discussion was on about delegation of legal authorities.

 

The joke was the demonstration of real-life analogues that countered your point, one very real (crimes against Humanity, which is totally a Real Thing even though 'humanity' is not a 'legal authority') and one flippant (crimes against common decency, which actually used to be a sort of crime for public morality edicts), and finished with a pun based on your ignorance.

 

Yes, I realize the joke is less funny once explained, but then it was at your expense.

[Dean_the_Young]

Unless the person I was judging served Corypheus (like Alexius) or acted acted specifically against the Inquisition (like that Avvar who flung a goat at Skyhold) I typically sent them to some other governing body to judge.  Like the Wardens or Ferelden.

 

WTF gives the Inquisition the authority to judge these people?

 

The Inquisition gives the Inquisition the authority. Which was rather the point- that in a world where the authorities weren't exercising authority or keeping order, the Inquisition would do it instead.

 

Justinia's mandate for the creation is a cover, but the reality is that the Inquisition has the authority because people accept what it does because it does it and can get away with it because the people and nobility broadly support it.

 

(Yes, the convolution is deliberate. It's also accurate.)

 

It's a feature, not a bug- and part of why I think Trespasser generally works in how the Inquisition is either yoked or disbanded. The Inquisition could get away with it when authorities didn't have their act together. Once the world is saved, the authorities want their authority back.

[Cute Nug]

Unless the person I was judging served Corypheus (like Alexius) or acted acted specifically against the Inquisition (like that Avvar who flung a goat at Skyhold) I typically sent them to some other governing body to judge.  Like the Wardens or Ferelden.

 

WTF gives the Inquisition the authority to judge these people?

 

Because they are the Inquisition just less stabby then The First Inquisition. Weapons and uniforms is always enough authority to judge others.

 

"... determined to reestablish order because no one else would do what was necessary"

"Was theirs a reign of terror? Perhaps. Evidence suggests they were as vigilant in their protection of mages as they were of regular people. When they intervened, they convened an ad hoc trial to determine the guilty party. This even application of justice led to their poor reputation; the Seekers came down against every group at one time or another, their "Inquisition" gaining notoriety for being on no one's side but their own."

 

Plus Quizzy is still bitter that they were locked up and threatened with execution simply for being the only one to survive ground zero at the conclave. Might has well judge others lest you be judged ... again.

[German Soldier]

The Inquisition has been imbued with the authority to bring about peace and carry out judgement by consent of the Divine and other nations who differ to it

 

 

The inquisition did not opened any session of judgment about Fiona thus she wasn't accused of anything.

[Akiza]

The joke was the demonstration of real-life analogues that countered your point, one very real (crimes against Humanity, which is totally a Real Thing even though 'humanity' is not a 'legal authority') and one flippant (crimes against common decency, which actually used to be a sort of crime for public morality edicts), and finished with a pun based on your ignorance.

Yes, I realize the joke is less funny once explained, but then it was at your expense.

You didn't countered my point you just made a false parallelism then pretend that it made sense.

-What "crimes against humanity" has to do with FIona in the first place?
-Does even such concept thing exist in Thedas? The people of Thedas isn't The people of the Earth in the 21st century.
-What kind of authority you are to represent all the people of the continent and accuse Fiona for them?

In short you made a false equivalence then pretended that i was the one on the wrong side thus the whole joke it is at your expense.

[Iakus]

The Inquisition gives the Inquisition the authority. Which was rather the point- that in a world where the authorities weren't exercising authority or keeping order, the Inquisition would do it instead.

 

Justinia's mandate for the creation is a cover, but the reality is that the Inquisition has the authority because people accept what it does because it does it and can get away with it because the people and nobility broadly support it.

 

(Yes, the convolution is deliberate. It's also accurate.)

 

It's a feature, not a bug- and part of why I think Trespasser generally works in how the Inquisition is either yoked or disbanded. The Inquisition could get away with it when authorities didn't have their act together. Once the world is saved, the authorities want their authority back.

Personally, I prefer my costumed vigilantes stop at leaving their victims dangling unconscious from a street lamp with a note to the authorities signed with an animal motif...

[straykat]

If I was to judge Fiona, I would remove her from her role as Grand Enchanter and make her wear a jester costume. Eventually she will be joined by the Billy Idol lookalike, Florianne, who I also have wear a jester costume

 

Hey, don't insult Billy Idol like that.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just to play devil's advocate, Lambert was from Tevinter, and saw firsthand what life was like for a muggle in an empire run by blood mages.  He was willing to do a lot of terrible things to ensure that never happened to the south.

Actually that was retconned out. He's from Orlais and was an envoy to Tevinter

[Vit246]

You didn't countered my point you just made a false parallelism then pretend that it made sense.

-What "crimes against humanity" has to do with FIona in the first place?
-Does even such concept thing exist in Thedas? The people of Thedas isn't The people of the Earth in the 21st century.
-What kind of authority you are to represent all the people of the continent and accuse Fiona for them?

In short you made a false equivalence then pretended that i was the one on the wrong side thus the whole joke it is at your expense.

I have found a kindred spirit.

I can understand the anger towards Fiona but I cannot stand the high-horse hind-sighted indignation and the throwing of ridiculous phrases like "Crimes against the People of Thedas".

This is a projection of a Western Modernist mentality onto a medieval setting. It does not belong there.

[sniper_arrow]

You didn't countered my point you just made a false parallelism then pretend that it made sense.

-What "crimes against humanity" has to do with FIona in the first place?
-Does even such concept thing exist in Thedas? The people of Thedas isn't The people of the Earth in the 21st century.
-What kind of authority you are to represent all the people of the continent and accuse Fiona for them?

In short you made a false equivalence then pretended that i was the one on the wrong side thus the whole joke it is at your expense.

 

For the first one, since the rebellion started, a lot of people lost their lives due to the mage-templar war. Some were even caught in the middle of the crossfire. Fiona wanted to rebel against the Chantry, but as far as the domino effect goes, it led directly to the templars against them. Fiona may not have thought of the actual consequences of her actions and believed the rebellion will be as easy as 1-2-3.

 

For the second one, despite the medieval settings, there were some modern aspects on the series that affected the story and the characters. Think about it, would Maevaris, for example, would walk around freely in Tevinter if Bioware really wanted to capture what it's really like to live in the medieval ages? Would Cassandra even be allowed to join the Seekers? Heck, would Fiona even be allowed to become Grand Enchanter due to her being an elf and a woman?

 

Lastly, the Inquisition is seen as an authority in helping out stopping the war, protect the innocent, and close the breach. Sure it was seen as a rebel/independent group after breaking away from the Chantry, but its influence due to the actions of the Herald have increased to the point that the Orlesian nobles were willing to travel to Ferelden to demand the templars for help. 

[vbibbi]

Unless the person I was judging served Corypheus (like Alexius) or acted acted specifically against the Inquisition (like that Avvar who flung a goat at Skyhold) I typically sent them to some other governing body to judge.  Like the Wardens or Ferelden.

 

WTF gives the Inquisition the authority to judge these people?

 

I would agree and some of the judgment recipients seemed strange to be given to the Inquisitor to judge. But the in game explanation is that the local government gave the prisoners over to the Inquisition, so it's fair game.

 

Particularly, why in the world would Celene or Gaspard give a still-living Florianne over to the Inquisition? They would not let such a valuable tool out of their power, plus Florianne could potentially reveal state secrets to the Inquisition and weaken an already-weakened Orlais' political authority.

 

But yeah, for the other judgments, I think it's more a case that the government doesn't have time to deal with the prisoners and they're not too important in the grand scheme of things (Crestwood mayor, Sahrnia leader) and the government is willing to look like they're cooperating with this unknown new organization sitting on its borders.

[straykat]

Actually that was retconned out. He's from Orlais and was an envoy to Tevinter

 

Weird.. good to know though.

 

Makes me dislike him more then. That he was friends and very acquainted with the Black Divine and Tevinter made him somewhat sympathetic.

[Xerrai]

She didn't merely lose the Templars. They and/or Lambert were completely against anything on the matter of Tranquility. With Wynne's help, it was possible that maybe it could be merely temporary. But the fact that it could be cured was bad enough for them. They just showed their true colors in wanting to be utter control freaks.. with no compromise. They might as well be Qunari.

 

The mages also sucked. Instead of meeting to discuss Wynne's research, they decide to use their conclave as an excuse to unite a rebellion.

 

edit: I also think Lambert was just protecting the Seekers. Willing to throw everyone under the bus - mages, Divine, and duped Templars - just so they keep their secrets and mystique.

Well to be fair, if the cure to Tranquility (or even just further research) became a thing, it has the potential to change just about everything in terms of how mages can be treated/viewed. Same goes for the Seekers themselves.

The Seekers (by attracting a Spirit of Faith) get things like an ability to manipulate lyrium and resistance to possession and mind control. While Pharamond proved that reversing tranquility does not guarantee that it can remove the threat of possession, it is unknown if it is possible to gain other yet unheard of abilities depending on the type of spirit summoned. But if even a small percentage gets an ability anything even remotely related to Seeker abilities....well....it changes everything.

[straykat]

Well to be fair, if the cure to Tranquility (or even just further research) became a thing, it has the potential to change just about everything in terms of how mages can be treated/viewed. Same goes for the Seekers themselves.

The Seekers (by attracting a Spirit of Faith) get things like an ability to manipulate lyrium and resistance to possession and mind control. While Pharamond proved that reversing tranquility does not guarantee that it can remove the threat of possession, it is unknown if it is possible to gain other yet unheard of abilities depending on the type of spirit summoned. But if even a small percentage gets an ability anything even remotely related to Seeker abilities....well....it changes everything.

 

I know it would.. and I don't necessarily want those abilities to be commonplace. But if they are going to be known, I'd rather everyone know what they're dealing with and where it comes from: Spirits. Then they can decide what they want to do with it. I don't support the lies and control the Seekers use, where they make everyone believe it comes from "God". And in turn, make everyone equate them with God themselves.

 

If the Chantry has any place in the world, then I'd rather it be a simple matter of faith. No smoke and mirrors, no "signs", no Secret Orders and "Blessed Warriors".. and no methods of control over people. Just faith. Just religion. Anyone who needs more than that for their religion is probably up to no good.

 

If people still think they need to use tranquility or spirits in dealing with mages, so be it. But it won't have the same aura of mystique around it and it won't be attached to the "Maker". It'll just be a tool. Although, I'd prefer none of it personally. Maybe temporary Tranquility could work. I don't know. Like a suspension period in the most drastic cases.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think it's more that a cure for tranquility pretty much neutered one of the Templars main ways of surpressing mages

[straykat]

I think it's more that a cure for tranquility pretty much neutered one of the Templars main ways of surpressing mages

 

Well they do it in Tevinter too, where Temps are far more powerless.