1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Witch Cocktor]

Okay, but the same could be said of you and speaking negatively of people who don't feel comfortable with sexuality, like me. Asexual people have a voice too y'know

 

 

(I'm not really asexual. I mean this is TMI but I would do Solas ASAP as I said before) like I'm going to get a textbook on CGI facial animation algorithms just so I can render this Solas sex scene myself in 3DsMax goddammit

 

Honestly, I don't even need playersexuality. I don't mind defined sexualities. I just think playersexuality works, that's all. Like there's nothing bad about it. Both work.

 

If you aren't comfortable with the topic of something neutral which isn't inherently bad, wrong or morally wrong, then that's not my problem.

I'll only look down on you if you try to censor media because you are uncomfortable. That's unspoken for.

 

You have an interesting view of asexuals if you think that asexual voice = not comfortable with sexuality.

I see plenty of asexuals draw porn, enjoy smutty fanfic and in general embrace sex and sexuality, despite not enjoying the thought of having sex or not feeling sexual attraction.

[Catilina]

There's lots of comedy from lots of characters in the story. That wasn't all that Dorian was. He's a confident man that thinks and knows he's the **** both magically and appearance wise. And that has a sense of humor. It wouldn't be bad to anyone if he were straight, and that's unfair.

Dorian not a bad character, I don't hate, just his backstory so "cheap", shamelessly stereotyped, without any semblance of originality. (Sorry, that was my first impression of him ... and the second too.)

[Addictress]

 

That's what I thought. Your solution isn't one.  You just want to compromise the writting, you just want to priviligiate power fantasy, to its detriment if needed. That sounds gross, boring and useless, incredibly forced. Some care more about the writting than power fantasy and are actually interested of having companions that sounds as alive as possible. This is pretty much why Bioware is praised I think ? Your radical solution cuts out uselessly a lot of potential interesting past good stories from the companions, funny comments, interesting  events, party banters, like you said any sexual references and any sexual identity in the characterization of the character, just because " headcanon ". 

 

A character like Vivienne might not be romanced, couldn't not exist because she had been the mistress of someone else, and she took advantage of her relationship for years. What a shame. A part of her past and power resolves around her relationship with Bastien. You couldn't just remove that little story, its a part of her and a part of her experience. An interesting and potential romance removed because headcanon. We couldn't have any character who has a sexual past. Goodbye Cassandra. Goodbye Dorian. We couldn't have a character, claiming that he had a thing for someone once. Goodbye Cullen. Your solution removes uselessly a lot of possibilities.

 

The author thinking about writting something ! " Ah yes, I can't, because otherwise it will break the headcanon of someone. I'm forced to remove that little story. "

 

Don't you see how the area becomes incredibly narrower, for the writer with less freedom and creativity allowed because of ridiculous restrictions like your solution ?  The potential of the writting might clearly suffer. And i'm certain it's one of the reasons why the writers might prefer the set sexualities like Gaider. It allows much more possibilies and freedom to write. 

 

Do you realize how the focus is so much on the player in your thinking, when we are talking about writting which should be as independent as possible from the player's mindset ? Which funnily enough is pretty much why we care so much aboutwhat our companion think ? That's what is so GROSS. In a game like Skyrim, it didn't bother me, because the characters are already CHEAP in this game. I don't care about any of them. They feel like drones. I played the game for exploration anyway, not for the story and the characters. But in a Bioware game, yeah that would bother me.

 

Cassandra's sexuality is not a significant part of her past. You don't even know her sexuality until she is romanced.

 

Yeah, Vivienne's sexuality plays a part, that's true. But then again she barely had ANY side quest content so I'm not sure she's a great example for what you're arguing for.

 

As for priviligiate power fantasy. Privilege? Heteronormative privilege is all over the place and I would like to see it cut out as well. So that's why I want a bisexual woman warden. That's why I want a gay inquisitor. If you make it so, you wrest control from a pre-defined and established character with defined sexuality and make it so.

 

I don't think cutting out sexual party banter will degrade the writing or character content. My fondest memory of Dorian is his speeches on restoring Tevinter, being an intelligent voice in the magisterium against blood magic and corruption. My fondest memories of Dorian are when he tried to 'find common ground with Solas' and Solas says "then free all the slaves in Tevinter today" and he says "I don't think I can do that." The most interesting aspects of his character were not about his sexuality, to me. They are valid, and I appreciate when the persecuted and minority factions of gamership are able to use the game as a vehicle to make statements to question and challenge heteronormative views, but at the end of the day, I find it an elective component of the game. 

Nothing that Sera does or how Sera acts is defined by her sexuality. She upsets the pecking order and keeps nobility on her feet. She could be any sexual identity and do this.

 

Iron Bull is conflicted between the Qun and breaking from the Qun. Nothing about his sexuality affects this main aspect of his character.

 

Solas is an ancient Elvehn carrying out plans to restore his people and conflicted with his realization that the current people in Thedas are qualified persons as well. Nothing about his sexuality affects this.

 

The writing and characters would not be diminished by cutting out sexuality. In fact, even Vivienne could've had some other issue we helped her with, and helping her with that issue would not have affected her ambitious nature, her drive to use the Inquisition to become more influential as a pro-Circle enchanter.

[SnakeCode]

Right, but no one is saying that they are good stereotypes.  I've said that the flamboyant gay stereotype is bad -- not in and of itself because it's actually representational of many guy guys, but because of how many people latch onto it and use it as ammo. 

 

I'm saying that Bioware doesn't have a problem with stereotypical gay representation in my opinion.

 

Just because some people use that stereotype to say there can't be traditionally masculine guy characters, that still doesn't make the stereotype itself bad. It just shows that some people are idiots.

 

And like you said, it's representative of a lot of people in the real world. I'm straight, but my favourite bar to go to in my city is a gay bar, and there's a good mix of people but there are absolutely a lot of flamboyant guys in there, it's definitely a majority.

[Battlebloodmage]

There's lots of comedy from lots of characters in the story. That wasn't all that Dorian was. He's a confident man that thinks and knows he's the **** both magically and appearance wise. And that has a sense of humor. It wouldn't be bad to anyone if he were straight, and that's unfair.

Because not only his personality, but he also forms the hag and gay guy thing with Vivienne. His storyline, the gay issues, everyone combined make being gay as his identity instead of a part of him. It wouldn't be bad if he were straight, he should have been straight, and if he were straight, his interaction and storyline wouldn't have been the way it was. 

[Addictress]

If you aren't comfortable with the topic of something neutral which isn't inherently bad, wrong or morally wrong, then that's not my problem.

I'll only look down on you if you try to censor media because you are uncomfortable. That's unspoken for.

 

You have an interesting view of asexuals if you think that asexual voice = not comfortable with sexuality.

I see plenty of asexuals draw porn, enjoy smutty fanfic and in general embrace sex and sexuality, despite not enjoying the thought of having sex or not feeling sexual attraction.

True, I associated asexuality with "being uncomfortable with sexuality" which is incorrect. But I'm not trying to censor media. I wouldn't mind a few defined-sexuality characters along with a few player-sexual characters. I just don't see why playersexuality is attacked as a bad mechanism. 

[daveliam]

Just because some people use that stereotype to say there can't be traditionally masculine guy characters, that still doesn't make the stereotype itself bad. It just shows that some people are idiots.

 

And like you said, it's representative of a lot of people in the real world. I'm straight, but my favourite bar to go to in my city is a gay bar, and there's a good mix of people but there are absolutely a lot of flamboyant guys in there, it's definitely a majority.

 

I'm guessing it's not a leather/bear bar then......

 

I'm actually a big proponent of making sure that gay representation hits the spectrum.  For the longest time, the only gay guys shown in media were lisping flamboyant guys -- almost always either a villain or the sassy gay sidekick.  Now, it's starting to swing the other direction.  Almost all of the gay guys (especially in gay themed media) are straight acting.  Personally, I relate more to this type of gay character.  But I also recognize that there's backlash now because it implies that 'flamboyant' guys are somehow "lesser" or "bad".  I get that this is how things happen, but I wish the pendulum didn't have to swing so absolutely.

[SnakeCode]

I'm guessing it's not a leather/bear bar then......

 

I'm actually a big proponent of making sure that gay representation hits the spectrum.  For the longest time, the only gay guys shown in media were lisping flamboyant guys -- almost always either a villain or the sassy gay sidekick.  Now, it's starting to swing the other direction.  Almost all of the gay guys (especially in gay themed media) are straight acting.  Personally, I relate more to this type of gay character.  But I also recognize that there's backlash now because it implies that 'flamboyant' guys are somehow "lesser" or "bad".  I get that this is how things happen, but I wish the pendulum didn't have to swing so absolutely.

 

No, i don't think so. Although there was this huge hairy fat guy who spilled his drink all over my legs, then said "don't worry, it'll dry off" whilst creepily rubbing my thigh.

 

Completely agree with the second paragraph.

[Battlebloodmage]

Just because some people use that stereotype to say there can't be traditionally masculine guy characters, that still doesn't make the stereotype itself bad. It just shows that some people are idiots.

 

And like you said, it's representative of a lot of people in the real world. I'm straight, but my favourite bar to go to in my city is a gay bar, and there's a good mix of people but there are absolutely a lot of flamboyant guys in there, it's definitely a majority.

Most masculine gay guys don't usually go to gay bars. Not just gay bars, but the LGBT clubs at my High School and universities are mostly feminine gay guys. That's what I've noticed. That doesn't mean that's the majority. Most gay people you wouldn't know are gay, some are even married with kids. The feminine gay guys stand out because you know they're gay right away.

[Lady Artifice]

Even Halward's attempt at changing Dorian could potentially be argued as a perverse try at making both pieces fit - social norms AND preventing his son's unhappiness.

 

I'm only snipping because of how much I enjoy the particular point you've made here. I was intrigued by the contrast between Halward and Dorian immediately, because a lot of Dorian's strong sense of ethics were given voice and put into perspective by what Halward taught him. Halward comes off to me as someone who could easily be perceived (and certainly perceived himself) as a kind of token good teammate amongst the magisterium. He disapproves of blood magic, for one thing, and his demeanor is of something who at least pretends to be an honorable man. I believe that he's convinced he is an honorable, and who loves his son and believes that he cares about his happiness.

 

But when push came to shove, Halward compromised his ethics and his son's safety for his legacy, and convinced himself it was for his son's own good. Dorian is everything Halward likes to pretend he is, minus the hypocrisy.

 

I think that was where my focus was on during that scene, and it was one of reasons I liked it so much. I don't know of any "stereotypical coming out stories" that do anything like that.

[Catilina]

Most masculine gay guys don't usually go to gay bars. Not just gay bars, but the LGBT clubs at my High School and universities are mostly feminine gay guys. That's what I've noticed. That doesn't mean that's the majority. Most gay people you wouldn't know are gay, some are even married with kids. The feminine gay guys stand out because you know they're gay right away.

This is exactly what is wrong with stereotyping and oversimplification. It's based on truth, of course, but only shows the visible surface, the rest is hidden from view more. This is often misleading. It's the danger.

[Colonelkillabee]

Because not only his personality, but he also forms the hag and gay guy thing with Vivienne. His storyline, the gay issues, everyone combined make being gay as his identity instead of a part of him. It wouldn't be bad if he were straight, he should have been straight, and if he were straight, his interaction and storyline wouldn't have been the way it was. 

I wholeheartedly and completely disagree....

 

His storyline is about not conforming to his father's wishes and his legacy. He doesn't like his wife to be because they don't click personality wise, not just because she has a vagina. The only difference would be that his father would try changing something else about him to make the marriage work, rather than his sexuality. As to why he couldn't just try something else, as I'm guessing that would be someone's response, it's because his father doesn't know him very well, enough to see his sexuality is not the reason he refused to marry her. Not the only one, or the biggest reason.

[daveliam]

No, i don't think so. Although there was this huge hairy fat guy who spilled his drink all over my legs, then said "don't worry, it'll dry off" whilst creepily rubbing my thigh.

 

Completely agree with the second paragraph.

 

Well, he wasn't wrong.  It will dry off.  Thanks, wise bear!

 

Most masculine gay guys don't usually go to gay bars. Not just gay bars, but the LGBT clubs at my High School and universities are mostly feminine gay guys. That's what I've noticed. That doesn't mean that's the majority. Most gay people you wouldn't know are gay, some are even married with kids. The feminine gay guys stand out because you know they're gay right away.

 

I think that this is regional.  I live in NYC.  And there are plenty of gay bars that have a predominantly masculine clientele.  And there are plenty of gay bars that don't.  Before that, I lived in Philly.  Same thing.  In fact, most of the gay bars that I've been to have an equal amount of "masculine" and "feminine" gay guys as clients.

 

But if you live somewhere where there's only one gay bar, then it's a different story.  But that probably falls into the socio-political reasons that you mention.  The fact that "straight acting guys" can "pass".  It's privilege (yes, that privilege -- it exists in the gay community as well).

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm only snipping because of how much I enjoy the particular point you've made here. I was intrigued by the contrast between Halward and Dorian immediately, because a lot of Dorian's strong sense of ethics were given voice and put into perspective by what Halward taught him. Halward comes off to me as someone who could easily be perceived (and certainly perceived himself) as a kind of token good teammate amongst the magisterium. He disapproves of blood magic, for one thing, and his demeanor is of something who at least pretends to be an honorable man. I believe that he's convinced he is an honorable, and who loves his son and believes that he cares about his happiness.

 

But when push came to shove, Halward compromised his ethics and his son's safety for his legacy, and convinced himself it was for his son's own good. Dorian is everything Halward likes to pretend he is, minus the hypocrisy.

 

I think that was where my focus was on during that scene, and it was one of reasons I liked it so much. I don't know of any "stereotypical coming out stories" that do anything like that.

Watch Kurt's coming out story on Glee. There are many gay storyline about unacceptance families that may gay convert him. It's more about the gay conversion scene that gay coming out, but most of the gay storyline have some variation of family trying to change him or some parents while disapprove still accept him in the end. I see it hundreds of times already. 

[Addictress]

The strongest method by which media can tear down heteronormative power structures is not by forcing lectures and PSA's through NPCs and tokens. It is through ...say... the Rogue One method. To take control of protagonists and perspectives, to validate the perspective of someone who is not simply heterosexual, such that we explore the human condition through that vehicle. Give a straight bro gamer uninformed in sexual identity politics a controller, tell him to be a woman, who romances Isabela. He feels betrayed. He experiences a spectrum of feelings. Through the protagonist's eyes. Then you have validated the existence of someone who is not heteronormative and carved out, in the cultural space, a place for them. This is how you make ground.

[Battlebloodmage]

I wholeheartedly and completely disagree....

 

His storyline is about not conforming to his father's wishes and his legacy. He doesn't like his wife to be because they don't click personality wise, not just because she has a vagina. The only difference would be that his father would try changing something else about him to make the marriage work, rather than his sexuality. As to why he couldn't just try something else, as I'm guessing that would be someone's response, it's because his father doesn't know him very well, enough to see his sexuality is not the reason he refused to marry her. Not the only one, or the biggest reason.

What you describe is just downright to sematic when it comes to a typical gay conversion or gay coming out story, especially considering how the story is from Gaider's experience. These kinds of storyline wouldn't be given to a straight character anyhow. 

[Illyria]

well historically it hasn't mattered if the "King" was a King in his own right or only by marriage,  Guy de Lusignan wasn't King of Jerusalem by birth or inheritance, he was by marriage, despite this he retained the title of King and ruled with Queen Sybille (who actually wielded true power is not something I'll get into)

 

Long story short, there's a difference between King's and Queen's Matrimonial and inherited ones, but its largely an invention of the 20th century (that is not to say examples can't be found elsewhere but the trend is relatively recent)

 

That only matters if Dragon Age was a historically correct period drama.  It's a fantasy game in a fantasy world with dragons.

 

And I want my Dragon Age experience with marvelous characters that were written from head to toe, from their hairstyle to their sexuality. Every part of their identity carefully built and integrated to their story and personality. I don't want gray blops whose sexuality I can define, I want colorful shapes, with defined sexualities, personalities. All different, all unique, all well written. I want them to feel real and I want them to be sexual (or non-sexual), free to explore their sexuality and talk about how they like big breasts or the rough surface of a man's face and his touch on your body. I want some of them to be attracted to other companions of NPCs, I want some of them to have meaningful relationships in the past, and I want some of them to be extremely flirty.

 

All that in addition to exploring and hearing more of Thedas.

 

You speak of sexuality as if it was a disease, and that annoys me.

 

This was really beautifully put.

 

Isabella: hypersexualized, nasty, and promiscuous (If she is a black woman)= Jezebel stereotype.

 

Jokes on you - there's no 'Isabella' in Dragon Age.  There's an Isabela and she's a fantastic character.

 

Because not only his personality, but he also forms the hag and gay guy thing with Vivienne. His storyline, the gay issues, everyone combined make being gay as his identity instead of a part of him. It wouldn't be bad if he were straight, he should have been straight, and if he were straight, his interaction and storyline wouldn't have been the way it was. 

 

Your blaming fandom for these flaws in Dorian's writing - these things aren't present in the game.  Fans always reduce characters down to their basic traits (honestly if I see one more modern day AU in which Dorian is a hair dresser or makeup artist then I'm going to flip a roomfull of desks).

[Battlebloodmage]

The strongest method by which media can tear down heteronormative power structures is not by forcing lectures and PSA's through NPCs and tokens. It is through ...say... the Rogue One method. To take control of protagonists and perspectives, to validate the perspective of someone who is not simply heterosexual, such that we explore the human condition through that vehicle. Give a straight bro gamer uninformed in sexual identity politics a controller, tell him to be a woman, who romances Isabela. He feels betrayed. He experiences a spectrum of feelings. Through the protagonist's eyes. Then you have validated the existence of someone who is not heteronormative and carved out, in the cultural space, a place for them. This is how you make ground.

I know many straight guys who play as woman to romance other woman. Main reason why Liara was a bisexual option. 

[Cee]

I'm guessing it's not a leather/bear bar then......

 

I'm actually a big proponent of making sure that gay representation hits the spectrum.  For the longest time, the only gay guys shown in media were lisping flamboyant guys -- almost always either a villain or the sassy gay sidekick.  Now, it's starting to swing the other direction.  Almost all of the gay guys (especially in gay themed media) are straight acting.  Personally, I relate more to this type of gay character.  But I also recognize that there's backlash now because it implies that 'flamboyant' guys are somehow "lesser" or "bad".  I get that this is how things happen, but I wish the pendulum didn't have to swing so absolutely.

 

Researchers are working on an archive of the history of LGBTQ content in games. I attended a talk on this over the weekend. A public version (of the work so far, mid 80s-1999, with the rest of the years in the process) is set to go up in the next few weeks. Surprisingly, there are differences in representation in games versus other media as well over a similar time period. I'm looking forward to combing through the archive when it's up and watching it grow. And as far as the spectrum, yeah, there's always a risk of alienating some people, and that's why varied depictions are so important. To give more people people they can relate to.

 

 

[Sylvianus]

@ Adictress. Okay. You didn't understand the point... AT ALL ! This is probably my last post. I feel no need to repeat myself several times. 

 

As for the heterosexual privilege, lol. Nice try, but this argument is so hillarious and irrelevant to what I'm saying, that I'm just going to forget it immediately,  it has no place in the argument. 

 

From the moment you say, we should cut something in the writting, ( all sexual references, sexual identities ) we should remove a lot of things, we shouldn't allow things that could break the headcanon of the players ( LOL ), where the writer cannot write what he wants, the writting is already potentially diminished. I liked the fact that Cassandra learned me that she had a boyfriend, that my character wasn't her first love, and that her former boyfriend died. That was interesting stuff in the romance arc. It was interesting to learn that Cassandra wants a man who sweeps of her feets, and offers her flowers.

 

Despite being a warrior and difficult, not being " girly " Cassandra wants to be considered as a lady when romantically involved, as much as any other straight girly lady who likes men. That's a very important information about her, and who she is. If you didn't see it, then i'm sorry. 

 

.I don't see why it should be removed. It added more to her character. That's what I'm talking about. If we remove all sexual references right now, yes she is diminished actually. 

 

As for Sera, she does pretty comments about female Qunari plenty of times, it learned me she had a thing for them. it was interesting stuff as much learning that she thinks Cullen has nice blondy hair.

 

Also, the point about Vivienne, wasn't about Vivienne and her story... It was about an interesting character like Vivienne.... If you think about your own solution, you will understand alone I hope, that a character being a mistress of a noble, and which has built a part of her power on that, also being a part of her experience and her story could NOT be romanced, since YOU would remove all sexual references and sexual identity. Which would remove a very interesting romancable character like many others from the the equation. If you still don't understand after that post, I can't help you.... 

 

I feel like I'm talking to a wall that doesn't understand at all what I'm saying. 

[Malthier]

How is it gross? Did you ignore what I said about it NOT being power fantasy because you can be rejected and have normal relationships with other humans based on what you do and say?

 

i didn't ignore it. i disagreed with it. what you're talking about is used all the time to adjust a character's sexuality away from something a person is uncomfortable with or dislikes. there are guys who fanboy all over Merrill but don't want to acknowledge that she's attracted to women too, maybe because they automatically associate bisexuality with promiscuity or they just feel all possessive. the "headcanon" youre describing is usually tantamount to gay and bi erasure and while there's no stopping people from trying to do that mentally it still gets a  from me.

[Colonelkillabee]

What you describe is just downright to sematic when it comes to a typical gay conversion or gay coming out story, especially considering how the story is from Gaider's experience. These kinds of storyline wouldn't be given to a straight character anyhow. 

A boy not conforming to his parent's wishes? Not only is that common, that's pretty much my life in a nutshell, I'm not gay. Hence, I could relate to it, and no it isn't semantics, but rather a key aspect of Dorian's story that people too often overlook or don't understand.

[Catilina]

Your blaming fandom for these flaws in Dorian's writing - these things aren't present in the game.  Fans always reduce characters down to their basic traits (honestly if I see one more modern day AU in which Dorian is a hair dresser or makeup artist then I'm going to flip a roomfull of desks).

 

However, if the character is based on stereotypes already, fans can more easily simplify, in fact, do not even need to bother with it.

[Battlebloodmage]

That only matters if Dragon Age was a historically correct period drama.  It's a fantasy game in a fantasy world with dragons.

 

 

This was really beautifully put.

 

 

Jokes on you - there's no 'Isabella' in Dragon Age.  There's an Isabela and she's a fantastic character.

 

 

Your blaming fandom for these flaws in Dorian's writing - these things aren't present in the game.  Fans always reduce characters down to their basic traits (honestly if I see one more modern day AU in which Dorian is a hair dresser or makeup artist then I'm going to flip a roomfull of desks).

If gay option was Cullen or Blackwall, then they wouldn't make these assumptions, there are enough gay stereotypes about him that make these fanfics and related arts about him more on the feminine side. Dorian and Vivienne are actually something being talked about even by the developers and in the dialogue, they're the mean girls of the group. 

[Lady Artifice]

Watch Kurt's coming out story on Glee. There are many gay storyline about unacceptance families that may gay convert him. It's more about the gay conversion scene that gay coming out, but most of the gay storyline have some variation of family trying to change him or some parents while disapprove still accept him in the end. I see it hundreds of times already. 

 

What? Kurt's father never tried to convert Kurt straight. He wasn't just supportive of his coming out of the closet he was completely unsurprised by it.

 

edit: Besides which...that really was not what I was singling out about my favorite part of the story, at all.