1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

 

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I do that half for tradition at this point. 

 

Plus I know better than to seriously bring that up in a thread with the OP. They get mad when "fictional" orientations are brought up. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Actually, Dorian not being openly gay is a fair point though I'm not sure we see openly gay as the same thing. After all, straight people don't exactly go out of their way to say they're straight. That's what I saw from Dorian. He's just gay, and private about his relationships, which as a straight man, I am too because I don't want everyone knowing my business, especially because my family is nosy, and also sensitive to who I date because of my race.

 

Anyway, I get your point, it is overly prevalent and likely why most people think more masculine gay guys are a rarity. But, I think that even though this more feminine form though I don't think Dorian is that feminine, is shown more, the fact that it is given representation at all, without (in my opinion) being the character's focus should be celebrated.

Actually, he was hiding it since he was hesitate before introduce the Inquisitor as something else but his boyfriend, while straight people would have no trouble introduce someone as their girlfriend. It's not a matter about privacy or not here.

 

Just as my earlier example, there are a lot of stereotypes of nerdy Asians, actually, it would be hard to find a non-example of that than anything. These stereotypes actually affect them in the dating world, the job world and how society views their worth in general. Stereotypes create expectations among people and may actually have detrimental affects that I would rather them not have.

[daveliam]

If you cut out all references to sexuality, then couldn't you just headcannon the bisexuality just as you would headcannon homosexuality or hetersexuality?

 

Yeah, but I'm not interested in "headcanoning".  I want clearly defined gay and bisexual men.  Who aren't "sometimes gay if you want it but also sometimes straight if you want that" or "kind of sort of gay if you squint" or "gay in the fan fics, but kind of ambiguous in the source material".  And I want them to be more than just the sassy gay sidekick who doesn't get a romantic plot of his own.  It's part of the reason why people still embrace the stereotypes as defining.  Because the idea of a gay guy who is sexual is still "icky" to too many people.

[Addictress]

WHY IS IT GROSS

 

You ALREADY have the grossness of having romance options in the first place. Placing yourself in a digital avatar and romancing fictional people. The grossness was breached THERE, not in whether particular individuals accept you or not.

[Witch Cocktor]

Why.

 

It's not Thedas- specific. Unless you pump up those few codices where it is.

 

I don't want my LIs to not have a sexuality unless I determine what it is. As I said, it represses a healthy, fun aspect of a character.

I like talking about sex, romance, love. Just as I like my companions to talk about it. It's a fun subject, maybe even a deep one, amidst all the chaos on Thedas.

And I also love to see my companions create relationships of their own without my goddamn approval.

[Battlebloodmage]

I know that we disagree on this, but I'm going to push back on your here.  The gay guys that Bioware has put forward aren't overly feminine.  Assuming that you are talking about just Steve and Dorian.

 

• Steve is about as "straight acting" (a term that I despise, by the way) as they come. 
• Dorian is a bit feminine to a degree, but he's more of a fop than a flamboyant gay guy.  Granted, they have similar traits, but many fops who act just like him are straight.  On a "masculine to feminine" spectrum, Dorian probably falls just a hair to the masculine side, in my opinion.

 

If you include the bisexual guys too, we have:

• Sky is another "straight acting" guy
• I can see an argument that maybe Zevran is a bit feminine to a degree, but I think he actually falls more into the Lothario stereotype
• Anders is another "straight acting" guy
• Fenris is another "straight acting" guy
• Kaidan is another "straight acting" guy
• Iron Bull is actually hyper masculine

I don't think that they have an issue with presenting 'masculine' gay and bisexual guys.  I just think that they avoid having the "KISA" guys being gay/bisexual.  But I don't think that it's a masculinity issue.  I could very easily see an argument for more feminine guys based on what they've given us.

Kaidan was created as straight. Bisexual characters don't usually have the feminine stereotype attached to them, they have different stereotypes which I have already talked about. There are only 2 gay characters, Steve and Dorian. Steve is straight acting while Dorian is filled with stereotypes. 

[Colonelkillabee]

So here's why you and I battle over this issue:  If you said this, then I'd have no issue with it.  Because I also don't like that they use bisexuality as a convenience.  It's cheap writing.  It minimizes bisexuality.  And it makes people confuse bisexuality and "playersexuality". 

 

But you keep drifting into this really questionable "It's unrealistic, but not the normal kind of unrealistic which I'm okay with, but unrealistic because of unrelated demographics, specifically when you use these really narrow parameters that I've selected" argument.  If you just cut that out of your argument, I'd have no beef with your thinking here.  Because they're not related arguments.

That's because my complaint is two fold. We disagree on how realistic the portrayal is, or rather, how probable, or if the probability should even matter. Some say no, others say yes. That is a part of my disagreement, I don't deny that, nor do I deny that it's also shaped by my personal experience, which while I admit is something faulty to base an argument from, I only continue to because I've read through the posts from when DA 2 came out, and it was a big topic, so I'm clearly not the only one. Of course, most people have never met an elf either, let alone two or more, but like I said, people like me ignore that because it's a fantasy game. Same for the example of chance that you gave of meeting the person that happened to steal the Qunari book.

 

Now, one could argue that I should expect that given it's Bioware, and at this point, I certainly do which is why I don't much bat an eyelash at certain things like Iron Bull's scene and his tendencies. After Isabella, I'm used to it.

 

I still bring this all up however, because of the chance that they go back to this, and if they do, it would be because of my number one complaint about it, that being the one that you and I actually agree on. I no longer am unused to this demographic in their games because by now, I know Bioware, and I remember how I and others felt initially when we went through the game. Is it the most unusual thing, no but I give it special mention because I think that they thought this scenario no matter how probable, was okay to have not because Kirkwall was more progressive than other places, not for any in game reason or anything like that. But simply because it was convenient.

 

We disagree that this is so abnormal, yes. But maybe we can at least agree that even if not abnormal, they could have at least covered the obvious convenience reasoning by saying Kirkwall was a bit more progressive sexually like Orlais was culturally. At least then, people who thought it unlikely would be able to say "This world is just different than mine and my experiences regarding people's sexuality". Instead, people that thought it a bit strange have to wonder what the reasoning was, and it's very obvious as to why. Hope that better explains my position even if we'll still disagree on the likelihood of such a group popping up in general.

 

Put it this way, in a story where something common comes up, a writer still usually knows that not everyone is used to a certain situation, and that it might need a little explanation. Like why so many murders occur in the city, and to someone outside of the city, or a given country, that might seem unusual.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder if instead of having them all be bisexual or playersexual, they can have the LIs be different orientations that can involve attraction to more than one sex, like for example say 2 bisexual, 1 pansexual, 1 demisexual or something. That still leaves all LIs available to all players, while also allowing them to delve more into the character's sexuality than leaving them completely blank slates. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Was DAI better though? I agree that I prefer DAI approach better than DA2 IF it was done correctly, but I find it implemented very poorly, they consciously avoid making certain characters gay or bi like Solas because he may be a depraved bisexual when it shouldn't be the problem if there are other options to counterbalance it. They consciously make the gay character about gay conversion, no string attached sex, hide his sexuality from the public, basically all the negative stereotypes combined into one, they subconsciously make the bisexual option to once again be a promiscuous guy who prefer the girls. I would agree that set sexuality is preferred if they actually give the gay guys the straight female options. I said it as tongue in cheeks, meaning that a character is romantic and fluffy, at the same time, is an average everyday guy where his sexuality is not a defining characteristic of him. Just write a character for females and make them gay, and see how it turns out. Once again, tongue in cheeks. Yeah, as long as they can do gay characters properly, then I'd prefer sexual orientation, so I'm actually agreeing with you. I was only said bisexuals because they can't handle set sexuality correctly, and even in the all bi options, they still screw it up.

About the bolded: I still find it amusing how we're in the same boat about this. Or, parallel boats, because while you want Bioware to write a romance for a straight woman and then make him gay, I want them to write a romance for a straight woman and then make her a woman

 

There's no headcanon.  Anders (and Fenris, Merrill and Bela) are all canonically bisexual.

 

I'm sorry if I came off as rude it's just...

 

I see bisexuality being used as an excuse to headcanon a character to be whatever the player wants too often in this fandom (and other fandoms) and I'm tired of it.

Just for the record, I definitely am not for playersexual characters even though I mostly support all options being available to everyone (with regards to gender anyway). The characters would be bisexual, demi-bisexual, pansexual, asexual-biromantic... They'd have set orientations. And I don't see what would be so bad about having 4 of those people in the main cast.

 

Nevarra and the Free Marches all seem to have male rulers, from what we can tell, and looking at the history of Orlesian emperors, an empress regnant like Celene is an anomaly. Ferelden, of course, is up to player choice.

It always irked me in DA:O that the landsmeet was even trying to decide the next ruler of Ferelden... because it already had one! Anora was the queen; she was married to Cailan, the king. If a king can rule alone, so can a queen. It's up to her to find a king (or not) again. But I got the impression being a "queen" in Fereldan was inferior to being a king, and they "needed" another king, which pisses me off of course. Particularly since Anora can rule fine on her own even if I don't like her.

[daveliam]

Kaidan was created as straight. Bisexual characters don't usually have the feminine stereotype attached to them, they have different stereotypes which I have already talked about. There are only 2 gay characters, Steve and Dorian. Steve is straight acting while Dorian is filled with stereotypes. 

 

So if we are only looking at the gay guys, we have one straight acting guy and one more flamboyant guy.  How is it a problem?  Isn't that good?  Don't we want a variety for gay representation?  If, say, Blackwall were the gay guy in DA: I and Dorian were straight, but in love with a non-mage woman (and then his story just proceeds as usual), wouldn't it be a valid critique that all gay guys in Bioware games are straight acting? 

 

Again, I think you have a point about some of the other stuff, but I think this one is a bit of a dud.  There are only two, which is hardly enough to determine a pattern.  And within that two, there is variety that includes both masculine and feminine traits for gay guys.  I'm okay with it, frankly. 

 

Doesn't mean I don't want my gay KISA type.  Just means that I don't think Bioware has a problem with how they represent the gay LI's. 

[Witch Cocktor]

Do not open the can of worms, Witch Cocktor.

Someone poke me with a halla-statue please.

[SnakeCode]

I actually disagree that Dorian is a walking stereotype, he's far from it in my opinion, but even if he was, it doesn't matter! Stereotypes aren't a bad thing.

[Akrabra]

It always irked me in DA:O that the landsmeet was even trying to decide the next ruler of Fereldan... because it already had one! Anora was the queen; she was married to Cailan, the king. If a king can rule alone, so can a queen. It's up to her to find a king (or not) again. But I got the impression being a "queen" in Fereldan was inferior to being a king, and they "needed" another king, which pisses me off of course. Particularly since Anora can rule find on her own even if I don't like her.

It is mostly about blood though. If Alistair had been Alicia the situation would have played out the same. It was about getting Calenhad blood on the throne.

[Addictress]

I don't want my LIs to not have a sexuality unless I determine what it is. As I said, it represses a healthy, fun aspect of a character.

I like talking about sex, romance, love. Just as I like my companions to talk about it. It's a fun subject, maybe even a deep one, amidst all the chaos on Thedas.

And I also love to see my companions create relationships of their own without my goddamn approval.

Well, it seems you specifically want these things in your game.

 

I want my Dragon Age experience to be more like Pride and Prejudice, where you select someone who you deeply love and have an intricate romance with, no matter who you are or who they are. I think everyone should experience romancing Solas and the elevated shock and surprise of your lover going off to destroy the world. It makes the story of the game much more personal and intense.

 

I don't really want a lot of sexual banter and stuff thrown about elsewhere. I'm not a very sexual person. I don't need that stuff to make the world intriguing to me. I would rather hear about mages vs. templars, slavery and nobility, the fade, ancient elvehn. I'm more interested in themes of socioeconomic inequality rather than sexual identity politics.

 

But there's nothing we can do about these divergences in what we want in a game. 

[daveliam]

It always irked me in DA:O that the landsmeet was even trying to decide the next ruler of Fereldan... because it already had one! Anora was the queen; she was married to Cailan, the king. If a king can rule alone, so can a queen. It's up to her to find a king (or not) again. But I got the impression being a "queen" in Fereldan was inferior to being a king, and they "needed" another king, which pisses me off of course. Particularly since Anora can rule find on her own even if I don't like her.

 

Well, to be fair, Anora was "Queen Consort", not "Queen Regnant".  In the former, the queen is the wife of the king and is only queen because of that.  The king is the ruler.  When the king dies, the throne passes to his heir (usually his child, but certainly someone from the same bloodline as him).  In the latter, the queen rules on her own.  She holds the throne because she won it or inherited it in her own right.  When her husband (sometimes not even referred to as a king but as a Prince Consort) dies, the throne remains hers.

 

I haven't gotten the impression that there can't be Queen Regnants in Ferelden, but Anora isn't of the bloodline, so she can't inherit the throne.  She can take it by force, but she can't inherit it. 

[Illyria]

About the bolded: I still find it amusing how we're in the same boat about this. Or, parallel boats, because while you want Bioware to write a romance for a straight woman and then make him gay, I want them to write a romance for a straight woman and then make her a woman

 

Just for the record, I definitely am not for playersexual characters even though I mostly support all options being available to everyone (with regards to gender anyway). The characters would be bisexual, pansexual, asexual-biromantic... They'd have set orientations. And I don't see what would be so bad about having 4 of those people in the main cast.

 

It always irked me in DA:O that the landsmeet was even trying to decide the next ruler of Fereldan... because it already had one! Anora was the queen; she was married to Cailan, the king. If a king can rule alone, so can a queen. It's up to her to find a king (or not) again. But I got the impression being a "queen" in Fereldan was inferior to being a king, and they "needed" another king, which pisses me off of course. Particularly since Anora can rule find on her own even if I don't like her.

 

I like the way DAI approched things, having a mix of gay, straight and bi/pan.

 

(And I agree on the straight romance for women being made a woman.  Alistair as an f/f romance would be perfect).

 

Techincally Anora wouldn't inherit being a queen since she's not queen in her own right.  She's a queen through being married to Calian.  Alistair actually has more claim on the throne since he's the brother of the king (and also the son of the previous king).  It's not that being queen is inferior, it's a matter of inheritence.  In my own country, the husband of Queen Elizabeth isn't King Philip, he's Prince Philip because he's only the husband of the queen.  But, if the Landsmeet agrees on it, she can become queen in her own right (with or without Cousland as her prince-consort).  The Alistair/Anora union makes them co-rulers of the country.

[Battlebloodmage]

So if we are only looking at the gay guys, we have one straight acting guy and one more flamboyant guy.  How is it a problem?  Isn't that good?  Don't we want a variety for gay representation?  If, say, Blackwall were the gay guy in DA: I and Dorian were straight, but in love with a non-mage woman (and then his story just proceeds as usual), wouldn't it be a valid critique that all gay guys in Bioware games are straight acting? 

 

Again, I think you have a point about some of the other stuff, but I think this one is a bit of a dud.  There are only two, which is hardly enough to determine a pattern.  And within that two, there is variety that includes both masculine and feminine traits for gay guys.  I'm okay with it, frankly. 

Doesn't mean I don't want my gay KISA type.  Just means that I don't think Bioware has a problem with how they represent the gay LI's. 

Nah, being the first companion is a big deal, and apparently everything thought so. There need to be more masculine gay characters in general because a negative stereotype to something that already are so relevant would reinforce the idea more than something that consider to be an exception. All gay guys are straight acting wouldn't play into any stereotypes. 

 

I doubt we can agree on this.

[Cee]

For what it's worth, count me in the "Dorian's story isn't about his gayness," club...as usual. His orientation is undeniably an aspect of his story, but I don't think it's the cornerstone.

 

What people often forget, is that homosexuality isn't actually taboo in Tevinter the same way it is in some irl societies. It's encouraged as something to do with your slaves. What's taboo is not perpetuating the genetic elitism of the society by breeding in the most optimal way (or what they think is the most optimal way possible).

 

I don't think Dorian refused the noble Tevinter life because he wasn't allowed to be involved with men (which isn't really true). He had other issues with the entire system that are pretty dominant in most of his in game dialogue.

 

I think Dorian's story and loyalty quest is primarily about his firm integrity, and how it compares and contrasts to his father's.

 

I see a lot of people talk about the sexuality aspect, but ignore the strong cultural component of what's going on there. Dorian isn't living up to his family's, and his father's expectations. AKA the 'proper' way to do things in this rigid, noble part of Tevinter society. There's a lot at risk with deviance from social norms when you're at the top there. Dorian could have gone and complied like a cooperative Tevinter altus heir, but that would mean completely sacrificing himself, his happiness, and who he is to these cultural norms and traditions. Whatever he might have wanted in life, in society, would be pushed aside, and that is something many people in a similar position (not even solely referring to sexuality here) would find very disheartening or push them into despair. Dorian was pushed into despair not just by the familial isappointment, and by his father's desperate desire to change his son so he could fit into the mold their culture had prepared for him, the 'right' way to live, and then went on to drink excessively and be found in places that would cause additional tarnish onto the Pavus house social reputation.

 

While social norms are prevalent across all classes, there's a rigidity at that level (and we see this even in rich and noble people across the world and throughout history) that applies extra pressure to maintain.

 

Yes, Dorian's sexuality is important to his personal mission, his story, and his identity, but it's not just some stereotypical coming out. He's not even coming out. He tells you that he's gay there, but that's not the focus. There's rejection, yes, but his disappointment and deep hurt comes from betrayed trust, and the rejection of a son in favor of social norms, of cultural compliance and noble reputation, instead of caring who Dorian was and fostering that somehow. Even Halward's attempt at changing Dorian could potentially be argued as a perverse try at making both pieces fit - social norms AND preventing his son's unhappiness. But, it was a deep, deep wound to Dorian's trust, as it should have been.

 

In any case, I am glad we had Dorian and his story, because of the multiple facets involved. My Inquisitor is bi, and my headcanon is that this brought her and Dorian closer because, as a Dalish woman, she faced some subtle, but present cultural pressure due to initially falling in love and planning a life with another woman (and the Dalish attitude toward same sex relationships isn't homophobic, but cultural pressure to go make babies exists, and looking at same sex pairings as a type of wasted resources can impact those involved. For mine, the pressure to become a mother is something that does gnaw at her, as an eldest sister, a role model, feeling like a disappointing daughter). So that brings them closer, and I was glad for that friendship for her.

 

My team was mainly Dorian, Cassandra, and Solas. (And I would've probably avoided Solavellan hell had Cass been available to women. She was quite distracting. )

[Steelcan]

 

Techincally Anora wouldn't inherit being a queen since she's not queen in her own right.  She's a queen through being married to Calian.  Alistair actually has more claim on the throne since he's the brother of the king (and also the son of the previous king).  It's not that being queen is inferior, it's a matter of inheritence.  In my own country, the husband of Queen Elizabeth isn't King Philip, he's Prince Philip because he's only the husband of the queen.  But, if the Landsmeet agrees on it, she can become queen in her own right (with or without Cousland as her prince-consort).  The Alistair/Anora union makes them co-rulers of the country.

well historically it hasn't mattered if the "King" was a King in his own right or only by marriage,  Guy de Lusignan wasn't King of Jerusalem by birth or inheritance, he was by marriage, despite this he retained the title of King and ruled with Queen Sybille (who actually wielded true power is not something I'll get into)

 

Long story short, there's a difference between King's and Queen's Matrimonial and inherited ones, but its largely an invention of the 20th century (that is not to say examples can't be found elsewhere but the trend is relatively recent)

[9TailsFox]

While I completely understand why you say that, I don't.

 

Dorian is the Thedas equivalent to my IRL best friend.  Their personalities, passions, sense of humor, intellectual elitism, the whole package.  It's like they copy-pasted him into DA.  Also the companion quest, which I did IRL with my best friend.  The only difference was the falling out was with his mother, rather than his father.  What kind of mother tells her son she doesn't love him anymore?    I just wish I could've given Dorian the hug I gave my real-life best friend.

 

I really do understand how no one who'd actually gone through that would want to relive it in a game - which is supposed to be fun, after all.  So I understand your position.  But I sill love Dorian.

This mom.

[Battlebloodmage]

I like the way DAI approched things, having a mix of gay, straight and bi/pan.

 

(And I agree on the straight romance for women being made a woman.  Alistair as an f/f romance would be perfect).

 

Techincally Anora wouldn't inherit being a queen since she's not queen in her own right.  She's a queen through being married to Calian.  Alistair actually has more claim on the throne since he's the brother of the king (and also the son of the previous king).  It's not that being queen is inferior, it's a matter of inheritence.  In my own country, the husband of Queen Elizabeth isn't King Philip, he's Prince Philip because he's only the husband of the queen.  But, if the Landsmeet agrees on it, she can become queen in her own right (with or without Cousland as her prince-consort).  The Alistair/Anora union makes them co-rulers of the country.

Let's make all romance in the game for straight women and change their gender and orientation.  

 

j/k

[Xilizhra]

It always irked me in DA:O that the landsmeet was even trying to decide the next ruler of Fereldan... because it already had one! Anora was the queen; she was married to Cailan, the king. If a king can rule alone, so can a queen. It's up to her to find a king (or not) again. But I got the impression being a "queen" in Fereldan was inferior to being a king, and they "needed" another king, which pisses me off of course. Particularly since Anora can rule find on her own even if I don't like her.

To clarify: Anora was not the queen regnant, but the queen consort. The Landsmeet elected Cailan; bringing Anora in as the regnant would require another election. Now, if she is elected, then yes, it's all well and good and she can rule alone, but her position is not that of a vice president who smoothly steps into the president's seat if the president dies. Similarly, a king consort Hero of Ferelden wouldn't become king regnant immediately if Anora died.

[Witch Cocktor]

I want my Dragon Age experience to be more like Pride and Prejudice, where you select someone who you deeply love and have an intricate romance with, no matter who you are or who they are. I think everyone should experience romancing Solas and the elevated shock and surprise of your lover going off to destroy the world. It makes the story of the game much more personal and intense.

 

I don't really want a lot of sexual banter and stuff thrown about elsewhere. I'm not a very sexual person. I don't need that stuff to make the world intriguing to me. I would rather hear about mages vs. templars, slavery and nobility, the fade, ancient elvehn. I'm more interested in themes of socioeconomic inequality rather than sexual identity politics.

 

And I want my Dragon Age experience with marvelous characters that were written from head to toe, from their hairstyle to their sexuality. Every part of their identity carefully built and integrated to their story and personality. I don't want gray blops whose sexuality I can define, I want colorful shapes, with defined sexualities, personalities. All different, all unique, all well written. I want them to feel real and I want them to be sexual (or non-sexual), free to explore their sexuality and talk about how they like big breasts or the rough surface of a man's face and his touch on your body. I want some of them to be attracted to other companions of NPCs, I want some of them to have meaningful relationships in the past, and I want some of them to be extremely flirty.

 

All that in addition to exploring and hearing more of Thedas.

 

You speak of sexuality as if it was a disease, and that annoys me.

[SnakeCode]

Nah, being the first companion is a big deal, and apparently everything thought so. There need to be more masculine gay characters in general because a negative stereotype to something that already are so relevant would reinforce the idea more than something that consider to be an exception. All gay guys are straight acting wouldn't play into any stereotypes. 

 

I doubt we can agree on this.

 

How is it a negative stereotype? There are plenty of effeminate gay guys IRL, and it isn't a good or a bad thing, it just is. Like DaveLiam said, there has been one flamboyant gay character and one thats more "masculine". That's a 50/50 split and isn't indicative of any pattern.

 

Also trope subversion is a trope in and of itself.

[Steelcan]

To clarify: Anora was not the queen regnant, but the queen consort. The Landsmeet elected Cailan; bringing Anora in as the regnant would require another election. Now, if she is elected, then yes, it's all well and good and she can rule alone, but her position is not that of a vice president who smoothly steps into the president's seat if the president dies. Similarly, a king consort Hero of Ferelden wouldn't become king regnant immediately if Anora died.

there'd obviously be some prevailing sentiment that she'd stay on though given how she was actually running the country, the only part that was unrealistic (in regards to medieval succession) was that she wasn't expected to have to remarry.  Since her claim to the throne is entirely based around marriage, she has no rights to sit the throne on her own.