Why would you choose character background options, without actually reading what those options are? Especially in an RPG where these things are usually important.
In fairness, CoM Solaufein might have thought there was an opening narration like in the previous games.
OK, I'm repeating some of this here because you seem to have ignored half the points I've said.
1 - The Justinia scene isn't about you trying to identify someone based off their personality, and how well you know them. If you could do that it wouldn't be a matter of faith. It would just be a question of whether you can identify someone by knowing their personality. That's not what this scene is about. There's much less of a question of faith if you know her.
2 - The reason I played a character who didn't want to be a Warden, is because the game offered me this option for the first several hours. Yes I could have role-played differently - but how was I to know that I wouldn't be allowed to play a Warden with that attitude, when the game gave me that option for the first several hours? Shepard doesn't have the option to not want to stop the Reapers, and that option is never presented. But in Origins, the game kept giving me options to say I didn't want to be a Warden and to be reluctant about it, than suddenly took that option away. If a game gives me the option to present a viewpoint, that suggests that it is a supported roleplaying option. It should not suddenly take that option away with no explanation or reasoning.
3 - I have already admitted this is based off the Origin I played. The other Origins have no effect on whether I enjoyed the game, because they were not part of my game. The fact that I could have gotten lucky and rolled an Origin that maybe/maybe didn't provided better motivation has no effect on what actually happened in the story presented when I played. I can't speak for other people's experience with different Origins, and I can't speak for whether my experience would have been different if I had chosen a different Origin. And if a game where all options were presented as equal, it's not good enough to say "but if you just chose the right origin and picked the right dialogue options your character would make more sense". How was I supposed to know what these "better" options were when all options were presented the same?
4 - Caring about how my clan would react is not caring about the clan. That's caring about myself and what will happen to me. There's no contradiction there. I would also say I care About whether Cory is going to kill me for the Anchor - That does not mean I care about Cory personally.
Okay, I see what you're saying about the option to RP as reluctant/unwilling to be a GW disappearing after the origin. Yes, that should have been continued throughout the game, along with other RP options present in all origins which stopped at Ostagar. That being said, I don't know how fun a game would be if every dialogue option I had included "why am I doing this? I don't want to be here!" It's a case where gameplay has to trump RP options. Because, as I've said, why are you playing a game if you don't want to follow the main plot?
And again I have to say, your perspective is skewed if you're basing the argument "DAO style origins would not work for DAI or other games" on one origin and only one RP perspective within that origin. You're saying that the game didn't allow you to RP a very specific viewpoint that most players probably aren't playing, and you decided not to care about the motivations the game provided you. That's your right as a player, but don't claim that the origins failed because they didn't meet your specific requirements. And if you haven't bothered to play the other five origins, you can't claim that the entire DAO origin system would not work for another game.
Of course not; the writers provide the blank slate and the options with which the player can define their character through and roleplay. It is therefore seen as being through the player the character is created rather than through the writers.
The Inquisitor and Revan are examples of characters whom the writers give to the player to create characterization for through options, dialogue and actions, provided by the writers.
I too think Thedas is a pretty interesting but I felt Inquisition did a plenty good job of showing it: I had no trouble creating characterization for my Inquisitor. True, not all of her characterization came to play but that has never happened before and I do not expect to be.
I did not feel like she was distached to the plot either. I did feel, however, there should have been more dialogue options.
My latter two paragraphs are not intended as slights towards you by the way. They are merely intending to show that I am of a different opinion and consider the matter to be a matter of personal taste.
I felt more detached with the Inquisitor because they were the same as 90% of RPG PCs: a blank slate who began the game at the exact same point the player did. We have poor context for why we're here, what's going on, who all of these people are. It doesn't work in a lore/setting heavy game; it feels like the PC is a player insert because we're both learning the same information at the same time. With an origin, we at least have prior knowledge of certain things. I liked how certain origins accessed codex entries before other origins did, showing that our character "knew" more about parts of Thedas than we would.
You can't make the Conclave playable without re-writing the entire game. The whole point of not playing through it is that you don't know what happened - were you chosen? Did Andraste save you? Who caused the explosion?
The scene plays different if the whole conversation at the start is:
Cassandra: "What happened!?"
Inquisitor: "Oh, well, the Grey Wardens and this talking darkspawn abomination used some magical orb to try and blow a hole through the Fade."
Cassandra: "Oh. Well, we better immediately get everyone on the same page about that one."
Cassandra: "People say Andraste saved you, and led you out of the Fade."Inquisitor: "Nope. Probably a spirit. Absolutely not Andraste."Cassandra: "Oh."
Alternatively, they could Trespasser it all, but then it's even dumber. You waste hours of game to reveal a plot that everyone already knows.
I think the point was that we would black out before reaching Justinia/Cory. We could still see the Fade echo at the Temple where we pick up the orb as we see Justinia and the shadowy figure to provide a little more context. But I do feel the in media res failed here because the player only finds out the backstory by pausing the game and reading the codex entries. That's a bad use of game mechanics to fill in the narrative.
I felt more detached with the Inquisitor because they were the same as 90% of RPG PCs: a blank slate who began the game at the exact same point the player did. We have poor context for why we're here, what's going on, who all of these people are. It doesn't work in a lore/setting heavy game; it feels like the PC is a player insert because we're both learning the same information at the same time. With an origin, we at least have prior knowledge of certain things. I liked how certain origins accessed codex entries before other origins did, showing that our character "knew" more about parts of Thedas than we would.
Agreed 100%. And the Origin approach doesn't prevent you from roleplaying properly and even self inserting. I feel some people fear the Origins style approach would force too much characterization on their character.
I personally hate when RPGs force too much characterization on my character, I even happen to enjoy blank state PCs like in TES but the problem here is context and presentation.
My canon run is a Rogue Trevelyan. Cool but I need to read World of Thedas and codex entries to have any clue about what Ostwick looks like, some general infos about my family and their involvment in the Conclave.
Having my character say to Josephine some passing comments on my previous life is all good but I could have had more details, context, and maybe roleplay opportunities during a pre-Conclave explosion introduction within the vicinity of the summit exclusive to the background I chose when starting the game.
If we go to Tevinter in the next game, I would prefer an Origins style approach so that we can be introduced to that country properly and our character doesn't feel too detached from the plot and lore but I know that there is a low chance of this happening.
This is sort of a digression but I'm kind of surprised people found Inquisition satisfying in terms of the exploitation of Thedas lore. I will just take Val Royeaux as an example. It's the biggest city in Southern Thedas, described and mentionned in the previous games and novels. The events that spurred the Mage/Templar war feature several important locations in this city. We don't get to see the White Spire, even from afar.
This is among many other things why I think Inquistion feels far less rounded and coherent than Origins.
That and the fact the main conflicts are resolved even before we have had time to immerse ourselves in said conflicts.
I think you might be confusing me with someone else? I've never said anything about the entire Origin system not working in another game. I've only said the way it was done in Origins was bad, based off the origin I've picked.
My specific requirements are making me care about the plot. Every other Bioware game I have played has not had this problem with me, so I do not feel that I am being overly fussy here.
Also, the big openings in recent Bioware games tend to be a poor fit for the tutorial elements.
My question was unclear. It's OK to not like the amnesia mechanic. But why did you give up on doing the thing the mechanic was there to do? If using amnesia is a crutch, show us how to do it without the crutch.Because amnesia is a godawful writing crutch that no half-decent writer should use simply for the purpose of making reveals more convenient, that's why.
And DA:I didn't use amnesia to make a reveal convenient - it wasn't about the reveal. It was about providence. I agree that Bioware doesn't necessarily need to have amnesia to make the providence aspect work, but the game has to be completely re-written once you cut it.
The amnesia had nothing to do with "providence". It was there specifically to conceal that the Grey Wardens were assisting Corypheus so that they could reveal it "dramatically" later. That is the ONLY reason your character had amnesia. Nothing needed to be re-written, they just needed to NOT show you that the Grey Wardens were there with Corypheus.
The "providence" aspect comes in with the different INTERPRETATIONS of what happened--none of which were in the slightest bit caused or affected by the Inquisitor's amnesia.
That's just confused. There's no reason to have it be Grey Wardens in the scene if that's what they were worried about revealing.
The Grey Wardens being at the Conclave led to the Hawke/Warden argument in the Fade, and was another example of Cory's influence over tainted people. Granted, it's not explained why the mages and templars just accepted random GW mages coming to the Conclave since they had no interest in the outcome. And it could have been Venatori mages disguised as Circle mages instead, but one would think that at least someone in the Conclave would ID all mages before allowing them entrance. The Wardens are at least able to be identified. Given how puppet-like they are when we meet Erimond, someone should have noticed they were just walking meatbags, but that's another issue.
Yes I would have liked a shorter say roughly around the 30 minute mark 'Origin' for the Inquisitor. Perhaps whilst actually at the conclave where you meet some important people in your Inquisitor's life, say...
Other family members for the Trevelyan Human.
A couple other clan members who came to spy with you as an Elf.
Other Carta members who came to spy with you as a Dwarf.
Some other key members of the mercenary band you belong to as a Vashoth.
Then you do a couple of short errands before getting an "investigate strange noise" option and boom! Something happens offscreen and suddenly we're in the Fade watching the original opening scene as the Inky-to-be escapes the Fade.
The Grey Wardens being at the Conclave led to the Hawke/Warden argument in the Fade, and was another example of Cory's influence over tainted people. Granted, it's not explained why the mages and templars just accepted random GW mages coming to the Conclave since they had no interest in the outcome. And it could have been Venatori mages disguised as Circle mages instead, but one would think that at least someone in the Conclave would ID all mages before allowing them entrance. The Wardens are at least able to be identified. Given how puppet-like they are when we meet Erimond, someone should have noticed they were just walking meatbags, but that's another issue.
Yeah, but it would be trivial to have the Hawke/Warden argument be about something else. I mean, we can't seriously be considering that the design history was that writing that argument led Bio to put GWs at the Conclave, which then led to the PC's memory loss.
Yeah. But the second part of my post also suggests that at least the Grey Wardens are easy to identify, rather than Venatori spies who would soon be discovered not to be part of any Southern Circle. The rebel mages in Redcliffe won't know who all of the mages in Southern Circles are, so it makes sense Venatori spies can infiltrate their ranks. But if the mage and templar leadership has any intelligence (a big if, I realize), then they would only admit people to the Conclave who were registered in the Circle rosters. Otherwise any random apostate or blood mage could enter just because they show magical talent.
At least Grey Warden mages used to be in Circles before being conscripted, so I would think the Circles still retain their identities even after they join the order.
But then Corypheus just uses templars rather than Venatori, doesn't he?
Why would you choose character background options, without actually reading what those options are? Especially in an RPG where these things are usually important.
Well, I'm sure I've read it the first time I played the game back when it was first released and forgot it. After the first game I just click away until I get into the action.
What was wrong with the DAI tutorial part?
Well, from one point of view, it's really jarring that your character is learning to fight from scratch (even more so for the companions), with barely any starting abilities. Not that this is specific to DA:I. It's jarring especially if you're a mage or a qunari since you should already be trained and able, and it's conversely jarring to have a character with no combat training be so gifted in it so fast (if that's the case. It's not clear if all the backgrounds have combat training).
Well, from one point of view, it's really jarring that your character is learning to fight from scratch (even more so for the companions), with barely any starting abilities. Not that this is specific to DA:I. It's jarring especially if you're a mage or a qunari since you should already be trained and able, and it's conversely jarring to have a character with no combat training be so gifted in it so fast (if that's the case. It's not clear if all the backgrounds have combat training).
Well... 
.
Player =/= Character...
Well, that's where we differ then. For me, the origin part hardly establishes anything of how I play my warden later on.
The role-play aspect is only part of the reason for the origins in DAO. Each origin, as well as its attached plot later on, introduces the new player to these various aspects of Thedosian culture: both noble and casteless dwarf, both city and dalish elf, the confined life of a mage, the privilege of the human noble. DAO says, "This is Thedas, and these are her people."
I'm not a fan of the origins myself, but I can't discount their value in teaching me, the player, about those parts of the Dragon Age universe from a more personal perspective, rather than being told about them by some third party.
I generally won't work up anything too detailed for a character myself. OTOH, that doesn't mean that I need the writers to spoon-feed me a background in order to care about my PC.
I save most of the RP stuff for a second play. It doesn't make sense to me to develop a grand backstory when I don't know how things will be presented in the game. For DAI specifically, the game where I was able to RP the best out of the three, I had to play through an Inquisitor first in order to decide what kind of inquisitor I wanted to be... if that makes sense (probably not). But I knew I would likely be playing again even before I started my first play, so I went into it with that mindset.
Even with the above, I still prefer having as bare bones information as possible. I can give a clear example. For the non-mage Trevelyan, the tarot states that the youngest child goes into Chantry service as a family tradition. It seems to me that if they had a prologue that that background would be more filled out, with the Trevelyan PC being slated to join the templars, or a new templar recruit, or something along those lines. While the templar specialization is for warriors as a game element, there are rogue templars and they even have their own model in DAI. But what if I didn't want that for my PC? What if I wanted his parents to procrastinate in order to keep him around? Having that bare information allowed that to be my choice.
That's one reason why a City Elf in DAO never made it past the origin story. I found the idea of them being sufficiently gifted in combat to be the HoF too far-fetched.
Well to be fair the game suggests you had some training from your mother. Secret training I would say cause CE are forbidden to wield weapons. Not that this would totally prevent crime and fighting. Weaponless peasants still had Jacqueries regularly. Prisoners in our world are not supposed to have weapons but murders and violence still happens within prisons walls.
Even with the above, I still prefer having as bare bones information as possible. I can give a clear example. For the non-mage Trevelyan, the tarot states that the youngest child goes into Chantry service as a family tradition. It seems to me that if they had a prologue that that background would be more filled out, with the Trevelyan PC being slated to join the templars, or a new templar recruit, or something along those lines. While the templar specialization is for warriors as a game element, there are rogue templars and they even have their own model in DAI. But what if I didn't want that for my PC? What if I wanted his parents to procrastinate in order to keep him around? Having that bare information allowed that to be my choice.
I don't see how having a pre-Conclave explosion prologue would have necessarily forced a choice regarding the link your family have with the Chantry.
I could easily imagine a conversation happening with one of the guards of your delegation where you can choose the following:
--------------------------
Guard:
Damn! Pardon me my Lady/Lord but Haven is so cold! I'm even beginning to miss Ostwick rain (possible info about Ostwick, coastal city)
PC:
1. At least the snow is pretty
2. You're as charming as ever
3. Quit complaining
4. This is a freezing dump (well you can say this to Josephine, but you could say it TWICE)
5. Etc...
--------------------------
Guard:
LOOK. They hired QUNARI mercenaries, Chantry is really out of its mind (info about Ostwick, known to have historically repelled many Qunari invasions)
PC Reactions ....
---------------------------
Guard:
I can't believe you accepted the trip (...)
PC:
1. Wasn't like I had a choice
2. Try to enjoy it
3. Higlights again how duty bound they are to their family
4. Etc
--------------------------
Guard:
Anyway, I doubt the Sparklers and Templars will agree on things, but maybe this trip will prove useful to you.
PC:
1. My templar training is beginning soon/occasion to meet some of the Templar hierarchy (Templar PC)
2. Lending a hand THIS time so that my parents continue financing my lavish lifestyle (Non-Templar, Slacker PC)
3. I have duties towards my family (Non-Templar PC, invested in defending family interest)
4. Mommy and Daddy will be happy enough I get home safe and sound (Sheltered PC)
5. Add more options....
---------------------------
Those are just examples, and proper writers (which I'm certainly NOT if you didn't guess 
) would provide far better dialogues
I already expect people to come out and say BUT THIS TAKES TOO MANY RESOURCES ...YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW WRITING WORKS IN THE GAME (which is true, I don't know their process and I'm no writer)
But that's more or less what I want to see regarding roleplay opportunities in a summit prologue. It doesn't even need to be very long. You don't even have to meet too many family members (thus not defining too much things) and the dialogue could quickly move on to expressing your character feelings towards the Conclave and its possible outcome (which is more plot related and neutral rather than background related). Have the opportunity to meet the Chantry representative of the Free Marches cities who can give you more infos while gushing about Justinia, see Chantry folks doing business on the side with shifty Dawrves, scared mages, whinny mages etc...
And Grumpy guard could have been part of a sidequest later, turns out he survived because he was out in the forest, drunk out of his mind and you decide what to do with him as Inquisitor.
I think those kind of options give plenty of choice regarding the PC characterization.
^ Well yes, I prefer to have as little pre-defined as possible and your examples are swell. However, there are a lot of people in this very thread stating that one thing they liked about the DAO origins was that personal connection.
I really dislike thinking along these lines, but I don't have much faith that Bioware will be able to deliver those kinds of character-oriented RP choices that you gave examples of, or if they do, to have those choices be any more significant than a variant response by some NPC. I certainly don't require dramatic sweeping arcs or plot differences based on player choice or origin, but it would be nice to have a specific quest or two related to that where the player can have sufficient RP input AND have those choice be acknowledged by the followers or other NPCs.
In DAI, the elf Inquisitor could very well have their entire clan wiped out on the war table and, as far as I know, there is no chance to emote about this, nor do any followers remark on it. I think that is a great shame, and I didn't even play an elf.
In DAI, the elf Inquisitor could very well have their entire clan wiped out on the war table and, as far as I know, there is no chance to emote about this, nor do any followers remark on it. I think that is a great shame, and I didn't even play an elf.
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