1188 réponses à ce sujet

[susanwb]

I honestly don't understand that.  I mean, canonically Thedas is a mostly matriarchal world.

True, but there are enough references to rape in DA:I that I still feel that isn't quite as progressive a place as people would like to believe it is.

[Colonelkillabee]

The thing is, who do you think would appreciate these kinds of stories? The gay gamers who play videogames who want to escape the harsh reality of them being looked down by society to go into a game where they also being treated as disgusting? These kinds of story have been told many times throughout many media, I'm sure gay guys just want to be treated as normal at this point or not being reminded of how harsh their life is. The homophobes talking about what a SJW game this is? People with mental trauma like abuse don't want to be reminded constantly that it happens to them. It's actually more progressive to have a world where being gay is just as normal as being straight, it's actually sending a stronger message than how terrible it is to be gay.

Not everyone that calls Dragon Age an SJW series is a homophobe. Being progressive isn't what makes it sjw, it's how they respond to anyone that doesn't see things the way they do, or are unhappy with their portrayals of things. People were calling others homophobes just for not liking DA 2 back in the day, because they just assumed it had something to do with an lgbt character and not maybe the actual game and story issues it had. People even claimed you were a homophobe if you had an issue with Anders getting mad when you rejected him just because you weren't into men. Then there's how they respond to criticisms of Krem, where people thought he wasn't very well written and just put in for the sake of inclusiveness.

 

People call it an sjw series for the fandom as well as how devs sometimes respond to criticism. And it is.

[Battlebloodmage]

Morrigan.

She has a ulterior motive for sleeping with the Warden. Outside of that, she doesn't hit on everything that move and is disgusted by most of the male cast.

[Hellion Rex]

Okay, but Ferelden pretty much worships dogs and yet '******' is an insult?

 

I don't get that.

 

EDIT:

 

I mean 'term referring to a female dog' is an insult.

Lol, I don't know what to tell you. It is quite puzzling.

[Addictress]

headcanoning away a character's sexuality is disgusting. it's primarily a way of imposing the player's whims and standards on the character. it's power fantasy taken to new and grosser levels.

That's why I said I don't want to be "rapey" and imply everyone should say yes. I think the player should still be rejected, but based on what they do and say.

 

Secondly, there are two layers of characterization and identity. Fenris' identity layer dealing with Tevinter slavery is Thedas- specific. His sexual identity is not Thedas-specific and is a more raw, fundamental layer of character which could be headcannoned for the sake of prioritizing the explicit expression of his Thedas-specific layer.

 

However, you can argue that sexuality is more Thedas-specific. In which case, I would have to withdraw this argument.

[Illyria]

True, but there are enough references to rape in DA:I that I still feel that isn't quite as progressive a place as people would like to believe it is.

 

I know.  I mean, I can't understand why it's not a more progessive world in terms of gender.  A lot of the gendered slurs used contridict what we're told about women in canon.

[Addictress]

It's not just flirtation. It's just plain simply talk about love, passion, sex, attraction.

Only way headcanoning characters as gay, bi or straight could work if there was no talk to anything about sex (or love?) ever.

 

If DA:I was '' bi/playersexual  and all LIs were designed to be headcanon'd as what you want them to be ''

 

Sera and Bull talking about breasts? No.

Sera fawning over qunari women? No.

Sera x Dagna? No.

Varric encouraging Blackwall to talk to Josephine? No.

Blackwall's and Josephine's (fleeting?) crush on one another? No.

Iron Bull talking about Solas banging fade ladies? No.

Iron Bull hitting on Cassandra? No.

Iron Bull hitting on/romancing Dorian? No.

Iron Bull paying a prostitute to pleasure Cole? No.

Iron Bull in general? No.

Dorian's personal quest? No. (good riddance tho)

Cole x that bard? No.

Cole reading Dorian's mind and talking about his feelings for some Rilenius(?) fellow? No.

Varric asking about Cassandra's conquests and men she has loved? No.

 

 

All that would have to be gutted. Which is a bit sad since I like when my companions talk about subjects like this. It gives them character, personality and they seem more fleshed out, like people. 

Unfortunately, all those things you listed were the weaker aspects of DAI imo... and I found DAI to be a very weak game. I think DAI would have been better if all those things you listed - yes, it is a very long list - had been replaced with Thedas-specific lore-type banter.

[Witch Cocktor]

Unfortunately, all those things you listed were the weaker aspects of DAI imo... and I found DAI to be a very weak game. I think DAI would have been better if all those things you listed - yes, it is a very long list - had been replaced with Thedas-specific lore-type banter.

 

Oh, okay. I completely disagree, to the point of disgust.

[susanwb]

It is that world because of the stories the writers want to tell, especially in relation to Tevinter, where they establish a homophobic environment to accommodate Dorian's story. Nothing about the book of Thedas mentioning anything about Thedas being intolerance toward homosexuality. Instead, they should have made a world where everyone were treated as normal. I'm still pretty bitter about Asari not lesbians, 2 whole games not having gay then the last game was a cutdown version of femShep and an NPC, but still for what it's worth, Steve was a good gay character despite his NPC status. 

 

I get it.  You wish that Bioware had not crafted Thedas in the way they did.  But, they did.  It is what it is.  We can argue about what Thedas could have or should have been, and you will probably find that my opinion is not much different from yours.  My point is just that the post that I replied to stated that sexuality is a non-issue in Thedas, and I think that is not canonically true for all Thedas' societies.

[Malthier]

I try, lol.

 

youre from the U.S. south, right mate?

 

i know some places that might shock some of your perceptions away

[Illyria]

Unfortunately, all those things you listed were the weaker aspects of DAI imo... and I found DAI to be a very weak game. I think DAI would have been better if all those things you listed - yes, it is a very long list - had been replaced with Thedas-specific lore-type banter.

 

But doesn't that run the risk of info dumping?

 

People talking about the people they like is part of their character.  Not everything on that list is something I wanted to hear (Cole/Marydem?  No thank you.  Thankfully she hooks up with Krem in my canon) but I still like having it there.

[Battlebloodmage]

I know.  I mean, I can't understand why it's not a more progessive world in terms of gender.  A lot of the gendered slurs used contridict what we're told about women in canon.

They're using real world words, I guess. To be fair, I also see a fair number of people using that word as an empowerment. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Yes, his promiscuity in relation to him being bi, but why couldn't his promiscuity couldn't be in relation to him being straight? There's nothing wrong with promiscuity, but they have one promiscuous bisexual in each game is a pattern, not a coincidence. They have yet had a promiscuous straight character yet. This thread is mainly to point out the archetypes they have had so far in these games. Remember that they make the characters first before assigning the sexuality, so they see a promiscuous character, they assign him to be bisexual, creating a promiscuous bisexual pattern in every game. 

 

I don't see how Solas being a bisexual would create a backlash. I don't see anyone making a connection between a bisexual with him being evil. The reason is because these types of characters haven't done before, there are straight evil characters like Morrigan. There are other gay/bi characters to counterbalance it out. 

I dunno, I'd have been fine with him being a really big straight hound dog. I mean, I'd still find him banging every female that wants to in poor taste, especially with the supposed issue the people of thedas have with Qunari kinda being swept under the rug for the sake of him being a hound dog everywhere. But I have no issue with them making a straight person slutty. I'm guessing the reasoning is they want to sell sex to as many people as possible.

 

I never made the connection, but apparently people think that an evil character is more depraved if they're "evil" and also bisexual. I don't see it but I see enough of people talking about such stereotypes here and elsewhere that I get why Bioware avoided doing this with Solas. It's not even that he'd be the "depraved bisexual", it's that the "depraved" and "evil" part would have come as a surprise, and I'm sure a lot of people, even if not even most might feel slighted for it.

 

In other words, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were the reaction. Still, I'm in favor of Bioware having some balls in the future.

[susanwb]

I know.  I mean, I can't understand why it's not a more progessive world in terms of gender.  A lot of the gendered slurs used contridict what we're told about women in canon.

Exactly.

[Addictress]

But doesn't that run the risk of info dumping?

 

People talking about the people they like is part of their character.  Not everything on that list is something I wanted to hear (Cole/Marydem?  No thank you.  Thankfully she hooks up with Krem in my canon) but I still like having it there.

Info dumping would be like locking your head into a cut scene and stating factually events and circumstances which would've been better as interactive content elsewhere. Not floating party banter which you don't necessarily have to listen to, coming out at random times during travel. 

 

I thought the BEST party banter was in DA2, between Anders and Fenris. It provided a lot of context behind the different opinions from real citizens of Thedas on the mage-templar war.

[Catilina]

youre from the U.S. south, right mate?

 

i know some places that might shock some of your perceptions away

I see a stereotype!

[Addictress]

Oh, okay. I completely disagree, to the point of disgust.

The first time I played DAI in December 2014 I literally wanted to puke

[Colonelkillabee]

youre from the U.S. south, right mate?

 

i know some places that might shock some of your perceptions away

California, New York off the top of my head. I'm well aware some places in and out of the U.S. have areas that are more "progressive". Thedas does too, Orlais. If that happened in Orlais, I'd be less surprised. Kirkwall doesn't really say much about their opinion on such things outside of a brothel. Like I said, I didn't say it was impossible, but to me even if probable, it's clear they treated their sexuality as a convenience for the player, regardless of the probability of such a group coming to pass. That, above everything is what gets me.

[Sylvianus]

headcanoning away a character's sexuality is disgusting. it's primarily a way of imposing the player's whims and standards on the character. it's power fantasy taken to new and grosser levels.

 

Not only that. It also forces the writting to say the least about the sexual experience of the character, so we couldn't break the precious headcanon of some so delicate and sensible who can't deal with a character having preferences. That kind of writting can only remove a lot of potential. The romance of Dorian couldn't be the same at all and as much developped with that kind of system. 

 

It's less about the character, and more about the player. 

[Witch Cocktor]

The first time I played DAI in December 2014 I literally wanted to puke

Your choice, I've been playing DA:I fanatically for the past 4-5 months. 

[Battlebloodmage]

I dunno, I'd have been fine with him being a really big straight hound dog. I mean, I'd still find him banging every female that wants to in poor taste, especially with the supposed issue the people of thedas have with Qunari kinda being swept under the rug for the sake of him being a hound dog everywhere. But I have no issue with them making a straight person slutty. I'm guessing the reasoning is they want to sell sex to as many people as possible.

 

I never made the connection, but apparently people think that an evil character is more depraved if they're "evil" and also bisexual. I don't see it but I see enough of people talking about such stereotypes here and elsewhere that I get why Bioware avoided doing this with Solas. It's not even that he'd be the "depraved bisexual", it's that the "depraved" and "evil" part would have come as a surprise, and I'm sure a lot of people, even if not even most might feel slighted for it.

 

In other words, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were the reaction. Still, I'm in favor of Bioware having some balls in the future.

It would contradict to the number of romance like Josephine and Solas who have no sex scene, and they said it's up to the individual writers if I remember it correctly. Plus, they want to go for 2/2/2, the number of sex of sex scenes wouldn't change whether Iron Bull or Blackwall (preferrably Cullen) were straight or bi. 

 

Yes, I can agree that Bioware should have some balls in the future and branching out their characters more. Having set sexuality should allow them to explore more stories they can tell with the sexuality like the bi-curious guy who thought he was gay up until he meets the male inquisitor, a mushy and romantic gay guy, a butch lesbian, a straight promiscuous guy who hits on every girl but fail at every of his advances. Having set sexuality would actually give them more freedom if they're willing to branch outside of the typical archetypes they have. 

[Addictress]

Not only that. It also forces the writting to say the least about the sexual experience of the character, so we couldn't break the precious headcanon of some so delicate and sensible who can't deal with a character having preferences. That kind of writting can only remove a lot of potential. The romance of Dorian couldn't be the same at all and as much developped with that kind of system. 

 

It's less about the character, and more about the player. 

Right, my argument does risk sounding like you want to suppress or hide sexuality because we can't take it. I mentioned that earlier in this thread and recognize that.

 

However, the counter to this is that I felt like Anders was one of the strongest romances, and if you weren't aware of and if they didn't write his flirtations with both sexes in Awakening then his romance would not have been diminished by the absence of his declaring his sexuality.

 

The explicitly wrote Dorian's romance, which was great, to have the sexuality component in there, so yes it would've been less had it not been there, and I wouldn't reverse or wish Dorian did not happen. But it was designed to be that way, and they could just as well design characters to have great romances that do not need sexual identity to be an integral part.

[Colonelkillabee]

Lol, I don't know what to tell you. It is quite puzzling.

Is it? People in America practically worship dogs, as well as cats of course. I went to Romania and strays were everywhere. It was strange to them that we had so many pet stores and groups that adopted and cared for stray animals. They think Americans worship dogs. ****** is still an insult here, lol.

[Malthier]

I see a stereotype!

 

uh uh sure. except i didn't just guess the south, i misremembered where he said he was from in the past. so no. i didn't profile him.

 

besides being realistic about what kind of social standards appear in what areas of the world =/= stereotyping.

[Battlebloodmage]

Right, my argument does risk sounding like you want to suppress or hide sexuality because we can't take it. I mentioned that earlier in this thread and recognize that.

 

However, the counter to this is that I felt like Anders was one of the strongest romances, and if you weren't aware of and if they didn't write his flirtations with both sexes in Awakening then his romance would not have been diminished by the absence of his declaring his sexuality.

 

The explicitly wrote Dorian's romance, which was great, to have the sexuality component in there, so yes it would've been less had it not been there, and I wouldn't reverse or wish Dorian did not happen. But it was designed to be that way, and they could just as well design characters to have great romances that do not need sexual identity to be an integral part.

I wish Dorian did not happen, at least his storyline.