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#76
Ieldra

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I did play the templar quest only once, and probably won't do it again. The mission itself isn't bad, but I felt guilty about abandoning Fiona and all the innocent people in Redcliff to their fate while at the same time I can't say the same about the templars. As one of the chantry sisters put it: "We wanted the templars to treat mages more fairly and they rebelled for it." I simply can't feel sorry for them and that's the main difference for me.

In addition, I get more Leliana and Dorian in IHW.

Sure, I prefer to play the mage's path, too, for a variety of reasons, but this thread wasn't about that, but about a more neutral look at the storytelling quality of either path. And while I think "In Hushed Whispers" is better than "Champions of the Just", the whole of DAI's story is better if you take the templar path.

 

Not that this will make me choose that path more often. I hate templars and what they represent. It's always hard doing Champions of the Just just because I like what comes after better, and because of Cole and Calpernia.


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#77
sim-ran

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My thoughts exactly leldra

#78
Bayonet Hipshot

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Sure, I prefer to play the mage's path, too, for a variety of reasons, but this thread wasn't about that, but about a more neutral look at the storytelling quality of either path. And while I think "In Hushed Whispers" is better than "Champions of the Just", the whole of DAI's story is better if you take the templar path.

 

Not that this will make me choose that path more often. I hate templars and what they represent. It's always hard doing Champions of the Just just because I like what comes after better, and because of Cole.

 

& It just so happens that I have to run out of likes to give....Sigh...

 

Templar Conscription is like eating greens or taking a bitter pill. Hard at first, gets a lot better later.


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#79
Gileadan

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Eh. I allied with the templars. My Inquisitor is a templar. I got the "golden age" ending in the vanilla game, so I will quietly assume that this was the best for the largest amount of people. Mission accomplished.

#80
Ieldra

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& It just so happens that I have to run out of likes to give....Sigh...

 

Templar Conscription is like eating greens or taking a bitter pill. Hard at first, gets a lot better later.

I see you have the same appreciation of greens that I do :lol: It's a cruel twist of nature, isn't it?



#81
Bayonet Hipshot

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I see you have the same appreciation of greens that I do :lol: It's a cruel twist of nature, isn't it?

 

I like some greens such as Okra, Onions, Chilies, Tomatoes, Mushrooms, Cauliflowers, Kale, Capsicum and Chinese Kale. Although to be fair, most of the greens I listed are not really green in color. I hate lettuce though and it was really annoying to find that most Americans eat that instead of other greens when I stayed there for 4 years.



#82
sniper_arrow

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And now I think of it, what is supposed to become of Samson/Calpernia if you choose the mage/templar route? It's like they don't exist! Neither were involved in the mage/templar quests, so they wouldn't have been killed in the proceedings, and they'd still have a use after, as Corypheus has a sizable number of mages and red templars regardless.

 

Samson is killed by Corypheus if you choose the Templars for his failure to recruit the Templars. I don't know what happened with Calpernia if you choose the mage route.



#83
JadeDragon

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Samson is killed by Corypheus if you choose the Templars for his failure to recruit the Templars. I don't know what happened with Calpernia if you choose the mage route.

I cant speak for Samson but i believe there is a venatori note going out to Calpernia if you pick the mage route so at the very least she survives and still leads the Venatori. Which always kind of bothered me because both factions are present so both faction leaders at the least should be present just one out ranking the other. Its not like its Samson or Calpernia fault if you recruit the respective path, Erimond and Carroll still each have there respective ranks so that always confused me.



#84
Yumakooma

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I just roleplay my character and the choice becomes their own, not mine. Give them background, opinions, prejudices (not meaning make them racist or a hater of someone/something, prejudice doesn't have to be extreme). Then you can justify anything a whole lot easier, and play both ways.

 

Sometimes when you roleplay, the events and conversations you have might change your characters mind if they are not firmly on the side of templars or mages. Sometimes they might be blindly loyal to helping one side, no matter what.

 

Its okay to ENJOY the mage story or templar story more than the other, but that makes neither better than the other. Just means you like it better and thats cool. I prefer the templar quest but I do not think it is a better or worse choice from a roleplaying standpoint and to me, metagaming to compare both sides ruins the fun of roleplaying games and building characters.

 

So overall it really depends what type of player you are. If you want to try and make the best world state and are prepared to read online, metagame, and then use that information to roleplay thats cool, you'll have the worldstate almost exactly how you want. However there are other players like myself who prefer to roleplay without using outside information or popular opinions such as the better faction leader to help make the choices, and just make characters with opinions/beliefs of varying strength. That pre-defined set of opinions and beliefs then craft the decisions made in the game. So it really depends what kind of roleplay you are engaging in, as to what is the better choice... that is my conclusion.


Modifié par Yumakooma, 08 avril 2016 - 12:36 .

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#85
Raizen10e

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Counter argument for the mages.

The Setup: Common knowledge of the time is that Mages are at war with Templars, who are rebelling for freedom. The Templars have openly defied the Chantry and decided to meet the mages in open war, thus causing all sorts of collateral damage. So from the outset, unless your character is VERY pro chantry or anti-mage, personal bias shifts to be in favor of the mages before things have even started. 

 

The Inquisition's first goal is to seal the breach, and thus the conversation of who to side with is first presented. Mages who understand the veil, fade, and magic. Or the Templars who are adept at anti-magic. You know the mark is magic and that it has the power to close rifts, it just needs more power. Who is going to provide more magical power? The real risk, which is brought up, is who will be willing to even listen to you. So here we see again, the bias is for the mages, as you need the mark to have more power. SO at the very least they appear as a viable option. Cullen makes it sound like the Templars would be more reasonable and easier to approach... but when it comes time to meet them, they're dismissive and claim you're unworthy. Fiona by contrast offers you a friendly invite. 

So to recap to this point. You know mages are fighting for freedom, your mark needs more power, the Templars have told you to ****** off, and The mages invited you to parlay. (The freedom part is really only important to those characters who view it as a reasonable/righteous cause worth standing behind). Upon arriving in Redcliffe, even before the gate is open you realize there's something strange going on with the rifts. After sitting down to parley, you quickly realize there's something fishy about your invitation (since she claims she never gave it) and worse yet, a Tevinter Magister has claimed ownership of the rebel mages. He then explains how he plans to have them work in servitude, and assist in Tevinter's war effort, and how he has essentially claimed the Castle for himself. When you later meet with Dorian, he informs you not just that Alexius is a Tevinter supremacist who is very interested in your mark (implying he knows more about it), but that he has used time altering magic that helped him claim the rebel mages. To top it all off, on your way out, nearly every mage practically begs you to help them, and save them from the Tevinter Magister. 

So when the decision time comes; Do you leave the Tevinter Magister? The who has a small army of mages, knows about your mark, can alter time, and threatens the very citizens you just spent all that time protecting. (partly as a means to earn a name for yourself as being an inquisition who protects the people where people in positions of power have failed). He would also be a stone throw away from your current HQ Do you want a known enemy that close? While you could say this is really a matter for the Nobility to handle, that's not entirely true. You sent a forward party out into the hinterlands, you were saving and helping the general populace. The reigning power failed to protect his citizens, and your fledgling Inquisition is starting out in a bad position with the Chantry branding you a heretic. Your Inquisition NEEDS this publicity, and you've already made your presence known to those people, if you fail them now your inquisition is off to a really bad start. So within the context of the game world, it's hard NOT to side with the mages, most of the reasons you'd choose to side with the Templars is based on things that happen afterward, where you can look back and claim it made a better story or a more compelling villain.

OOC reasons; (to touch on the cameo factor) Yeah Samson got his start in DA2, which as much as I enjoy the slave turned leader who might be brainwashed, we got to see Samson at his lowest, a bum in the streets asking for dwarf dust. There's a history the player has with him but there's also one with Cullen, as he remembers Samson. The story of him helping that Tranquil who was willing to die rather than betray Samson was heartbreaking and humanizes him. He's well aware that what he's doing is morally wrong, but he was already at rock bottom, and wanted to feel powerful and have some meaning in his life again. It's not redemptive, so much as it is "die with dignity" which is a reason (to me) explains why/how he would be willing to go thru with so much destruction and be willing to be the vessel knowing full well he wouldn't survive the whole ordeal.

Going forward in time also adds to the whole "This **** is weird" book. It's one of those miracles that would be exaggerated when people talk about the inquisitor, except it actually happened. It adds to the whole "chosen by Andraste" (if that's the path you're going with). It's also a bit of mystery, you don't really get told Cory's plan... you ask about what's happened and people inform you of things like a demon army and such. You're left to piece it all together as the game progresses on, like when you see the wardens summoning demons. 

Mostly, for me at least, context is a huge thing for my characters, and the context that is set up in Inquisition has me choosing the mages every time. 

    


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#86
mrs_anomaly

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I agree with you OP about most of your points even though traditionally I'd always go the mage route. Calpernia is a superior character and experience compared to Sampson. I found her scenes to be extremely satisfying and I was extremely happy with the outcome of our conversation with her at the Temple. 

 

There are actually decent rationales for a mage to chose the Templar path anyway if you want to head canon it such as "my mage is familiar with the circle and therefore prefers to have Templars be a stabilizing force against rogue mages" etc. Or your PC could hold the belief that templars might be uniquely capable of helping with the breach and other problems. 

 

My biggest issue with the two separate pathways however is that we rarely get to see to see a "reasonable" moderate and proper thinking mage in the DA universe. We see them but all of the main characters that figure largely in the plot are all FUBAR when it comes to making choices up to and including Fiona. What Fiona does is stupid and unbelievable and given her character in the books I find it hard to believe she would ever do those things. 

 

Plus I the way Cole is introduced the Templar route is FAR better than the way he just pops up if you do the Mage line and everything overall just seems to make more sense. 

 

And I wish both of them had the same quality but because of the difference in qualities I will choose the Templars more often than not. 


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#87
JadeDragon

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I think another point for Templars is the entire setup of the Arbor Wilds quest. The only way Cory would use his full force both Red Templars and Venatori is if you said with the Templars. And the setup with that favors the Templar route if you notice how Cory has been using his forces through out the game. The Venatori throughout the entire game have been used mostly to search ruins and for artifacts such as Western Approach, Hissing Waste, Emerald Graves and Forbidden Oasis. The Red Templars mainly have been trying to increase there numbers and red lyrium supply places like Emprise du Lion , Storm Coast and Emerald Graves show this while they also provided protection for the Venatori in the Hissing Waste. So when it comes to the Arbor Wilds it would make sense for Cory to stick to this setup sending the Venatori who are more experienced at searching for artifacts to explore the Temple of Mythal since they have been looking for elven stuff the whole game and let the Red Templars be the main ground forces to slow down the Inquisition a role they are better suited for then the Venatori.


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#88
thesuperdarkone2

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I think another point for Templars is the entire setup of the Arbor Wilds quest. The only way Cory would use his full force both Red Templars and Venatori is if you said with the Templars. And the setup with that favors the Templar route if you notice how Cory has been using his forces through out the game. The Venatori throughout the entire game have been used mostly to search ruins and for artifacts such as Western Approach, Hissing Waste, Emerald Graves and Forbidden Oasis. The Red Templars mainly have been trying to increase there numbers and red lyrium supply places like Emprise du Lion , Storm Coast and Emerald Graves show this while they also provided protection for the Venatori in the Hissing Waste. So when it comes to the Arbor Wilds it would make sense for Cory to stick to this setup sending the Venatori who are more experienced at searching for artifacts to explore the Temple of Mythal since they have been looking for elven stuff the whole game and let the Red Templars be the main ground forces to slow down the Inquisition a role they are better suited for then the Venatori.


Actually it's a point against the Templars since how does Cory have an army of red Templar capable of going up against the orlesian army if you both killed a lot of red Templars at Therinfal and prevented them from bolstering their ranks with more Templars.

#89
JadeDragon

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Actually it's a point against the Templars since how does Cory have an army of red Templar capable of going up against the orlesian army if you both killed a lot of red Templars at Therinfal and prevented them from bolstering their ranks with more Templars.

That oversight is actually a problem for both sides. We basically get one faction while Cory gets both factions no matter what. And considering there is circle towers all over thedas it would be safe to assume the rebel mages and templars that are in Cory ranks are from other circles. There is at least one account of a Templar from kirkwall who followed Samson and we also have Carroll from Fereldan Circle who is not present at Therinfal so either a large portion of the order was not present at Therinfal which is understandable or Samson already collected enough Templars from other circles before hand and those at Therinfal were the few that was left. Not that many red templars get killed at Therinfal if you consider how large the order is. Mining and producing red lyrium would at least give cory enough time to make more red templars considering all you need is a warrior and red lyrium. Also the Red Templars are not enough to go against the Orlesian Army thats why we won, Cory counted on his demon army to take out Orlais. Arbor Wilds was a desperate attempt which is why after the red templars are even more scattered and if it came down to it I would use Red Templars an actual army at least against Orlais-Inquisition alliance on the field vs Venatori.


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#90
CoM Solaufein

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Since My Inky is a mage, well she sides with mages most of the time. This current game I enslaved the Templars. Pay backs are a ******.



#91
Fiskrens

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The only way I can justify going the templar route story-wise is by role-playing that the restriction on being forced to choose one of the paths doesn't exist; it is after all a construction within the game that your character can't be aware of. Therefore they sometimes are more pro-templar, and intrigued by the behavior in Val Royeaux they go to Therinfal Redoubt first, thinking they can "deal with Redcliffe later". Only afterwards it becomes clear for them that the path is set.

I know the game persistently tries to tell the player that a choice must be made, but my Inky can choose to ignore that ;).

#92
straykat

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It's nice they removed the character amulets. That was my main reason for trying Temp when the game was released.



#93
In Exile

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That oversight is actually a problem for both sides. We basically get one faction while Cory gets both factions no matter what. And considering there is circle towers all over thedas it would be safe to assume the rebel mages and templars that are in Cory ranks are from other circles. There is at least one account of a Templar from kirkwall who followed Samson and we also have Carroll from Fereldan Circle who is not present at Therinfal so either a large portion of the order was not present at Therinfal which is understandable or Samson already collected enough Templars from other circles before hand and those at Therinfal were the few that was left. Not that many red templars get killed at Therinfal if you consider how large the order is. Mining and producing red lyrium would at least give cory enough time to make more red templars considering all you need is a warrior and red lyrium. Also the Red Templars are not enough to go against the Orlesian Army thats why we won, Cory counted on his demon army to take out Orlais. Arbor Wilds was a desperate attempt which is why after the red templars are even more scattered and if it came down to it I would use Red Templars an actual army at least against Orlais-Inquisition alliance on the field vs Venatori.


No, it's not quite equal. The Venatori are a separate Tevinter cult. It makes sense for them to exist independent of the mages. The red templars are a bit weird in that it's not clear how many of them we fail to save. But of course that just illustrates how originally Bioware clearly didn't intend to have these quests be mutually exclusive.
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#94
Dai Grepher

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The templars were tricked and had taken an oath. The mages had freedom to choose, and knew full well that the Tevinter magister wanted to put them into slavery.

The templars needed saving, the mages could have saved themselves by walking away from Alexius and Fiona.
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#95
In Exile

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The templars were tricked and had taken an oath. The mages had freedom to choose, and knew full well that the Tevinter magister wanted to put them into slavery.

The templars needed saving, the mages could have saved themselves by walking away from Alexius and Fiona.

 

Taking an oath to obey your superiors doesn't somehow obviate responsibility - it just means you've elected to become responsible for another's choices without ever having input in them. Practically, any individual mage had as much of a choice as an individual templar: desert, and face serious and personal consequences, or go along with the group.

The templars just signed away their right to dissent. That's not lamentable. 


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#96
straykat

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They're both pretty pathetic.

 

edit: I hate to sound like I'm neutral though. I'm not above it. I'm more on the mage's side, but still.....


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#97
maia0407

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I like some greens such as Okra, Onions, Chilies, Tomatoes, Mushrooms, Cauliflowers, Kale, Capsicum and Chinese Kale. Although to be fair, most of the greens I listed are not really green in color. I hate lettuce though and it was really annoying to find that most Americans eat that instead of other greens when I stayed there for 4 years.


Warning, I'm going to be pedantic. Kale and Chinese Kale are the only two greens on your list; with the exceptions of tomatoes and mushrooms, the rest of your list are various varieties of vegetables. I agree about not liking typical salad greens served in the states. I didn't really appreciate leafy greens until I moved overseas and have access to tastier produce. Can't get enough veggies now. In fact, I'm in the process of transistioning to a vegan lifestyle.

On topic, I much prefer the Mage route. The characters in the Templar path didn't interest me and I found the envy demon just bizarre.

#98
straykat

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Warning, I'm going to be pedantic. Kale and Chinese Kale are the only two greens on your list; with the exceptions of tomatoes and mushrooms, the rest of your list are various varieties of vegetables. I agree about not liking typical salad greens served in the states. I didn't really appreciate leafy greens until I moved overseas and have access to tastier produce. Can't get enough veggies now. In fact, I'm in the process of transistioning to a vegan lifestyle.

On topic, I much prefer the Mage route. The characters in the Templar path didn't interest me and I found the envy demon just bizarre.

 

I like the envy demon at least. I think it would hit straight home at the kind of player who sides with temps. More than likely, someone who takes advantage of or at least relishes the Herald thing. The Envy demon does as well. They're just more honest about it.



#99
maia0407

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To be fair, I played the Templar mission when I was already played out for the day and sleepy. That probably colored my perception of the mission!
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#100
Dai Grepher

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Taking an oath to obey your superiors doesn't somehow obviate responsibility - it just means you've elected to become responsible for another's choices without ever having input in them. Practically, any individual mage had as much of a choice as an individual templar: desert, and face serious and personal consequences, or go along with the group.
The templars just signed away their right to dissent. That's not lamentable.


Not claiming the oath pardons them of responsibility, being tricked pardons them from that. The oath is just an obstacle that hinders them from reacting to the hidden danger.

The mages had no such obstacle, and the danger was readily apparent. Slavery. Many wanted to leave. They should have, especially if the Inquisition came to Redcliffe to offer them safety.
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