322 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Elapsed time, maybe 15 minutes.  No amnesia, you get an idea of what was going on before the explosion, you see the vital characters, get a handle on who the factions are and what their take is, but you're still very much in the dark as to what actually happened.

The lack of amnesia is a substantive change here. How come you're doing that? I also think that time estimate's a bit short, given the amount of material you're covering.

More generally, while this is pretty good, if I had a bunch of extra wordcount to burn in DAI this isn't how I'd burn it. Though that's easy for me to say since this is solving a problem which I'm not having but you are.

[Lezio]

OK, I'm repeating some of this here because you seem to have ignored half the points I've said.

 

2 - The reason I played a character who didn't want to be a Warden, is because the game offered me this option for the first several hours. Yes I could have role-played differently - but how was I to know that I wouldn't be allowed to play a Warden with that attitude, when the game gave me that option for the first several hours? Shepard doesn't have the option to not want to stop the Reapers, and that option is never presented. But in Origins, the game kept giving me options to say I didn't want to be a Warden and to be reluctant about it, than suddenly took that option away. If a game gives me the option to present a viewpoint, that suggests that it is a supported roleplaying option. It should not suddenly take that option away with no explanation or reasoning. 

 

Actually, you can play that kind of warden until the ending credits   Hell, you can even say to Riordan "Nope, not gonna kill tha Archdemon, that's your business" and you can basically throw Alistair/Loghain at it (if you didn't already take Morrigan's ritual)

Obviously the game is not gonna let you "nice to see ya, byeeeeee" but playing a not-really-warden Warden is very possible throughout ALL of Origins and Awakening. I mean, seriously, i had a Cousland run where my guy NEVER referred to himself as a Grey Warden(and also became king, what's more unwardenly than that?)...... which makes me realize that all of the racial options for the "Qunari" race make my Vashot character proudly call himself a qunari, which is kinda stupid. But then again, there is a whole dialogue with Iron Bull about the kossith so meh

[Shechinah]

So what you're saying is that we should do the writers' job for them?

 

I find coming up with a backstory for my character easy enough, but I also find it ridiculously wasteful. I can create the most intricate background for the Inquisitor that informs his actions throughout, but the result is that 99% of his characterization is in my head and only 1% in the actual game. Maybe that's okay for some people, but for me it is quite pointless. It's never going to have any appreciable impact on the game, and as such that creative potential is better spent on tabletop roleplay or, even better, on writing my own story — where all of that stuff I came up with will actually matter.

 

Thedas is a pretty interesting setting, you know? But DAI makes a terrible job of showing that. And part of the reason why is that the main character feels completely detached from the world and what's going on. He could as well have fallen out of the sk... Oh, right.

 

Of course not; the writers provide the blank slate and the options with which the player can define their character through and roleplay. It is therefore seen as being through the player the character is created rather than through the writers.

 

The Inquisitor and Revan are examples of characters whom the writers give to the player to create characterization for through options, dialogue and actions, provided by the writers.

 

I too think Thedas is a pretty interesting but I felt Inquisition did a plenty good job of showing it: I had no trouble creating characterization for my Inquisitor. True, not all of her characterization came to play but that has never happened before and I do not expect to be. 

 

I did not feel like she was  distached to the plot either. I did feel, however, there should have been more dialogue options.

 

My latter two paragraphs are not intended as slights towards you by the way. They are merely intending to show that I am of a different opinion and consider the matter to be a matter of personal taste.
 

[Abyss108]

Actually, you can play that kind of warden until the ending credits   Hell, you can even say to Riordan "Nope, not gonna kill tha Archdemon, that's your business" and you can basically throw Alistair/Loghain at it (if you didn't already take Morrigan's ritual)

Obviously the game is not gonna let you "nice to see ya, byeeeeee" but playing a not-really-warden Warden is very possible throughout ALL of Origins and Awakening. I mean, seriously, i had a Cousland run where my guy NEVER referred to himself as a Grey Warden(and also became king, what's more unwardenly than that?)...... which makes me realize that all of the racial options for the "Qunari" race make my Vashot character proudly call himself a qunari, which is kinda stupid. But then again, there is a whole dialogue with Iron Bull about the kossith so meh

 

Except then nothing you do matches watches you say. You spend the entire game being the best warden you can be. Obviously in some way the game was always going to make you do this, but I assumed it would be done in a way that made the earlier dialogue options the game gave you made sense. Like, you would be forced into it by the higher ups, or something more personal would get you involved etc. The game didn't do that.

[Lezio]

Of course not; the writers provide the blank slate and the options with which the player can define their character through and roleplay. It is therefore seen as being through the player the character is created rather than through the writers.

 

The Inquisitor and Revan are examples of characters whom the writers give to the player to create characterization for through options, dialogue and actions, provided by the writers.

 

I too think Thedas is a pretty interesting but I felt Inquisition did a plenty good job of showing it: I had no trouble creating characterization for my Inquisitor. True, not all of her characterization came to play but that has never happened before and I do not expect to be. 

 

I did not feel like she was  distached to the plot either. I did feel, however, there should have been more dialogue options.

 

My latter two paragraphs are not intended as slights towards you by the way. They are merely intending to show that I am of a different opinion and consider the matter to be a matter of personal taste.
 

 

Revan and the Inquisitor, IMHO, are worlds apart in RP value. To me, The Inquisitor mostly felt like this guy who does stuff and sometimes does them for a reason, while Revan because (and only because, if i have to be honest) of the whole amnesia gains a phenomenal character depth. As i said, if they had gone the whole way with The Inquisitor and his amnesia i could have gotten behind that, like this his establishment as a character just feels forced.

 

Now that i think about it, one other reason i don't really like the pre-Haven destruction is that the Herald, this everyday guy, finds himself leading a group of the badass without anyone bating an eye. I mean, seriously, why doesn't Cassandra lead everyone Pre-Skyhold? She's the oldest, she's killed a freaking dragon, so inlore she's pretty freaking powerful, and she's the one who made The Inquisition. I'm not saying she should have become Inquisitor, but at least not giving the wildcard the power to do as he pleased from the getgo

 

I mean, it's like Loghain joining forces with The Warden really early in the game and handing him over Ferelden cuz...... you have something that makes you special therefore you have better judgment and better qualified to lead than me

 

 

Granted, my favorite is The Exile between the 2, but, IMHO, The Inquisitor doesn't even compare

[Jedi Comedian]

A Qunari Sellsword Origin would have been badass (and completely new).

[FiveThreeTen]

YES

This is one of my biggest problem with Inquistion.

 

In this day and age I kinda got the impression there is a sort of "conflict" among RPG players between people who wants a very set character and others who prefer blank state.

I feel DA:O provided a nice balanced approach. :

The playable Origins allowed you to set a character in the world AND gave you several opportunities to start customizing your character and your experience.

Not that I think ALL RPGs should adopt this particular approach, since I can roleplay just fine without the game giving me too much infos, but I happen to really like this one, and it remains my favourite formula for DA games

 

It would have been nice having each background allowing you to interact with a relative/fellow mercenary etc. in Inquisition, with small options so that we can feel more involved in the whole summit thing.

 

We had some options in Origins:

For example, your character can voice if s/he is ok with your mother trying to marry you/how your character interacts with the dog for the HN or agreeing to help Jowan VS working with the Grand Enchanter etc. for the Mage origin etc.

While one could argue these choices appear "meaningless" and some don't have a far reach in the story, I think they really help immersion.

 

But I'm very sceptic Bioware will ever do Origins style prologue again (sadly), but having even a shorter prologue pre-Temple of Sacred Ashes explosion would have been a huge improvment.

[Lezio]

Except then nothing you do matches watches you say. You spend the entire game being the best warden you can be. Obviously in some way the game was always going to make you do this, but I assumed it would be done in a way that made the earlier dialogue options the game gave you made sense. Like, you would be forced into it by the higher ups, or something more personal would get you involved etc. The game didn't do that.

 

I'm sorry, but in what the way should have the game made you do stuff your character didn't want to do? Begged your character to gather one more ally and then everything would be over?   I'm sorry, not really getting your point

My Cousland hated being a warden to the point that he never called himself a GW and he didn't save his homeland because it was the "wardenly" thing to do, he did it because it was, y'know, his homeland. Similiarly, an incredibly selfcentered character can either accept that to save himself he has to gather an army with the means at his disposal...... or die in Kirkwall's darktown, i guess

[In Exile]

The lack of amnesia is a substantive change here. How come you're doing that? I also think that time estimate's a bit short, given the amount of material you're covering.

More generally, while this is pretty good, if I had a bunch of extra wordcount to burn in DAI this isn't how I'd burn it. Though that's easy for me to say since this is solving a problem which I'm not having but you are.

 

You can't make the Conclave playable without re-writing the entire game. The whole point of not playing through it is that you don't know what happened - were you chosen? Did Andraste save you? Who caused the explosion? 

 

The scene plays different if the whole conversation at the start is:

Cassandra: "What happened!?"

Inquisitor: "Oh, well, the Grey Wardens and this talking darkspawn abomination used some magical orb to try and blow a hole through the Fade."

Cassandra: "Oh. Well, we better immediately get everyone on the same page about that one."

 

Cassandra: "People say Andraste saved you, and led you out of the Fade."

Inquisitor: "Nope. Probably a spirit. Absolutely not Andraste."

Cassandra: "Oh."

 

Alternatively, they could Trespasser it all, but then it's even dumber. You waste hours of game to reveal a plot that everyone already knows. 

[AlanC9]

Though you could implement most of the proposal; just have the Inquisitor's memory blank out a bit earlier, before spotting Cory and the GWs.

[In Exile]

Though you could implement most of the proposal; just have the Inquisitor's memory blank out a bit earlier, before spotting Cory and the GWs.

Yeah, but then I think you've completely wasted zots on a bunch of minor, dead characters. But I'm a big fan of in media res.

[Qis]

Yes, and that role is as inquisitor. You get plenty of opportunity to define how to act within that role during the game. An introduction that has little to none effect on the rest of the game would be pointless.

 

Inquisitor is of course a role, but that is a role out of title, but Role Playing is not just playing a role out of a title, but a role of a character.

 

Like i said in sex you can play a role of a king/queen, fine, your partner role is a servant, your partner bow to you before sex or whatever...these two roles are NOT character role

 

But if you act in a drama, you play as King Arthur, you playing a character of King Arthur, not just the King title but the person Arthur...you see Arthur is a person, King is his title...when you play as King Arthur do you play a role of a king or "King Arthur"?

 

Being an "Inquisitor" does NOT defne your character, the same as being a "King", but being "Inquisitor Trevelyan" define it, who is "Inquisitor Trevelyan"?

 

If you play as yourself in the game, then you are not role-playing....this is a mistake most players do, they play as themselves and they call it "role-playing"...the developers also fall into this mistake, they making games where players play as themselves and they said they make a "Role Playing Game"

[PsychoBlonde]

The lack of amnesia is a substantive change here. How come you're doing that? I also think that time estimate's a bit short, given the amount of material you're covering.

More generally, while this is pretty good, if I had a bunch of extra wordcount to burn in DAI this isn't how I'd burn it. Though that's easy for me to say since this is solving a problem which I'm not having but you are.

 

Because amnesia is a godawful writing crutch that no half-decent writer should use simply for the purpose of making reveals more convenient, that's why.

 

I mean, seriously, if the Nightmare was able to selectively edit your memory, why didn't it just HANG ONTO you?  Why didn't it do it again LATER?  The mysterious Divine Impersonator saved you?  It creates unnecessary holes and the story gains nothing thereby.

 

I wouldn't say "never have a character with amnesia".  The rule is "never have a device that is OBVIOUSLY a device".  Revan's amnesia was awesome.  Nameless's amnesia was awesome.  The Inquisitor's amnesia was pointless.  Not only did it not ADD anything, they had to come in and deliberately clean it up later.

 

They use devices like this a lot.  The crazy exposition character, aka "we want to tell you how scary everything is, but not actually tell you anything".  You never hear a "rumor" unless it's absolutely 100% true.  Same for "story", "legend", etc.

 

The funny part is that you also see a lot of things with no clue what they're supposed to mean.  In the "declaring the Inquisition" cinematic, for instance, Leliana sends out those two crows to two different locations.  Did you have the SLIGHTEST clue what those locations were supposed to mean?  It was Redcliffe and Therinfall Redoubt--she was communicating with the mage and templar leaders.  But here's where it gets dumb--the Templars hadn't withdrawn to Therinfall Redoubt yet--they do that AFTER you go to Val Royeaux and talk to Lord Seeker Lucius.  So . . . why did Leliana send a message there?  How did she KNOW to send a message there?!  WTF was going on?!

 

The game wasn't bad, but it was SLOPPY.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

If you play as yourself in the game, then you are not role-playing....this is a mistake most players do, they play as themselves and they call it "role-playing"...the developers also fall into this mistake, they making games where players play as themselves and they said they make a "Role Playing Game"

 

So you're the expert on how people should play the game, now?

 

There is no "should" with regard to the "correct" way to play.  Nor is there a correct amount of backstory.  There is no One True Role Playing Game Paradigm.

What there are, are good ways to make use of your resources, limitations, and decisions, and not-so-good ways.  If you're smart enough, you can get away with almost anything.  If you're not, even quite common and harmless contrivances become glaring defects.

[In Exile]

Because amnesia is a godawful writing crutch that no half-decent writer should use simply for the purpose of making reveals more convenient, that's why.

 

I mean, seriously, if the Nightmare was able to selectively edit your memory, why didn't it just HANG ONTO you?  Why didn't it do it again LATER?  The mysterious Divine Impersonator saved you?  It creates unnecessary holes and the story gains nothing thereby.

 

I wouldn't say "never have a character with amnesia".  The rule is "never have a device that is OBVIOUSLY a device".  Revan's amnesia was awesome.  Nameless's amnesia was awesome.  The Inquisitor's amnesia was pointless.  Not only did it not ADD anything, they had to come in and deliberately clean it up later.

 

They use devices like this a lot.  The crazy exposition character, aka "we want to tell you how scary everything is, but not actually tell you anything".  You never hear a "rumor" unless it's absolutely 100% true.  Same for "story", "legend", etc.

 

The funny part is that you also see a lot of things with no clue what they're supposed to mean.  In the "declaring the Inquisition" cinematic, for instance, Leliana sends out those two crows to two different locations.  Did you have the SLIGHTEST clue what those locations were supposed to mean?  It was Redcliffe and Therinfall Redoubt--she was communicating with the mage and templar leaders.  But here's where it gets dumb--the Templars hadn't withdrawn to Therinfall Redoubt yet--they do that AFTER you go to Val Royeaux and talk to Lord Seeker Lucius.  So . . . why did Leliana send a message there?  How did she KNOW to send a message there?!  WTF was going on?!

 

The game wasn't bad, but it was SLOPPY.

 

The cinematic is clearly some random marketing trailer they just slapped on to the start of the game for no reason (well, probably for the reason that they re-did that introduction relatively late in production, and clearly were running out of zots). 

 

Revan didn't have amensia in KoTOR. "Revan" was obliterated from existence. It was a deliberate memory erasure. Very different from, say, the Nameless One - who was more like a series of retrieval errors (and quasi-reincarnation). 

 

As for the Nightmare, I don't see the criticism. You can apply it to the whole questline with it. You escaped, and the spirit can somehow temper it. That's exactly what happens the second time around too. If it was stupid the first time, it was stupid in Here Lies the Abyss too.

 

And DA:I didn't use amnesia to make a reveal convenient - it wasn't about the reveal. It was about providence. I agree that Bioware doesn't necessarily need to have amnesia to make the providence aspect work, but the game has to be completely re-written once you cut it. 

[Shechinah]

...

 

I'm not sure where to even begin with this post but oh, I will get back to it.
 

[Addictress]

I think the amnesia worked for Skyrim. I became my PC in Skyrim. But that was the key to Skyrim's success.

 

In Skyrim, I wanted the monitor to suck my face into the game. If I could inject my soul into Skyrim, I would. So, removing any character and ANY barrier between myself, as player, and the avatar, was ideal. Thus I could walk about Nirn and look at each snowflake directly with my own naked eyes.

 

In Thedas, I need the character there. Why? Because I am not to look at each snowflake with naked eyes. They have built a strong narrative, and intend to move toward a defined end. I participate, but also must recognize that in order for the narrative to be water-tight, all the characters and actors within it have to synchronize and make sense within limited definitions of themselves.

 

Dragon Age is not loose and open anything-goes role-play. The plot and characters are woven too tightly and do not allow the room.

 

I realize that this makes it seem like it's really just a visual novel interspersed with shooting galleries or fighting bits.  But what they can do is have defined but dramatic branching. It is an interactive visual novel, but with branching alternate universes you can choose among. Still maintaining the strong character, but focusing on critical points of plot choice.

[Shechinah]

I don't remember the Dragonborn having amnesia?

[Addictress]

I don't remember the Dragonborn having amnesia?

Oh I mean, they didn't have any backstory as far as I'm aware. I kind of count it as the same thing 

[CoM Solaufein]

Amnesia worked in Kotor.

I probably should pay attention to dialogs and things to read in the game, but is it ever mentioned on why your character is at the conclave to begin with?

[Shechinah]

I probably should pay attention to dialogs and things to read in the game, but is it ever mentioned on why your character is at the conclave to begin with?

 

Yes, it's mentioned in the text underneath the cards that show your race, class and difficulty after you've selected them, I believe. There are different reasons for each race and sometimes the reason change depending on which combination you select as is the case with the human mage and the human warrior or rogue.
 

[CoM Solaufein]

Well, I'll have to actually do some reading the next time I start a new game then.

[sim-ran]

Yeah but my point was if whatever data Bioware have says players tends to keep on playing , or have a more positive experience (they will share with their friends online or not) with a Much EPic Action packed Intro , and demand for refunds are also low with that kind of things....
Much Epic Action Packed Intro instead of Origins we will keep on getting.

Most players never finish their long RPG games , (well I've read that somewhere) for example you'd want a zone like the Hinterland filled with stuff because that's what most players will see and reviewers will review , the Hissing Wastes can be almost empty because the number of player who will get there and play that zone will be fairly low.

Yes, sad to say but I only know one other person who finished DAO, and 4 others that got bored quickly and never went back to the franchise.

[Abyss108]

I'm sorry, but in what the way should have the game made you do stuff your character didn't want to do? Begged your character to gather one more ally and then everything would be over?   I'm sorry, not really getting your point

My Cousland hated being a warden to the point that he never called himself a GW and he didn't save his homeland because it was the "wardenly" thing to do, he did it because it was, y'know, his homeland. Similiarly, an incredibly selfcentered character can either accept that to save himself he has to gather an army with the means at his disposal...... or die in Kirkwall's darktown, i guess

 

My point is simply that Inquisition made me care about the plot, whilst Origins did not. Inquisition made me believe taking part in the plot was beneficial to my character whilst Origins did not. We can talk about the specifics all day about what we think worked or didn't work, but at the end of the day the plot for Origins simply did not work for me. I know it worked for other people. I know Inquisition didn't work for some people. But for me - Inquisition made me care, Origins did not.

[Abyss108]

Well, I'll have to actually do some reading the next time I start a new game then.

 

Why would you choose character background options, without actually reading what those options are? Especially in an RPG where these things are usually important.