Nevarra and the Free Marches all seem to have male rulers, from what we can tell, and looking at the history of Orlesian emperors, an empress regnant like Celene is an anomaly. Ferelden, of course, is up to player choice.
Also, most of the rulers in Orzammar have been Kings. Queens are the exception. Not non-existent, but unusual.
And I know that we are talking about Southern Thedas, but the Anderfels is also ruled by a man currently. Not sure who the current ruler of Antiva is.
I feel I should note that I have heard the accusation that Bioware paraded Dorian Pavus as their first gay character and when I looked at the articles people cited, they had no quotes from Bioware of that nature and the source from which the other quotes came from were from an interview David Gaider wherein the smallest portion of the interview was about Dorian's sexuality, the rest was unrelated to that. The media made a fuss about Dorian's sexuality, not Bioware as far as I could tell. This only make sense considering there has been other characters prior to Dorian who were gay.
Dorian Pavus is the first male companion who is gay but he is not the first companion nor character to be gay.
Holy ****! You and I actually agree completely on this. I get that being gay is part of his plot, but it's not the crux of the problem. The crux is his unwillingness to play the good Magister and marry some noble gal to produce noble magic babies. Being gay is why he's unwilling, but it's not what the father has an issue with, per se.
Miracles happen every day. It's like I said, I may disagree about a lot of this stuff, but I am no homophobe.
Because there are so many gay stereotypes like that in movies and TV shows already, practically every fashion shows or popular TV shows have an effeminate gay guy in it. Glee, Modern Family, America's Next Top Model, Fashion Runway. It just becomes the predominant perception of what a gay guy is supposed to act like. Many of my friends who are pro-gay actually thought that's how most gay people are and that there needs to be a feminine gay guy in a gay relationship. There is no balancing, especially for the supposed "first" gay character. The thing is how do you know those straight acting friends are not gay? Some could be in the closet while others you just may not know about. Going with a feminine gay guy especially for the first gay character seem to reinforce the idea of gay guys that have been misconstrued through the media that they're all feminine. The same as with nerdy Asians who are frequently no fun or a weirdo.
I do get that, believe me I do, but I think people should take it one step at a time. People are more accepting of gay guys, but it's still not there yet. The first step in my opinion is getting people used to guys like Dorian. If you're used to that, then a guy coming out of the closet and not being feminine would be like, no big deal at all, like how it was for me when I found out a friend of mine was gay. Not because he came out, but because it simply never came up, lol. I probably should have noticed when he said he wore his mom's pants, but his parents are lesbians, and honestly, those pants didn't look that feminine despite being light pink anyway XD.
And besides, I'm just talking about those that are openly gay, as in they know they're gay and don't hide or deny it and are fully aware of it. If people are trying to get others to accept gay, they should accept all aspects of gay culture, and we're not there yet.
Well, I'd argue that it's not really a 'coming out' story at all. It's the other cliche gay story: the "my family doesn't accept me for who I am" story. But with a little twist: his father doesn't care that he's gay; he cares that he's giving him magical grandbabies.
And, the fact that it's so common doesn't actually ruin it too much for me. It's not exactly groundbreaking at all, but I don't mind them giving this storyline a go....once. Now, if they have another gay Imperial in DA4 and that character also has a "my family doesn't accept me for who I am" story, then I'll be pissed. But doing the story once -- especially when the other gay character in the gay has no plot related to her sexuality whatsoever -- doesn't bother me.
Also, I don't think Bioware has ever called Dorian their "first" gay character, although I might be wrong on that. I think that the media incorrectly did that. I think that Gaider said first gay male companion, which is actually true. Not first gay companion (Juhani). Not first gay guy (Steve). But the first 'gay male companion'. And, now, we should be done with gay related "firsts".
Holy ****! You and I actually agree completely on this. I get that being gay is part of his plot, but it's not the crux of the problem. The crux is his unwillingness to play the good Magister and marry some noble gal to produce noble magic babies. Being gay is why he's unwilling, but it's not what the father has an issue with, per se.
Honestly, I don't really remember that being a big part of her character. I vaguely remember something about luring a guy into the woods. But that's about the extent of it. Outside of PC and PC related plots, I don't think of her as promiscuous at all. But I might be forgetting, I suppose.
You're arguing semantic now, as I have already talked about in previous thread. It's a gay conversion storyline with a slight twist, but at its based element, it's still that, and it's not a coincidence that it was a gay character.
Even if it's not Bioware, the media often held the misconception of the masses that see Dorian as the "first" gay character and as such, they should really have been careful with him and not make another stereotypical story with him and give him an actual unique storyline instead.
Like I said, those other weird or improbable traits are things that are expected from a fantasy game anyway.
But if people think it a double standard, that's fine, everyone's guilty of those.
theyre all pretty weird even within the context of the world theyre in. outcast dalish mage, magic slave super soldier. anders is supposed to be a unique kind of abomination.
even if I agreed with you that four bisexuals in one place is so unrealistic (which i don't because that's not even how statistics work) you've still got a hard time accounting for how all these weirdos with nothing in common ended up together.
Tropes and stereotypes aren't inherently bad. Some are, some aren't, but they generally exist for a reason.
Correct. The issue with this particular stereotype is that we also have people using this exact same stereotype to argue against characters who don't fit that stereotype.
Perfect example: Right before it got nuked, there were people in the 'badass gay' thread arguing that of course there can't be a badass gay character, because gay guys aren't badass. And then cited all of the flamboyant stereotypes as a reason why this type of character "wouldn't be realistic".
So while I totally agree that stereotypes are inherently neutral and, frankly, based on something. The issue around this particular one is that it's so strong that many people just can't get past it.
Interestingly, I actually don't think that Dorian is a flamboyant stereotype. Yeah, he checks a lot of the boxes. But he also misses a lot of them too. I just think he's more flamboyant than past gay/bisexual guys so people kind of treat like he's this mincing nelly with a Paul Lynde voice and that's just not the case. In fact, I would kind of like a really super flamboyant gay guy at some point. And a super butch lesbian. Because they are representative of many gay/lesbian people. I just want to make sure that we break that really ****** awful idea that a gay guy can't be masculine or "badass" simply because he's gay.
theyre all pretty weird even within the context of the world theyre in. outcast dalish mage, magic slave super soldier. anders is supposed to be a unique kind of abomination.
even if I agreed with you that four bisexuals in one place is so unrealistic (which i don't because that's not even how statistics work) you've still got a hard time accounting for how all these weirdos with nothing in common ended up together.
What can I say, an outcast dalish and the like doesn't seem that weird to me in a game full of dragons and witches. That said, I can account for that strange occurrence with the same reasoning I came up with for Bioware making four out of five romanceable players bi. Its actually the same reason you gave, player convenience. For lore sharing and storytelling, as far as the weird occurrences you are talking about. You're right in that I didn't complain about that, because that was expected, and it to me is far less of a crime than making people bisexual because the developers saw it as a convenience.
I do get that, believe me I do, but I think people should take it one step at a time. People are more accepting of gay guys, but it's still not there yet. The first step in my opinion is getting people used to guys like Dorian. If you're used to that, then a guy coming out of the closet and not being feminine would be like, no big deal at all, like how it was for me when I found out a friend of mine was gay. Not because he came out, but because it simply never came up, lol. I probably should have noticed when he said he wore his mom's pants, but his parents are lesbians, and honestly, those pants didn't look that feminine despite being light pink anyway XD.
And besides, I'm just talking about those that are openly gay, as in they know they're gay and don't hide or deny it and are fully aware of it. If people are trying to get others to accept gay, they should accept all aspects of gay culture, and we're not there yet.
Is Dorian openly gay? He hides his sexuality from the public. I would think it would be easier for straight guys to accept gay characters to act like them rather than feminine. Anyway, feminine gay guys are so prevalent in the media that a masculine gay guy would actually be something different from Bioware.
For what it's worth, count me in the "Dorian's story isn't about his gayness," club...as usual. His orientation is undeniably an aspect of his story, but I don't think it's the cornerstone.
What people often forget, is that homosexuality isn't actually taboo in Tevinter the same way it is in some irl societies. It's encouraged as something to do with your slaves. What's taboo is not perpetuating the genetic elitism of the society by breeding in the most optimal way (or what they think is the most optimal way possible).
I don't think Dorian refused the noble Tevinter life because he wasn't allowed to be involved with men (which isn't really true). He had other issues with the entire system that are pretty dominant in most of his in game dialogue.
I think Dorian's story and loyalty quest is primarily about his firm integrity, and how it compares and contrasts to his father's.
Tropes and stereotypes aren't inherently bad. Some are, some aren't, but they generally exist for a reason.
People who think that tropes and stereotypes are inherently bad should stop doing these things :-
1) Getting medical treatment because the effectiveness of medical treatments are based on group trials instead of specified individual tests.
2) Studying science, economics and certain branch of mathematics since there are many things in those fields that focus on the general trends, averages and general population samples.
3) Perusing fictional material since all fiction employ some form of trope and stereotype that has been used before.
4) Buy non tailored clothing, hats and footwear since they are designed to fit a generic group of people.
TL;DR - People who think that tropes and stereotypes are inherently bad should not be living in civilized society since there are many facets of civilized society that follow stereotypes, tropes, general trends, general population samples and averages.
What can I say, an outcast dalish and the like doesn't seem that weird to me in a game full of dragons and witches. That said, I can account for that strange occurrence with the same reasoning I came up with for Bioware making four out of five romanceable players bi. Its actually the same reason you gave, player convenience. For lore sharing and storytelling, as far as the weird occurrences you are talking about. You're right in that I didn't complain about that, because that was expected, and it to me is far less of a crime than making people bisexual because the developers saw it as a convenience.
So here's why you and I battle over this issue: If you said this, then I'd have no issue with it. Because I also don't like that they use bisexuality as a convenience. It's cheap writing. It minimizes bisexuality. And it makes people confuse bisexuality and "playersexuality".
But you keep drifting into this really questionable "It's unrealistic, but not the normal kind of unrealistic which I'm okay with, but unrealistic because of unrelated demographics, specifically when you use these really narrow parameters that I've selected" argument. If you just cut that out of your argument, I'd have no beef with your thinking here. Because they're not related arguments.
There's no headcanon. Anders (and Fenris, Merrill and Bela) are all canonically bisexual.
Is Dorian openly gay? He hides his sexuality from the public. I would think it would be easier for straight guys to accept gay characters to act like them rather than feminine. Anyway, feminine gay guys are so prevalent in the media that a masculine gay guy would actually be something different from Bioware.
Actually, Dorian not being openly gay is a fair point though I'm not sure we see openly gay as the same thing. After all, straight people don't exactly go out of their way to say they're straight. That's what I saw from Dorian. He's just gay, and private about his relationships, which as a straight man, I am too because I don't want everyone knowing my business, especially because my family is nosy, and also sensitive to who I date because of my race.
Anyway, I get your point, it is overly prevalent and likely why most people think more masculine gay guys are a rarity. But, I think that even though this more feminine form though I don't think Dorian is that feminine, is shown more, the fact that it is given representation at all, without (in my opinion) being the character's focus should be celebrated.
Practically every TV show has a gay coming out storyline, I would rather have an actual storyline for the supposed "first" gay character instead of another stereotypical story you can get hundreds times over on TV.
I think Originals Josh and Aiden did good Romeo and Juliet. vampire and werewolf love story.
Even if it's not Bioware, the media often held the misconception of the masses that see Dorian as the "first" gay character and as such, they should really have been careful with him and not make another stereotypical story with him and give him an actual unique storyline instead.
When the misconception was caused by the media, Dorian Pavus had already been written and created, to my knowledge, meaning Bioware would likely have to reimaging and recreate a finished character because of a media misconception that was in no way their fault.
Bioware has created gay characters previously and I would not be surprised to see similar or the same articles about those previous characters nor about future characters because the media has nearly always made misconceptions about these kind of things because misconceptions, misinterpretations, misinformation and so forth is a part of media and communication.
So here's why you and I battle over this issue: If you said this, then I'd have no issue with it. Because I also don't like that they use bisexuality as a convenience. It's cheap writing. It minimizes bisexuality. And it makes people confuse bisexuality and "playersexuality".
But you keep drifting into this really questionable "It's unrealistic, but not the normal kind of unrealistic which I'm okay with, but unrealistic because of unrelated demographics, specifically when you use these really narrow parameters that I've selected" argument. If you just cut that out of your argument, I'd have no beef with your thinking here. Because they're not related arguments.
If you cut out all references to sexuality, then couldn't you just headcannon the bisexuality just as you would headcannon homosexuality or hetersexuality?
Which is to say that they are all romantically interested in either gender and does not, seriously does not necessarily prohibit them from being described as falling somewhere on the asexuality spectrum.
I'm sorry to be jumping on this very old issue which does clearly still upset you but I am very curious about something and I mean no ill intent with my question so I apologize in advance if I come off as such. Going by what I have read you describe as Demisexual, what is preventing Merrill from being Demi Bi? I don't see anything in the description of those sexualities that would make that label contradict itself.
Sorry for the kind of off topic post by the way.
????
Which is to say that they are all romantically interested in either gender and does not, seriously does not necessarily prohibit them from being described as falling somewhere on the asexuality spectrum.
Ahhh, thank you, Lady A.
Is Dorian openly gay? He hides his sexuality from the public. I would think it would be easier for straight guys to accept gay characters to act like them rather than feminine. Anyway, feminine gay guys are so prevalent in the media that a masculine gay guy would actually be something different from Bioware.
I know that we disagree on this, but I'm going to push back on your here. The gay guys that Bioware has put forward aren't overly feminine. Assuming that you are talking about just Steve and Dorian.
If you include the bisexual guys too, we have:
I don't think that they have an issue with presenting 'masculine' gay and bisexual guys. I just think that they avoid having the "KISA" guys being gay/bisexual. But I don't think that it's a masculinity issue. I could very easily see an argument for more feminine guys based on what they've given us.
If you cut out all references to sexuality
NO
If you cut out all references to sexuality, then couldn't you just headcannon the bisexuality just as you would headcannon homosexuality or hetersexuality?
if you want to be gross about it you can.
NO
Why.
It's not Thedas- specific. Unless you pump up those few codices where it is.
if you want to be gross about it you can.
How is it gross? Did you ignore what I said about it NOT being power fantasy because you can be rejected and have normal relationships with other humans based on what you do and say?
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