1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

Exactly.  What he means is "relateable to me and people like me".  Because a group of 9 friends including 4 bisexuals is relateable to many people.  But because that number isn't the biggest number, then it's "unbelievable" and "unrealistic".

 

And, just to clarify, I totally get the "relateable to me and people like me" thing.  It's how the world works.  But call a spade a spade and say it outright instead of trying to mask it with BS "statistics" explanations.

Those statistics are real, not bullshit. Relateable to the majority is what I was going for, and just because some here are more easily able to accept such unrealism, doesn't make much difference. It's not exactly coincidental that people who can are in this forum after all, given what Bioware's audience is.

[Colonelkillabee]

Hey dude I mostly agree with you on DA:I's approach being better. It's just the other stuff that you say that I don't necessarily agree with.

That's perfectly fine.

[Colonelkillabee]

Those statistics are real, not bullshit. Relateable to the majority is what I was going for, and just because some here are more easily able to accept such unrealism, doesn't make much difference. It's not exactly coincidental that people who can are in this forum after all, given what Bioware's audience is.

And if we're calling a spade a spade, then you're doing what I'm doing in reverse, except you're using personal experience rather than actual probability. And I'll leave it at that.

[Addictress]

I prefer sexuality to not be a major focus on Bioware games. I prefer the DA2 approach where people can silenty just romance whoever they want, and no one brings up their sexual orientation. You can headcannon everyone's sexual orientation. If you are a male Hawke and flirt with Anders, and romance Anders, you headcannon he is gay.

 

Sexuality is such a non-issue in Thedas it's not even worth mentioning. Although some will way, "realistically, people have boundaries. Identity is a major part of a character and it is unrealistic to expect every character to be any sexuality you wish, because sexual identity is as much a part of a character as distrust of mages or Andrastianism."

 

I don't know, there are two levels of character-building:

 

Character elements as relate directly to the politics and lore of the fictional universe

More biological and basic character elements which would be the same for our world and for Thedas.

 

In the first layer, Fenris' character element having to do with slavery in Tevinter is a bit more Thedas-specific. So yes, that should be explicitly defined.

Anders' hatred of the Circle and mage-rebellion aspect is Thedas-specific.

 

Sexuality is something so fundamental and raw, it's not as Thedas-specific. So I think it would not be incongruous to hide the sexuality and make it a silent player-headcannon element of character-building.

[Battlebloodmage]

Glad you're enjoying the show, but I'm gonna let it end lest the thread gets burned again. Already stated my opinion, others don't agree, that's fine. But I think at least some of us can agree that it's far better to have what DAI did, and include at least a few characters of several demographics, rather than just shove everyone under the same sexuality as if one size fits all. That might work for Skyrim, but Skyrim isn't exactly a game where you focus on your character's interaction with other characters. Marriage and "romance" is a tacked on feature. Dragon Age practically revolves around your interactions, romantic or not with other characters, and for a game like that, it's important that characters feel like actual people, and to me, having all the romanceable characters but one be whatever you want them to be makes them feel less real, compared to DAI where we had actual gay and straights, and actual bi characters.

Was DAI better though? I agree that I prefer DAI approach better than DA2 IF it was done correctly, but I find it implemented very poorly, they consciously avoid making certain characters gay or bi like Solas because he may be a depraved bisexual when it shouldn't be the problem if there are other options to counterbalance it. They consciously make the gay character about gay conversion, no string attached sex, hide his sexuality from the public, basically all the negative stereotypes combined into one, they subconsciously make the bisexual option to once again be a promiscuous guy who prefer the girls. I would agree that set sexuality is preferred if they actually give the gay guys the straight female options. I said it as tongue in cheeks, meaning that a character is romantic and fluffy, at the same time, is an average everyday guy where his sexuality is not a defining characteristic of him. Just write a character for females and make them guy, and see how it turns out. Once again, tongue in cheeks. Yeah, as long as they can do gay characters properly, then I'd prefer sexual orientation, so I'm actually agreeing with you. I was only said bisexuals because they can't handle set sexuality correctly, and even in the all bi options, they still screw it up.

[Battlebloodmage]

And if we're calling a spade a spade, then you're doing what I'm doing in reverse, except you're using personal experience rather than actual probability. And I'll leave it at that.

Are you replying to yourself?

[Lady Artifice]

Those statistics are real, not bullshit. Relateable to the majority is what I was going for, and just because some here are more easily able to accept such unrealism, doesn't make much difference. It's not exactly coincidental that people who can are in this forum after all, given what Bioware's audience is.

 

The problem is that statistics apply only to randomized groups. As soon as a group comes together socially, they're ineligible for that sort of generalized probability. Tallying groups of friends and expecting them to be comparable to population averages demonstrates an unwillingness to recognize how statistics actually work.

[Addictress]

It's also good because I'm sure a lot of male players would've liked to romance Solas. Who wouldn't? *swoon* If we sexuality were a silent character element, and we could've romanced whoever we wished, Solas would've been equal opportunity. 

 

I pity the males Lavellans.

[Battlebloodmage]

While this could be achieved with bisexual, I kinda like a certain story telling you could achieve with sexual orientations, like maybe even with a bi-curious character who may be married to a woman or only dated girls, could be because it's normal or what society expects. He didn't think he could fall in love with a guy. I'm not sure if Bioware would ever want to get that complex though, most bi characters in Bioware games are pretty much the same between male and female protagonist while only have a preference for females. It's not a problem if they have a preference, but it's every single game, and if someone who has never mentioned guys before maybe even be surprised themselves that they could feel that way about another guy. 

[Illyria]

I prefer sexuality to not be a major focus on Bioware games. I prefer the DA2 approach where people can silenty just romance whoever they want, and no one brings up their sexual orientation. You can headcannon everyone's sexual orientation. If you are a male Hawke and flirt with Anders, and romance Anders, you headcannon he is gay.

 

Please no.

 

Anders is bisexual.  He's slept with Bela, flirts happily with Velanna and Nathaniel, had a relationship with Karl.

 

Bisexuality is not a 'stage' in getting to gay or straight.

[Illyria]

Are you replying to yourself?

 

The Colonel has run out of people to argue with and as a result must argue with himself.

[Colonelkillabee]

Was DAI better though? I agree that I prefer DAI approach better than DA2 IF it was done correctly, but I find it implemented very poorly, they consciously avoid making certain characters gay or bi like Solas because he may be a depraved bisexual when it shouldn't be the problem if there are other options to counterbalance it. They consciously make the gay character about gay conversion, no string attached sex, hide his sexuality from the public, basically all the negative stereotypes combined into one, the subconsciously make the bisexual option to once again be a promiscuous guy who prefer the girls. I would agree that set sexuality is preferred if they actually give the gay guys the straight female options. I said it as tongue in cheeks, meaning that a character is romantic and fluffy, at the same time, is an average everyday guy where his sexuality is not a defining characteristic of him. Just write a character for females and make them guy, and see how it turns out. Once again, tongue in cheeks. Yeah, as long as they can do gay characters properly, then I'd prefer sexual orientation, so I'm actually agreeing with you. I was only said bisexuals because they can't handle set sexuality correctly, and even in the all bi options, they still screw it up.

While I agree that they should just make a character whatever sexuality they want to make them, assuming the reasons are specific to that character, and not for convenience, etc, you have to admit, there'd be a big hoobla when people found out that their precious Solas who happened to be bi was now the villain of the story, specifically for that depraved bisexual stereotype. A stereotype I didn't honestly even notice until it was pointed out, but is indeed all over the place. So I have mixed feelings about learning their reasoning for that, but I blame the community as a whole. From Mass Effect's ending, though justified, and DA 2's very outspoken complaints, the fanbase hasn't exactly been gentle in their backlash. But that's the nature of the beast. Do you want the devs to listen to your complaints? I do, so I and others have to accept that this means they're gonna be self aware in what they do, which is to me a good thing despite characters not being who they were supposed to be because the devs were afraid of the outcry.

 

Everything is practically a double edged sword.

 

But I too agree with you, they're far from perfect at the moment, and DA I was definitely still not ideal. Especially with Iron Bull. But, it's moving in the right direction. Problem is I think they're competing with the desire to make characters more diverse, avoid stereotypes, ones that would get a big enough backlash anyway, but also trying to sell a game, and unfortunately for that goal, sex sells. And for every person that complains about Iron Bull's extreme promiscuity, there's probably several that love it.

[Colonelkillabee]

Are you replying to yourself?

Rofl just a continuation

[Addictress]

Please no.

 

Anders is bisexual.  He's slept with Bela, flirts happily with Velanna and Nathaniel, had a relationship with Karl.

 

Bisexuality is not a 'stage' in getting to gay or straight.

I'm not saying it is.  I personally did not see those flirtations you reference. And I don't have a problem with them.

 

The player can headcannon he is bisexual for all I care.

[susanwb]

 

Sexuality is such a non-issue in Thedas it's not even worth mentioning.

 

Actually, I don't believe that's true.  There are in-game references that refute this statement - notably the Brother Genitivi book you find in the Emerald Graves.  In SOME societies in Thedas, it's a non-issue.  Notably Orlais, where being gay is just seen as an interesting personality quirk.  But it clearly is a big deal in Tevinter, especially among the nobility.  In Fereldan they're quietly accepting as long as you're discreet.  I'm not sure what the situation is in the Free Marches, but I'd guess that like everything else there, they have a wide variety of opinions, since Marchers can't seem to agree on much of anything except their fierce independence.

 

So Dorian's "stereotypical" story makes sense in-world, because of where he's from.  He'd have had a totally different life if he were born in Orlais.  That just adds to the sadness of his story.

[Addictress]

And NO, don't go saying "omg you want to DENY Anders is bi. He is bi. Fact"

 

Okay fine. God. I know where you're going.

 

If anything, it's not that I want to *hide* sexuality and avoid confronting the reality of sexual identity. If anything, I just feel sad for players who can't romance who they want to romance. And NO, I don't want to be RAPEY and be like "omg every character should say YES."

 

No, I think players should be rejected, too, but on the grounds of decisions they make in the game, and based on their personality.

[daveliam]

The problem is that statistics apply only to randomized groups. As soon as a group comes together socially, they're ineligible for that sort of generalized probability. Tallying groups of friends and expecting them to be comparable to population averages demonstrates an unwillingness to recognize how statistics actually work.

 

And the kind of representational proportions that he's using as his basis for why it's "unrealistic" and "unbelievable" only apply to large sample sizes.  Using that logic for a small group that comes together socially demonstrates not only an unwillingness to recognize how statistics actually work, but a fundamental lack of understanding of it.

[Illyria]

I'm not saying it is.  I personally did not see those flirtations you reference. And I don't have a problem with them.

 

The player can headcannon he is bisexual for all I care.

 

There's no headcanon.  Anders (and Fenris, Merrill and Bela) are all canonically bisexual.

 

I'm sorry if I came off as rude it's just...

 

I see bisexuality being used as an excuse to headcanon a character to be whatever the player wants too often in this fandom (and other fandoms) and I'm tired of it.

[Jedi Comedian]

I prefer sexuality to not be a major focus on Bioware games. I prefer the DA2 approach where people can silenty just romance whoever they want, and no one brings up their sexual orientation. You can headcannon everyone's sexual orientation. If you are a male Hawke and flirt with Anders, and romance Anders, you headcannon he is gay.

Sexuality is such a non-issue in Thedas it's not even worth mentioning. Although some will way, "realistically, people have boundaries. Identity is a major part of a character and it is unrealistic to expect every character to be any sexuality you wish, because sexual identity is as much a part of a character as distrust of mages or Andrastianism."

I don't know, there are two levels of character-building:

Character elements as relate directly to the politics and lore of the fictional universe
More biological and basic character elements which would be the same for our world and for Thedas.

In the first layer, Fenris' character element having to do with slavery in Tevinter is a bit more Thedas-specific. So yes, that should be explicitly defined.
Anders' hatred of the Circle and mage-rebellion aspect is Thedas-specific.

Sexuality is something so fundamental and raw, it's not as Thedas-specific. So I think it would not be incongruous to hide the sexuality and make it a silent player-headcannon element of character-building.

This. If I made the DAI LIs they would be: Cass, Josie, Cullen and Solas, available to everyone (well Solas for Elves only).

[Lady Artifice]

I'm not saying it is.  I personally did not see those flirtations you reference. And I don't have a problem with them.

 

The player can headcannon he is bisexual for all I care.

 

That isn't a headcanon, though. It's the way the character is written. It's factual that in any world state, Anders has sexual and romantic involvement with characters of both genders.

[Addictress]

There's no headcanon.  Anders (and Fenris, Merrill and Bela) are all canonically bisexual.

 

I'm sorry if I came off as rude it's just...

 

I see bisexuality being used as an excuse to headcanon a character to be whatever the player wants too often in this fandom (and other fandoms) and I'm tired of it.

bisexuality is a serious, solid identity. Just as being gay is, just as being straight is, just as being pansexual is.

 

I want all of those to be fair game for head cannon.

[Witch Cocktor]

Please no.

 

Anders is bisexual.  He's slept with Bela, flirts happily with Velanna and Nathaniel, had a relationship with Karl.

 

Bisexuality is not a 'stage' in getting to gay or straight.

This.

 

And not only that, when you say '' all LIs should be open to everyone and people can headcanon them as they like '' well that cuts into a lot of possible banter and character history. What do they find attractive in a person, have they had any previous partners, who do they flirt with, do they find any of the other companions attractive? If everyone should be allowed to be headcanon'd a different sexuality based on what the player likes, you can't make them show any attraction to anyone else than the PC, and they should never had any other relationships except the one with the PC (nor should possible prior relationships come even in discussion, which is a restriction itself when it comes to making characters). AND THAT is just selfish.

 

This dude you are romancing as a woman flirts with a man? Well, not straight anymore.

This dude you are romancing as a man likes women and shows open attraction to them? Well, not gay anymore.

 

I really don't want a bunch of LIs that only have sexualities when you are around, thank you very much.

[Addictress]

That isn't a headcanon, though. It's the way the character is written. It's factual that in any world state, Anders sexual and romantic involvement with characters of both genders.

lol i pre-empted all you guys look up.

[Colonelkillabee]

And NO, don't go saying "omg you want to DENY Anders is bi. He is bi. Fact"

 

Okay fine. God. I know where you're going.

 

If anything, it's not that I want to *hide* sexuality and avoid confronting the reality of sexual identity. If anything, I just feel sad for players who can't romance who they want to romance. And NO, I don't want to be RAPEY and be like "omg every character should say YES."

 

No, I think players should be rejected, too, but on the grounds of decisions they make in the game, and based on their personality.

I get where you're coming from but that's life, sometimes people get rejected for things that they can't control. This is a videogame and is meant for the entertainment of everyone of course, but even with that goal, not everyone can be catered to, nor do I think they should try to cater to everyone. After all, people can just make a character that is able to romance the character they want if they want it bad enough. That's what some did for Sera, and what others did for Dorian. Which adds some replayability as well.

[Battlebloodmage]

While I agree that they should just make a character whatever sexuality they want to make them, assuming the reasons are specific to that character, and not for convenience, etc, you have to admit, there'd be a big hoobla when people found out that their precious Solas who happened to be bi was now the villain of the story, specifically for that depraved bisexual stereotype. A stereotype I didn't honestly even notice until it was pointed out, but is indeed all over the place. So I have mixed feelings about learning their reasoning for that, but I blame the community as a whole. From Mass Effect's ending, though justified, and DA 2's very outspoken complaints, the fanbase hasn't exactly been gentle in their backlash. But that's the nature of the beast. Do you want the devs to listen to your complaints? I do, so I and others have to accept that this means they're gonna be self aware in what they do, which is to me a good thing despite characters not being who they were supposed to be because the devs were afraid of the outcry.

 

Everything is practically a double edged sword.

 

But I too agree with you, they're far from perfect at the moment, and DA I was definitely still not ideal. Especially with Iron Bull. But, it's moving in the right direction. Problem is I think they're competing with the desire to make characters more diverse, avoid stereotypes, ones that would get a big enough backlash anyway, but also trying to sell a game, and unfortunately for that goal, sex sells. And for every person that complains about Iron Bull's extreme promiscuity, there's probably several that love it.

There is no problem with promiscuity, actually, I like that kind of characters. The problem is that they're always bisexual, it would actually give in to the stereotype of they're bisexual because they're greedy or that they will be attracted to anything that move. I don't see why the promiscuous guy couldn't be straight. When all the promiscuous characters are bisexuals, that's the problem, not that there's anything wrong with promiscuity and sleeping around.

 

I don't see how Solas being a depraved bisexual has anything to do with DA2, as evidence in this thread, many people don't even consider him to be a villain and just misguided. I consider him to be a bad guy and would knife him the next time I see him. I was just bringing to the attention that they consciously avoid certain stereotypes but they forgot that subconsciously their characters fall into certain stereotypes. Let's say why could Blackwall be gay and why could Iron Bull be straight? They describe Iron Bull as someone who would have sex with anyone that doesn't break from his sex. Basically, it has nothing to do with his sexuality, but it's because he just want to stick it in anything that can handle him. Considering the offer they give straight females, they romantic and sometimes angst but very romantic is the main point, people like Alistair, straight up adorkable, prince charming Sebastian, Knight in Shining Armor Cullen, angsty god Solas. These kinds of romantic archetypes you often see in fanfic and romantic novels for women may actually be appealing to gay guys, too, just as masculine females may be something lesbians would be into, but they may avoid it because it may fall into the butch territory.