Not claiming the oath pardon's them of responsibility, being tricked pardons them from that. The oath is just an obstacle that hinders them from reacting to the hidden danger.
The mages had no such obstacle, and the danger was readily apparent. Slavery. Many wanted to leave. They should have, especially if the Inquisition came to Redcliffe to offer them safety.
I have to agree. That mage you meet at the HoF statue, for example.. The guy's such a wuss. I assume they're all this way?
They're both pretty pathetic.
edit: I hate to sound like I'm neutral though. I'm not above it. I'm more on the mage's side, but still.....
I admit I wish the game did allow us to ally/conscript both parties. Win-win for everyone.
I have to agree. That mage you meet at the HoF statue, for example.. The guy's such a wuss. I assume they're all this way?
Most. Not all. Dorian confirms that most were killed or fled. Only some pledged their loyalty to the Venatori. Lenea was one such mage, regardless of which path you take.
Lenea.. is that the one from Trev's own circle, who acts smug about the whole deal?
Either way the whole thing is just sad. I expected better from the whole story after Asunder. For both sides.
Not claiming the oath pardons them of responsibility, being tricked pardons them from that. The oath is just an obstacle that hinders them from reacting to the hidden danger.
The mages had no such obstacle, and the danger was readily apparent. Slavery. Many wanted to leave. They should have, especially if the Inquisition came to Redcliffe to offer them safety.
They're not tricked. It's part of their duties to, essentially, ingest whatever lyrium concoction is given to them by their superiors. Their superiors, who already rebelled against the Chantry and betrayed their current governing organization, simply take their formal rebellion in another direction (and align with Corypheus). They already agreed to that when they joined the templars in their treason/mutiny.
The mages didn't leave because they were terrified of the templars - that was part of the trick pulled off by Alexius; making them think the Templars had basically sieged Redcliffe. And the Inquisition never came to Redcliffe - the Inquisitor came. That's different.
Not to say that the mages couldn't leave - they could run out of Redcliffe to the wilderness. Much like how the templars - such as Barras - could dessert after they saw the Lord Seeker punch a Chantry sister in the face and declare the Templars sovereign and separate.
Lenea.. is that the one from Trev's own circle, who acts smug about the whole deal?
Linnea, and you're correct. She's the same person who served tea to Calpernia.
Lenea.. is that the one from Trev's own circle, who acts smug about the whole deal?
Either way the whole thing is just sad. I expected better from the whole story after Asunder. For both sides.
They're not tricked. It's part of their duties to, essentially, ingest whatever lyrium concoction is given to them by their superiors.
Their superiors, who already rebelled against the Chantry and betrayed their current governing organization,
simply take their formal rebellion in another direction (and align with Corypheus). They already agreed to that when they joined the templars in their treason/mutiny.
The mages didn't leave because they were terrified of the templars - that was part of the trick pulled off by Alexius; making them think the Templars had basically sieged Redcliffe. And the Inquisition never came to Redcliffe - the Inquisitor came. That's different.
Not to say that the mages couldn't leave - they could run out of Redcliffe to the wilderness.
Much like how the templars - such as Barras - could dessert after they saw the Lord Seeker punch a Chantry sister in the face
and declare the Templars sovereign and separate.
Yes, the mage rebellion was never smart to begin with, but it was disappointing to see them just agree to actual slavery after obtaining their freedom. It just shows how poorly planned it was. I think my Hero of Ferelden even called it insane when Wynne mentioned it in Awakening.
I'd rather blame it on how poorly planned their writing is.
Or rather, how easily they abandoned their previous (and good) writing and tried to reinvent themselves here, with a new plot. It's totally unnecessary. There was more potential in a detailed mage/temp war. Not this idiotic stillbirth of a war.
But yeah, I remember her on my mage too. It's one of the things I liked about the mage. There were a few things in the game that helped me personalize their story (I ended up settling on a rogue though).
And some questioned the red lyrium. The superior officers ingested it first to "prove" it was harmless. They were tricked.
No. If they refused to consume it, they would be guilty of dereliction of duty. You can't have it both ways: either they made a willing choice to ingest strange lyrium in which case they are each individually personally responsible for it, or they were following orders in which case they were responsible for it in virtue of their complete surrender of their individual autonomy.
Well, technically the templars are not part of the Chantry. The original Inquisition joined the Chantry and split into Seekers and Templars. Lucius, a seeker, encouraged the Templar Order to leave the Chantry because it was failing in its duty to regulate the mages. So from their perspective, they were justified.
The position is arble-garble. The Templars didn't exist independent of the Chantry. The Inquisition existed, and entered into an Accord with the Chantry. The Inquisition was immediately dissolved and eradicated as an organization and absorbed into the Chantry. Through millenia, the newly formed organization went through a series of changes, including becoming jailers and the military arm of the Chantry.
This would be something other than a laughable argument if the actual former members of the Inquisition broke off from the Chantry in the years immediately following their dissolution. It doesn't matter what gibberish justification the templars think they can point to - by the events of Asunder, they were a formal part of the Chantry and their actions are treason and/or mutiny, depending on how technical you want to get about it.
That was Denam who punched her in the back of the head. Huge difference.
There's no difference.
He could have, but like I said, his oath was an obstacle. What good is he without his word? Fortunately he didn't desert, because he was the one who sent word to Cullen and provided the opportunity for the Inquisition to save the day.
Yeah, blindly following orders. Not a defence.
No. Deciding to separate from the Chantry to go fulfill their purpose of protecting the population from dangerous magic is not the same as joining Corypheus. The templars thought they were doing right, but they were tricked.
The declaration that the population could eat **** while the Templars chill somewhere else wasn't really discreet. By that point, the pretense of protecting the common people from magic was undeniably bunk.
I admit I wish the game did allow us to ally/conscript both parties. Win-win for everyone.
The default in DA since DA2 is generally for it to end badly for most.
I feel it's a better end to the missed mage/templar war to conscript one side to help save part of the other side from Corybits. Then you have elements of rebel mages and rebel templars working together in the Inquisition to face their mutual enemy the darkspawn magister threat whose very existence challenges their view of the world. Awesome rich conversation options in Skyhold with this. A Second Sin WTF proto-darkspawn magister the Grey Spawn hid is walking around Thedas!
Instead only Corybits wins the mage/templar war (some gloating at mage/templar stupidity would have made Cory better and tossing you Fiona's severed head would be a better end then her doing an unexplained Orsino and being evil Venatori IMO). The best we get is save the suddenly rebel-less victim mages by jumping into a trap because we are an unkillable hero with plot armor while the templars become red lyrium monsters or you can save some of the templars while the rebel mages are killed unless they become evil Ventori because mages in DA when threatened will usually go evil so we have something to kill ... meh.
DAI needed better post Haven content showing the loss of the rebel templars turned into monsters or the rebel mages murdered and evil Ventori to appreciate the failure of the mage/templar war with only Corybits winning. His temporary victory as the only winner of the mage/templar is lame like him because it is only implied and not shown well.
Would be a nice reveal if Corybits gave Anders the recipe to blow up the Chantry.
It's an interesting choice with failure that Bioware didn't have enough time and resources to completely bring home. Best you can do is save at least part of one side of the mage/templar war. I understand those who like that the mage path let's you save a larger percentage of that group. I did both paths in DAI. Personnal preference of the two win/lose paths is I preferred in-game presentation of the Templars a little more but it would depend on the character I play. Templars have a little better written glimmer of redemption of the sadness that is the mage/templar war ending.
Templars have a little better written glimmer of redemption of the sadness that is the mage/templar war ending.
Which is..?
The declaration that the population could eat **** while the Templars chill somewhere else wasn't really discreet. By that point, the pretense of protecting the common people from magic was undeniably bunk.
That the population of Thedas could eat shards seems to be their expectation so perhaps they aren't upset at the Templars. They just don't expect better of anyone.
The world is ending and the Orlesion royalty are having a civil war. They won't stop until the Inquisitor has time to attend their party. While their population is being killed by demons they decide the best way to decide what useless twit will rule is to have a party. There is no better way to say the population can go eat shards.
Grey Spawn and Ferelden also seem useless. Seems expected that the Templars would decide the same thing as the rest of the jerks in Thedas.
Only the Inquisition is stupid enough to care about the world ending skyhole pouring out demons. But why are they and the Orlesion nobles so wimpy when go see the templars. It was a kind of a templars do your damn job moment.
That the population of Thedas could eat shards seems to be their expectation so perhaps they aren't upset at the Templars. They just don't expect better of anyone.
The world is ending and the Orlesion royalty are having a civil war. They won't stop until the Inquisitor has time to attend their party. While their population is being killed by demons they decide the best way to decide what useless twit will rule is to have a party. There is no better way to say the population can go eat shards.
Grey Spawn and Ferelden also seem useless. Seems expected that the Templars would decide the same thing as the rest of the jerks in Thedas.
Only the Inquisition is stupid enough to care about the world ending skyhole pouring out demons. But why are they and the Orlesion nobles so wimpy when go see the templars. It was a kind of a templars do your damn job moment.
You're making me hate not just the mage/temp sides now, but everyone. 
They had make everyone so stupid and hopeless, just to write this game.
I'd rather blame it on how poorly planned their writing is.
Or rather, how easily they abandoned their previous (and good) writing and tried to reinvent themselves here, with a new plot. It's totally unnecessary. There was more potential in a detailed mage/temp war. Not this idiotic stillbirth of a war.
But yeah, I remember her on my mage too. It's one of the things I liked about the mage. There were a few things in the game that helped me personalize their story (I ended up settling on a rogue though).
No. If they refused to consume it, they would be guilty of dereliction of duty.
You can't have it both ways: either they made a willing choice to ingest strange lyrium in which case they are each individually personally responsible for it, or they were following orders in which case they were responsible for it in virtue of their complete surrender of their individual autonomy.
The position is arble-garble. The Templars didn't exist independent of the Chantry. The Inquisition existed, and entered into an Accord with the Chantry. The Inquisition was immediately dissolved and eradicated as an organization and absorbed into the Chantry. Through millenia, the newly formed organization went through a series of changes, including becoming jailers and the military arm of the Chantry.
This would be something other than a laughable argument if the actual former members of the Inquisition broke off from the Chantry in the years immediately following their dissolution. It doesn't matter what gibberish justification the templars think they can point to - by the events of Asunder, they were a formal part of the Chantry and their actions are treason and/or mutiny, depending on how technical you want to get about it.
There's no difference.
Yeah, blindly following orders. Not a defence.
The declaration that the population could eat **** while the Templars chill somewhere else wasn't really discreet. By that point, the pretense of protecting the common people from magic was undeniably bunk.
I suppose I can get on board with that. But I don't see how the mage rebellion could have ended any other way than utter failure.
I think that's personal bias speaking now
Or maybe I just have too much faith in people. I expect better from everyone in general. Not just mages..
You might be right about the mage class being more interactive. It's funny, because the signature Hawke is mage, but I can't shake the feeling that Kirkwall was a rogue's paradise. While DAI was supposed to be their signature rogue game, but maybe magic feels more at home.
Which is..?
The pimplars get chore table missions that have them helping Thedas instead of just trying to kill rebel mages. It doesn't redeem Templars for those who don't like templars or their past sins. Still I'm glad they included it. I don't remember if we could talk with rebel templars in skyhold. That also would have been nice.
I don't remember the rebel mages being given any meaningful chance to help but the chore table isn't the best story telling device and maybe I just don't remember. Ser Barris was more memorable in helping. I don't recall Fiona and the rebel mages helping on missions other than closing the breach and the arbor wilds battle. Not that this would be a fault in writing they just don't necessarily feel the same responsibility to a society they feel didn't treat them well. Would have been nice to at least see they cared to insure the Tranquil murders was dealt with but some mages seem to have issues with Tranquils. Not that the Inquisition seemed to care about Tranquils other than the ones that could be used.
Not a defense, but an explanation. The mages have no explanation.
Fear isn't enough of an explanation to them?
In the Hinterlands alone we see mages and refugees alike being targeted by the Templars and vice versa. A burned house with mages, bodies on the side of the roads, bandits scurrying on every well-travelled road, conflicts between Templars and mages at pretty much every notable location toward the crossroads, etc. And remember, not every Inquisitor has dealt with the renegade Templars and mages by the time they went to Redcliffe, so it is still possible they have the power mad apostates and Templars to deal with as well. The Hinterlands, if they decide to leave Redcliffe, is a dangerous mess to go through and they know it. Anyone with a half a brain wouldn't want to go through it unless there was a guarantee of safety (which they didn't have. The time manipulation Alexius resorted to made it seem like the Inquisition only had minimal interest in them and not likely to help).
Mages are not like the order, they have little military training and don't regularly deal with combat threats like the Templars. It is natural for them to be scared.
Then you have to consider the mages who consider it their duty to follow the First Enchanter. Just like many Templars have faith in their higher tiered position to make the right decisions, so too do some of the mages.
I'd rather blame it on how poorly planned their writing is.
Or rather, how easily they abandoned their previous (and good) writing and tried to reinvent themselves here, with a new plot. It's totally unnecessary. There was more potential in a detailed mage/temp war. Not this idiotic stillbirth of a war.
Lucius' rationale was that they were protecting the people, but the people were not giving them respect. So until the people recognize them, they will leave the people to defend themselves with their own soldiers. While many templars followed this plan, more of them began to doubt as time went on.
Protection was never mentioned as being part of (fake) Lucius' platform, ever... at least, beyond the acknowledgement that the Templars would not be providing anything of the sort. Ambition and violent purgation, that's the mission statement.
My husband (username RoughTumble on the BSN) and I play in tandem. He's usually plays a warrior role and I usually play a mage. That works out in mmo for us because we make a good tank/healer team. With playing parallel in DA:I, we came up with a head-fiction to shake the game up a little.
He played a Templar and I challenged him to think of reasons to go with the mages. He decided to role play as if his secret lover was a mage from the circle where he served. With that added head-canon'd motivation, he sided with the mages and dealt with the added angst of seeing his brothers go Red and feeling partially responsible.
In return, I played a Rift Mage and accepted the same challenge. I played as if my lover was among the Templars under Lord Seeker Lucius. I sided with the Templars while playing that I meant to save him demonic corruption of the Order, and red lyrium. I had to deal with the idea that I'd forsaken mages in need and had to accept at least some responsibility for their militarization and eventual bad end.
There are very, very few instances in which I've actually cried over a video game (ok, I cried when Cailan and Duncan died) but was moved to tears over the quandary of fighting 'my own kind' for love of one among the 'enemy'.
Playing those little head games truly enhanced playing the game and was a good exercise in seeing things from another point of view.
In short, the game, including which path provides you most enjoyment, is what you make of it.
My husband (username RoughTumble on the BSN) and I play in tandem. He's usually plays a warrior role and I usually play a mage. That works out in mmo for us because we make a good tank/healer team. With playing parallel in DA:I, we came up with a head-fiction to shake the game up a little.
He played a Templar and I challenged him to think of reasons to go with the mages. He decided to role play as if his secret lover was a mage from the circle where he served. With that added head-canon'd motivation, he sided with the mages and dealt with the added angst of seeing his brothers go Red and feeling partially responsible.
In return, I played a Rift Mage and accepted the same challenge. I played as if my lover was among the Templars under Lord Seeker Lucius. I sided with the Templars while playing that I meant to save him demonic corruption of the Order, and red lyrium. I had to deal with the idea that I'd forsaken mages in need and had to accept at least some responsibility for their militarization and eventual bad end.
There are very, very few instances in which I've actually cried over a video game (ok, I cried when Cailan and Duncan died) but was moved to tears over the quandary of fighting 'my own kind' for love of one among the 'enemy'.
Playing those little head games truly enhanced playing the game and was a good exercise in seeing things from another point of view.
In short, the game, including which path provides you most enjoyment, is what you make of it.
I'm not a big fan of the game, but I can appreciate your roleplaying. 
You're making me hate not just the mage/temp sides now, but everyone.
With the sad track of the mage/templar war and the stupidity of Orlesion royalty, the chantry, Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens it is a very bleak world in DAI. It's an odd soul-less disconnect that the Herald doesn't mention it in the main game. It's not until Trespasser that they finally seem like they aren't Tranquil.
With the sad track of the mage/templar war and the stupidity of Orlesion royalty, the chantry, Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens it is a very bleak world in DAI. It's an odd soul-less disconnect that the Herald doesn't mention it in the main game. It's not until Trespasser that they finally seem like they aren't Tranquil.
Still haven't played Trespasser. That's good to know
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