173 réponses à ce sujet

[Terodil]

With the sad track of the mage/templar war and the stupidity of Orlesion royalty, the chantry, Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens it is a very bleak world in DAI. It's an odd soul-less disconnect that the Herald doesn't mention it in the main game. It's not until Trespasser that they finally seem like they aren't Tranquil.

Maybe that's BW's way to elicit some more understanding for Solas? He felt like everybody was tranquil when he first awoke

Nono, well said. And beyond what we've actually had a chance to influence (or not...), the Qun and Tevinter don't really inspire confidence either for what is to come.

I don't mind dark and gritty but sometimes, just sometimes, I'd like to see something good thrive, for a change. It's not just wishful naivete, it's also that darkness becomes oppressive and ultimately boring if there are no light spots here and there. The only sweet thing that hasn't died off that I've seen so far was the Inquisitor/Cullen romance (never played a m!Inq). A little more Mass Effect and a little less GoT would probably make the DA universe more interesting.

(And hopefully we can leave the whole religious stuff behind us at some point, I personally can't take any more SPEAK ONLY THE CHANT and A LEARNED CHILD IS A BLESSING and MOST HOLY SAID ANDRASTE... I always thought it was bad already in DA:O and DA:KW, but in DA:I it really went over 9000.)

[straykat]

A little more Mass Effect and a little less GoT would probably make the DA universe more interesting.

 

Actually, I'd prefer GoT... if only because the movers and shakers and villains are politicians.. and the wars extend over seasons. Instead of end mostly offscreen in idiocy. One, maybe two people, who can call on magic (red woman and Daenerys), but even then, it's not as silly as stuff we see in games. While the real magic is looming far off (winter is coming).

 

I get your point though about things being a bit bleak.

[Terodil]

I love reading but GoT... I put that away after reading the first book, despite having the two sequels already lying on my desk. I have too much fantasy and empathy to enjoy routinely seeing characters I just got to know getting killed horribly.

[In Exile]

Actually, I'd prefer GoT... if only because the movers and shakers and villains are politicians.. and the wars extend over seasons. Instead of end mostly offscreen in idiocy. One, maybe two people, who can call on magic (red woman and Daenerys), but even then, it's not as silly as stuff we see in games. While the real magic is looming far off (winter is coming).

 

I get your point though about things being a bit bleak.

 

I don't think that really works in a game. The closest you get is something like TW2, but even then, the whole plot turns on how Geralt is a special snowflake in the right place and at the right time.

[JadeDragon]

With the sad track of the mage/templar war and the stupidity of Orlesion royalty, the chantry, Ferelden, and the Grey Wardens it is a very bleak world in DAI. It's an odd soul-less disconnect that the Herald doesn't mention it in the main game. It's not until Trespasser that they finally seem like they aren't Tranquil.

Which is why Thedas should not be surprised when the Qunari invade. They are probably reading the spy reports thinking they need to save these idiots from themselves

[straykat]

I don't think that really works in a game. The closest you get is something like TW2, but even then, the whole plot turns on how Geralt is a special snowflake in the right place and at the right time.

 

I think games won't grow if they can't. There's all this talk about games being a new medium of art, but if they remain juvenile.. or to be nice.. too grandiose.. then they won't be.

[In Exile]

I think games won't grow if they can't. There's all this talk about games being a new medium of art, but if they remain juvenile.. or to be nice.. too grandiose.. then they won't be.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant, I don't see a way of actually creating a game like AGoT. I'm not sure how you could do it, because you have a central POV character. The TellTale game tries to make it work by having a multiple protagonist system, and even then, it's not quite like the series. 

[Terodil]

I think games won't grow if they can't. There's all this talk about games being a new medium of art, but if they remain juvenile.. or to be nice.. too grandiose.. then they won't be.

Huh. But... if your protagonist isn't a 'special snowflake', i.e. has no real agency, has no real impact, etc. -- wouldn't that basically mean you'd just recreate a rather boring RL simulator?

Fair enough, some people like that -- probably like a lot of people like documentaries --, but I also like mystery or fantasy programmes that go beyond the usual politics/daily grime routine. I'm not sure that calling them 'juvenile' or refusing to call them 'art' is fair, tbh. Art comes in a lot of shapes or forms.

[sim-ran]

The only way I can justify going the templar route story-wise is by role-playing that the restriction on being forced to choose one of the paths doesn't exist; it is after all a construction within the game that your character can't be aware of. Therefore they sometimes are more pro-templar, and intrigued by the behavior in Val Royeaux they go to Therinfal Redoubt first, thinking they can "deal with Redcliffe later". Only afterwards it becomes clear for them that the path is set.

I know the game persistently tries to tell the player that a choice must be made, but my Inky can choose to ignore that .

I do this too!

I imagine the Inquisitor plans to gain Templar support to then use against the Tevinter trap in Redcliff.

[sim-ran]

You're making me hate not just the mage/temp sides now, but everyone. They had make everyone so stupid and hopeless, just to write this game.

Sadly they always do that in Bioware RPGs

In fact I completely didn't see plot twists coming because based on past experience I just put the clues down to bad writing. Solas banging on about "an artifact" before we even knew how the explosion happened, Blackwall just being "the Calling whatever", etc...

[thesuperdarkone2]

I do this too!

I imagine the Inquisitor plans to gain Templar support to then use against the Tevinter trap in Redcliff.

Except your advisors straight up tell you that won't work

[straykat]

Huh. But... if your protagonist isn't a 'special snowflake', i.e. has no real agency, has no real impact, etc. -- wouldn't that basically mean you'd just recreate a rather boring RL simulator?

Fair enough, some people like that -- probably like a lot of people like documentaries --, but I also like mystery or fantasy programmes that go beyond the usual politics/daily grime routine. I'm not sure that calling them 'juvenile' or refusing to call them 'art' is fair, tbh. Art comes in a lot of shapes or forms.

 

You're limiting yourself. It's not an either/or thing.

 

That's my only point.. there shouldn't be any formula or fear of what can't be done. I don't want games to hit a ceiling. They have potential to be as good as books or film, I think.

[Cute Nug]

Which is why Thedas should not be surprised when the Qunari invade. They are probably reading the spy reports thinking they need to save these idiots from themselves

 

Odd that Solas doesn't mention/use the horror that is Thedas when he reveals his plans to alter Thedas.

 

In DAI the Grey Spawn, mages, pimplars, Orlesions, Ferelden, Qunari, and Tevinter only added to his argument that maybe current Thedas was a mistake.

 

I don't remember if he says that they will soon try to get rid of the Inquisition which was the only group willing to help Thedas when needed. They definitely should have had him use that line with the next scene being the Inquisition being being dismantled or simply becoming the Divine's honor guard.

[Xerrai]

Odd that Solas doesn't mention/use the horror that is Thedas when he reveals his plans to alter Thedas.

Maybe it would take too much time to animate/develop? Or Solas didn't want to come off as if he was justifying his cause any more than he already was?

[straykat]

Odd that Solas doesn't mention/use the horror that is Thedas when he reveals his plans to alter Thedas.

 

Corypheus does at least. He's disgusted with the world, after waking up. Of course, it's from his Magister point of view and wants to be paid fealty... and he's mostly disgusted with the Blights..

 

But still! He thinks the world is crap. I imagine Solas came to an agreement with him before the Conclave.

 

But again, I think it's just bad writing. My Hawke told the Arishok he loved the world. And I/Hawke really did... at least back then. The world was a little more fun. I had less desire to fix everything.

[In Exile]

Odd that Solas doesn't mention/use the horror that is Thedas when he reveals his plans to alter Thedas.

 

In DAI the Grey Spawn, mages, pimplars, Orlesions, Ferelden, Qunari, and Tevinter only added to his argument that maybe current Thedas was a mistake.

 

I don't remember if he says that they will soon try to get rid of the Inquisition which was the only group willing to help Thedas when needed. They definitely should have had him use that line with the next scene being the Inquisition being being dismantled or simply becoming the Divine's honor guard.

 

His world was pretty horrid. Remember, he says that the Veil was necessary because what the Evanuris contemplated was even worse. We don't necessarily have any reason to think his old world was "better" in the sense of being free from tyranny or monstrosities like the darkspawn. Just that the elves were "more", and the Veil didn't exist. 

[Hellion Rex]

After having played both the Mage path and the Templar path as well as allying and conscripting them, I am of the opinion that the Templar path is better than the Mage path, regardless of alliance or conscription. Here are my reasons.

 

1) Faction Aversary - Here we have Samson versus Calpernia. Since Samson was introduced in Dragon Age 2, you would think that he has the edge on Calpernia since he has a one game head start but he does not. Personally, I found myself sympathizing more with the ex-slave turned Tevinter nationalist Calpernia over ex-Templar turned Red Templar Samson. To elaborate, in Dragon Age 2, we see Samson being extremely disenchanted with the Mage cause but in Dragon Age Inquisition, we somehow see him allying with one of the most notable Mage villain of all time, an ancient Tevinter magister turned Darkspawn. We could also have a civilized conversation with Calpernia and let her go which is refreshing for a villain encounter. Lastly, I find the notion of Samson being the Vessel instead of Calpernia absolutely preposterous and laughable. I mean, what does Samson know of ancient magics and knowledge ?

 

2) Faction Leader - This one is a match up between Barris and Fiona. Fiona has been introduced to Dragon Age fans twice via 2 books, The Calling and Asunder. Naturally with her head start, you would expect Fiona to be better than Barris but like Samson, Fiona flounders. In both The Calling and Asunder, Fiona is portrayed as a rebel and a someone who is anti status quo. She is someone who has rebelled against the Circle system and the Chantry but she can't rebel against a single Tevinter magister ? That is completely ridiculous and out of character for her. Furthermore, unlike Fiona, Barris actually recognizes that the Templars screwed up and helps the Inquisition during Champions of the Just whereas Fiona does absolutely nothing to help you and goes along with Alexius' plans despite her career as an ex-Grey Warden and the Grand Enchanter. This trend continues after the quests where Barris continues to be productive regardless of alliance of conscription of the Templars. He can either lead the reformed Templar Order if the Herald chooses alliance or he will become Cullen's agent anyway. Meanwhile, Fiona just hangs around the library doing absolutely nothing for the Inquisition. This is despite the fact that she is a Spirit Healer, the Dragon Age wiki lists her as one (http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_healer), which theoretically makes her a someone that could be very useful but we never see her healing anybody throughout the game.

 

3) Recruitment Questline - In Hushed Whispers takes you through the Redcliffe Castle and a journey through the future, courtesy of time magic. Much of the quest is carried by the awesome Dorian. However, time magic is supposedly something that is revolutionary and dangerous. Yet, we never hear about it at all after the whole quest is over. There is no discussion about timelines, about alternate universes, parallel realities, etc.Moreover, the whole "Elder One" title is poorly done because if you have lived for a year under Corypheus' rule, you must know who he is, you must know what he is and accordingly must inform Dorian and the Herald instead of just calling him the "Elder One". This is especially true of the Dreadegg Wolfhead. There is also the painful reality that you technically did absolutely nothing during portions of the In Hushed Whispers. I mean, you went one year forward, did some stuff and then returned one year back to the present moment. 1 + (-1) = 0. If there was some effect due to our future actions then yeah, I can see the time travel having meaning but there wasn't any effect. Last but not the least, we have Cole, who has a very weird introduction if you complete In Hushed Whispers. He just pops out, says Templars are here and that the Elder One is angry. I mean, Cole is a unique phenomena in Dragon Age Inquisition and he deserves a proper exposition. On the other hand, Champions of the Just starts out as a political quest which then takes grim and exciting turn into confronting the Envy Demon while its trying to steal your identity followed by saving Templars  and then having an epic battle with the Envy Demon. In my opinion, the Fade is safer than the Dark Future. What's more, you get to see your advisors and Cassandra being mean and evil which is a nice touch. Cole's introduction and character is properly fleshed out in Champions of the Just and Dorian's Haven introduction also makes a lot more sense to his "I am a Tevinter mage but I am different" characterization because he shows up to warn you of the invading Venatori mage cultists and help Roderick. To top it all off, Champions of the Just has more Codex and more notable loot compared to In Hushed Whispers. Champions of the Just have 6 notable loot and 13 Codex Entries (http://dragonage.wik...ons_of_the_Just) compared to In Hushed Whispers which have 5 notable loot and 7 Codex Entries (http://dragonage.wik...Hushed_Whispers). On a side note, as a mage Herald, The Sunless Staff which you get from Champions of the Just is better than Staff of Stasis which you get In Hushed Whispers and as a rogue Herald, Audacity which you get from Champions of the Just is better than Bleeder of Souls which you get In Hushed Whispers.You also get extra Attribute points by besting Envy in the Fade but you do not get anything of the sort in the Dark Future.

 

4) Plot Coherence - The Templar path makes a lot more sense to the whole story compared to the Mage path. For one, Calpernia's Under Her Skin quest prepares you for What Pride Had Wrought quest because of all the references to Elven ruins, references to Calpernia being the Vessel and because of Corypheus' own reference to the Well of Sorrows. The Templar path also introduces us to the Memory Crystal which prepares us for the one we might get in Trespasser from Dorian. There is also the fact that Cassandra's personal quest, Promise of Destruction, ties in with the Templar Path since we actually know that Envy impersonated Lord Seeker instead of just hearsay. Finally, Varric's personal quest, Well Sh*t, explains how Corypheus got hold of Red Lyrium and what it actually is. This means that Samson's quest is quite pointless because we will know about Red Lyrium from Bianca. Finally, the killing blow comes in the form of the Temple of Dumat quest which will be further elaborated below.

 

5) Corypheus Himself - I often hear from many people that Corypheus is blank nonentity who is a lame villain. However, when you play the Templar path, Corypheus' motives are very well explained. In the Temple of Dumat quest, we come across Corypheus' journals where he talks about his agony over the silence of Dumat, his respect for Calpernia's abilities and subsequent elevation of Calpernia and his regret at using her as the Vessel. All of a sudden, this blank nonentity villain becomes someone that you can understand and someone that had emotional complexity. By contrast, the only interesting thing with Samson's quest was Maddox, who has next to nothing to do with Corypheus.

 

6) Sound & Animations - The stabbing of the weapon to the ground is something that Templars do. They did it once during Champions of the Just to fight the Envy Demon and it makes sense for you to see them doing it again to help the Herald close the Breach. In fact, the sound effect that plays is metal striking ground and the light that comes out when they do that move is also similar to the move Templars did when facing Envy. As for the mages, the only time mages slam their staff to the ground is when casting Horror, which doesn't really help. Lastly, in the Temple of Mythal questline, we see a cutscene where either the Venatori or the Red Templar kill an Ancient Elf by burning them with fire. Red Templars are not know to be able to conjure fire.

 

To conclude, I think that the Templar path is better than the Mage path. To add on this, I think the one of the main reason people choose the Mage path is because it is littered with cameos and recurrent characters such as Fiona, Connor, Alistair, Anora, and Samson. If you did not have them, I think the Mage path would be far less appealing.

 

Personally, my canonical world state is a Male Elven Mage Inquisitor who conscripted the Templars, managed to let Clan Lavellan become Wycome's ruler, had Cullen try to cure himself of Lyrium addiction, have Cassandra reform the Seekers, united Celene & Briala, romanced Josephine and made Leliana the Divine. That way the lyrium addicted Templar Order is gone, we only have reformed Seekers now, there are Elves ruling a human city without issues, we have good pro-Elven reforms from the Chantry and from Orlais, future mages have a fresh start and Lavellan can live a happy chill life in Antiva when its all over. As for how I justified not helping the Mages, Lavellan took one look at the Tevinter allying and enslaving with the Mages and gave the finger to the whole thing. Dalish Elves are not fond of Templars or Tevinter but he'd take a Templar over Tevinter slaver any day. He recruited the Tranquil Clemence before leaving though.

 

Thoughts & Comments ?

Absolutely agree!

[sim-ran]

Except your advisors straight up tell you that won't work

It's kind of a forced headcanon thing. I don't like choosing the templars over the mages and I don't normally RP an anti-mage Inquisitor but (as we've already discussed in depth) the game and story flow so much better on the templar route. So I just headcanon this motivate. There's actually very little to contradict it.

[straykat]

His world was pretty horrid. Remember, he says that the Veil was necessary because what the Evanuris contemplated was even worse. We don't necessarily have any reason to think his old world was "better" in the sense of being free from tyranny or monstrosities like the darkspawn. Just that the elves were "more", and the Veil didn't exist. 

 

Without the Veil, I imagine the setting becomes a magical wonderland.. So that wouldn't be better to me at least. There's no interesting stories to tell in such a place... at all. I hope Bioware themselves don't see it as a desirable thing. Like they turned Mass Effect upside down.

 

I would like elves to be "more" though.. but I think the Chantry can do that, with the right nudge. Not necessarily genetically "more", but dignity wise, it might be possible. If the Qunari didn't denounce individuality, I'd say the same for them too. Elves wouldn't be primordial angelic beings.. but whatever.. they'd at least be seen as good as anyone else. Anyone who wants more than that is an *******.

 

Same could be said for TES. At least, according to Michael Kirkbride, the ultimate end is that the elves actually "win". What the hell.

[Cute Nug]

His world was pretty horrid. Remember, he says that the Veil was necessary because what the Evanuris contemplated was even worse. We don't necessarily have any reason to think his old world was "better" in the sense of being free from tyranny or monstrosities like the darkspawn. Just that the elves were "more", and the Veil didn't exist. 

 

True, the argument that my pretty horrid world is better than the current pretty horrid world doesn't work to well.

 

Either he is badly written, a psychopath which wouldn't care about the thousands to die in the world change, or there is more he is not telling that makes the current fate of Thedas without the Veil adjustment to actually be a worse outcome at least according to him.

 

I'm still surprised he didn't comment how Thedas will get rid of the Inquisition which was the only organization willing to help when needed in DAI. Him being right on that cuts deeper in the next scene.

[In Exile]

True, the argument that my pretty horrid world is better than the current pretty horrid world doesn't work to well.

 

Either he is badly written, a psychopath which wouldn't care about the thousands to die in the world change, or there is more he is not telling that makes the current fate of Thedas without the Veil adjustment to actually be a worse outcome at least according to him.

 

I'm still surprised he didn't comment how Thedas will get rid of the Inquisition which was the only organization willing to help when needed in DAI. Him being right on that cuts deeper in the next scene.

 

Well, he basically condemned the Qun for oppressing the "brilliant few" for the sake of the mundane majority, so I'd wager it's not so much that Solas doesn't care that he'll kill (a lot more than just thousands) as much as he thinks certain kinds of people deserve to live more. 

[straykat]

True, the argument that my pretty horrid world is better than the current pretty horrid world doesn't work to well.

 

Either he is badly written, a psychopath which wouldn't care about the thousands to die in the world change, or there is more he is not telling that makes the current fate of Thedas without the Veil adjustment to actually be a worse outcome at least according to him.

 

I'm still surprised he didn't comment how Thedas will get rid of the Inquisition which was the only organization willing to help when needed in DAI. Him being right on that cuts deeper in the next scene.

 

Maybe he's psychotic, but I think he's right about something. He thought elves would fare better after what he did.

 

But they didn't. Thedas has failed. But maybe it's not too late.

 

Do you think he'd be just as pissed if Andraste and Shartan won? I doubt it.

[In Exile]

Maybe he's psychotic, but I think he's right about something. Maybe he thought elves would fare better after what he did.

 

But they didn't. Thedas has failed at whatever he thought it could be for his people. But maybe it's not too late.

 

Do you think he'd just as pissed if Andraste and Shartan won? I doubt it.

 

Cole disagrees - he is quite adamant that Solas did save them all, even though they died. 

[SweetTeaholic]

Cole disagrees - he is quite adamant that Solas did save them all, even though they died. 

 

Curious, where did Cole say that? I don't think I've heard him say that anywhere.

[straykat]

I don't remember it either. I don't remember a lot of things.

 

I guess the issue with me is whether he cares about justice or insists that elves be completely restored..I'd make an effort at fulfilling the first. I don't care about the latter.