1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Addictress]

Statistics are irrelevant. You don't need to dispute biological differences in order to want fair treatment for minorities including women based on merits other than physical. I never said to portray all women as GI Joes. I used Rogue One because she doesn't look like she's carrying heavy stuff, she's simply a badass protagonist who's over the age of 30, not a model....basically a willful hero, regardless of physical limitations. Women can also be the protagonist of a financial thriller. A legal thriller. Whatever the f*.

Secondly, reality is shaped by media. Media is also shaped by reality. Therefore, to intervene in this circle you must initiate change in media. You existentially birth a new reality into existence through the world of media. You underestimate the subconscious influence this has. Also its popularity. Star Wars is the biggest media establishment and it has adopted this protocol. Dudebros eventually will run out of room to easily deselect whatever does not jive with their worldview. With discomfort, they will question why they've suddenly become a cultural minority. It is an invasion of the cultural space through the mandate of content creation.

[Witch Cocktor]

Opposition ? Most of the responses in this thread are individual anecdotal personal experiences. At least I had the sense to look up some research conducted by people with credibility instead of relying on personal anecdotes to form my world view.

 

Wow, you posted some links to researches that strengthen your opinion, yet most likely, had no interest in searching for results that'd possibly collide with your opinion. Bravo, clap clap, your opinion is much better now.

 

Even so, whenever you post a research, you have to be critical on the research at hand, whether it's to prove your own point or not. 

[Artona]

Wow, you posted some links to researches that strengthen your opinion, yet most likely, had no interest in searching for results that'd possibly collide with your opinion. Bravo, clap clap, your opinion is much better now.

 

Even so, whenever you post a research, you have to be critical on the research at hand, whether it's to prove your own point or not. 

Sorry, but BayonetHipshot already did much more than you. And yes, that makes his opinion better - because he has something to back up his statement. 
But this is notion about method, not "ad rem".

[Jedi Comedian]

And this is why I nuked my two threads. I don't regret it.

[Addictress]

Setting: the year is 2020. Successful invasion led by 1 JJ Abrams and Biower has made it so the Majority of games and films have equal representation of minorities.

Dudebro options:

1. Close their eyes until they age and die. Fresh impressionable humans take their place.
2. Resist and start a counter revolution led by Michael Bay
3. End up watching Star Wars reluctantly but watching anyways because it's facking Star Wars, and also, that side character chick was kinda hot. Then they discover they can enjoy movies even tho it's not them at the helm because the story is still good and side characters can also be hot. See: what minority audiences have always done.

[lynroy]

Setting: the year is 2020. Successful invasion led by 1 JJ Abrams and Biower has made it so the Majority of games and films have equal representation of minorities.

Dudebro options:

1. Close their eyes until they age and die. Fresh impressionable humans take their place.
2. Resist and start a counter revolution led by Michael Bay
3. End up watching Star Wars reluctantly but watching anyways because it's facking Star Wars, and also, that side character chick was kinda hot. Then they discover they can enjoy movies even tho it's not them at the helm because the story is still good and side characters can also be hot. See: what minority audiences have always done.

Okay, that made me laugh really hard.

[Jedi Comedian]

I shall never understand why homophobes are called "dudebros". I think pansybros would be a better name, considering how offended they get.

[Jedi Comedian]

Setting: the year is 2020. Successful invasion led by 1 JJ Abrams and Biower has made it so the Majority of games and films have equal representation of minorities.

Dudebro options:

1. Close their eyes until they age and die. Fresh impressionable humans take their place.
2. Resist and start a counter revolution led by Michael Bay
3. End up watching Star Wars reluctantly but watching anyways because it's facking Star Wars, and also, that side character chick was kinda hot. Then they discover they can enjoy movies even tho it's not them at the helm because the story is still good and side characters can also be hot. See: what minority audiences have always done.

I don't need to identify myself 100% with ANY character to enjoy a movie/book/whatever work of fiction, why do they?

BTW, I don't give a "you know what" about percentages, the overwhelming mayority nor the underwhelming minority, so I am neither a phobe nor a SJW.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't need to identify myself 100% with ANY character to enjoy a movie/book/whatever work of fiction, why do they?

BTW, I don't give a "you know what" about percentages, the overwhelming mayority nor the underwhelming minority, so I am neither a phobe nor a SJW.

 

If you look at the posts in this thread, almost all of them talk about how their personal experiences is something that should be used to make a video game. Making a believable world is irrelevant to them, you have to identify with some headcannoned fiction-kin and have some personal experience related to it instead of just playing the game or watching the movie purely for entertainment and not to be lectured on.

 

Stating percentages that were the result of multiple researches done by qualified scholars is homophobia ? What's next ? Criticizing and disagreeing with women is misogyny ? Wanting to have actual facts instead of personal anecdotes when it comes to the trans movement is transphobia ? Being critical of immigration policies is racism ? Having dreadlocks and wearing Indian headgear is cultural appropriation ? Just wanting to have fun while playing games and watching movies instead of wanting to be lectured to is hateful ?

 

The depths you people sink to amaze me sometimes.

[Jedi Comedian]

If you look at the posts in this thread, almost all of them talk about how their personal experiences is something that should be used to make a video game. Making a believable world is irrelevant to them, you have to identify with some headcannoned fiction-kin and have some personal experience related to it instead of just playing the game or watching the movie purely for entertainment and not to be lectured on.

The fact that the number of gay chars I like in fiction can be counted with the fingers of a single hand proves my point.

[Witch Cocktor]

If you look at the posts in this thread, almost all of them talk about how their personal experiences is something that should be used to make a video game.

Video games are art. Art usually stems from emotions and personal experiences, not statistics and research.

[daveliam]

Fyi, if your ass is chapped, you should consider using lube next time. Vaseline is cheap.

 

So research done by academics and organizations who specialize in doing research is not factual and is misinterpretation of data but the anecdotal personal experiences are valid and should be used as a basis to create game settings ? So the data is not accurate but your anecdotal personal experiences are accurate ? Anecdotal fee-fees are better ?

 

<snip>

 

Why don't you actually read the stuff you posted, then.  Because it specifically states not to interpret it the way that you did.  And the researchers themselves are the ones who call it flawed.

 

FFS, if you are going to play pseudo-intellectual, at least shoot for the "psuedo" part of it.  You're embarrassing yourself with your internet tough-guy schtick.

 

Wow, you posted some links to researches that strengthen your opinion, yet most likely, had no interest in searching for results that'd possibly collide with your opinion. Bravo, clap clap, your opinion is much better now.

 

Even so, whenever you post a research, you have to be critical on the research at hand, whether it's to prove your own point or not. 

 

The research doesn't even support his argument.  That's the kicker.  But he's too dense to figure that out.

 

Sorry, but BayonetHipshot already did much more than you. And yes, that makes his opinion better - because he has something to back up his statement. 
But this is notion about method, not "ad rem".

 

Except for the part where he posted a link to studies that don't actually say what he thinks they say.  But, yeah, other than that, he did a great job......

[Dean_the_Young]

It's rare to see a gay character in a shounen that is not a pervert or effeminate. It's usually more of seinen where you can find these characters.

 

I would actually welcome evil gay characters if being gay is just a part of them, not their identity. There are enough examples of good alignment characters to balance it out. This is why I would welcome someone who is selfish and would let people die if it doesn't affect them like Morrigan or someone like Solas. Seeing how Solas was very well received among the fans, I don't think making him a depraved bisexual but it would offer a different relationship than the ones we typically have. I don't personally like Solas, but it's a very interesting romance that Bioware has never had before, someone who is clearly a villain and not even ambiguous like Morrigan in DAO. It doesn't matter the sexual orientation, I would welcome more villainous relationship in the future, even if it means I have to kill that person. 

 

I'd be uncomfortable/wary of a gay villain because I think it would be extremely easy for the sexuality to become part of their identity. Villains are often flamboyant and over the top- especially the scenery chewing villains like the Reapers or that Dragon Age uses- and so it'd be all to easy for it to be seen as 'the evil gay,' intentionally or not.

 

I think it'd work best, or at least best avoid the stereotypes, if the sexuality was a humanizing element. Say you have a cold and hard villain- not a frothing fanatic or a sociopathic radical, but a more subdued and reserved person who's doing things out of a view of hard necessity. In that case, the sexuality- any expression of care, really- becomes a humanizing element and expression of care for someone, proving they have emotions and feelings.

 

In fact, it could be a good part of making that villain a more personal antagonist- where you kill their lover in the course of a battle, and their anger/grief makes an impersonal antagonism personal as they turn their attention towards you.

[Addictress]

I don't have the desire to educate some 15-year-old about things. Just remember you saw my username when you come of age. Byes.

[Malthier]

What can I say, an outcast dalish and the like doesn't seem that weird to me in a game full of dragons and witches. That said, I can account for that strange occurrence with the same reasoning I came up with for Bioware making four out of five romanceable players bi. Its actually the same reason you gave, player convenience. For lore sharing and storytelling, as far as the weird occurrences you are talking about. You're right in that I didn't complain about that, because that was expected, and it to me is far less of a crime than making people bisexual because the developers saw it as a convenience. 

 

it might not but her being a dalish blood mage is given plenty of recognition as weird by the story itself. and the problem with your claims of unbelievability remain. four bisexuals in a room is something that actually factually happens in real life. meaning that the word "unrealistic" is more than a bit frivolous. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The fact that the number of gay chars I like in fiction can be counted with the fingers of a single hand proves my point.

 

So ? I don't have a interest in gay characters, I am only interested in well written characters. Their sexuality is irrelevant. Story, character and plot come first.

 

Why do I think this way ? Because I hate being lectured when I am entertaining myself. I am not in a lecture hall, I am not in a sermon, I am playing a game or reading a comic or watching a movie. I do it to have fun and to relax, not to be lectured.

 

The best example I can give is Bioware & Beamdog versus CDProjektRed.

 

Bioware made massive fuss about Krem, about how he is transgender and how they are charting new ground. In game, part of our interactions involve being lectured on by Iron Bull and Krem.

 

Beamdog made a fuss about having a trans and their developer stated outright that it is their goal to produce social justice games and in game, that trans character is pretty lame with a lousy backstory.

 

CDProjektRed in Witcher 3 had a NPC that the protagonist, Geralt can meet. This NPC is in deep sh*t and requests for help. Geralt can question him further and he will reveal that he is homosexual. Geralt's reply was that its no big deal and he thought this NPC is an actual monster or something.

 

Compare and contrast the approach taken. Bioware and Beamdog spend their resources to make characters to lecture the player and push a narrative. Storytelling and character quality be damned. By contrast, CDPR made an interest NPC who had a side quest to give who happens to be gay. No lecturing and no narrative pushing involved.

 

Another instance of this can be seen with Ciri, one of the pivotal characters in Witcher 3. The player gets the option to choose her sexuality but there was no lecturing involved and no narrative pushing taking place. Its just a series of well executed dialogue.

 

I like good characters who happen to be gay or trans. I don't like gay or trans or even straight characters who get right up in my face to lecture me on stuff. F*ck that sh*t. I don't like anyone trying to lecture me when I am trying to have fun, especially when the lecturing is done by people who don't lecture or teach for a living. I dislike preachy fiction.

 

If people ask me IRL what do I think about whatever kind of sexuality, my response will be:- "I'm indifferent because its not my business who you have sex with or how you have sex unless it involves children and non-consensual sex. Then its my business." That's how it is in games, movies and comics too. Stop lecturing me on stuff and keep your sexual escapades to yourself.

 

Video games are art. Art usually stems from emotions and personal experiences, not statistics and research.

 

Video games can have artistic elements but at the end of the day, video games are video games, not art. Art is art.

 

 

I'd be uncomfortable/wary of a gay villain because I think it would be extremely easy for the sexuality to become part of their identity.

 

Don't care. If the villain is well written, the fact they like having sex with men is irrelevant. But others here want have it the other way around.

 

A good example is the Pied Piper in the CW Flash TV show. The villain and the actor playing him is gay but I don't care because no lecturing, no sermon, no preaching is involved. Pied Piper is just a well written villain played by an excellent actor.

[Jedi Comedian]

If you look at the posts in this thread, almost all of them talk about how their personal experiences is something that should be used to make a video game. Making a believable world is irrelevant to them, you have to identify with some headcannoned fiction-kin and have some personal experience related to it instead of just playing the game or watching the movie purely for entertainment and not to be lectured on.

Stating percentages that were the result of multiple researches done by qualified scholars is homophobia ? What's next ? Criticizing and disagreeing with women is misogyny ? Wanting to have actual facts instead of personal anecdotes when it comes to the trans movement is transphobia ? Being critical of immigration policies is racism ? Having dreadlocks and wearing Indian headgear is cultural appropriation ? Just wanting to have fun while playing games and watching movies instead of wanting to be lectured to is hateful ?

The depths you people sink to amaze me sometimes.

I wasn't accusing you of homophobia, I simply meant I don't care about percentages, in both real life and fiction, heck I would have no problem if Cortez was the only gay LI in ME, or if there was a single gay LI (or none) in DA.

[Artona]

 

Except for the part where he posted a link to studies that don't actually say what he thinks they say.  But, yeah, other than that, he did a great job......

 

As I said - method. 

 

 

 

Setting: the year is 2020. Successful invasion led by 1 JJ Abrams and Biower has made it so the Majority of games and films have equal representation of minorities.

Dudebro options:

1. Close their eyes until they age and die. Fresh impressionable humans take their place.
2. Resist and start a counter revolution led by Michael Bay
3. End up watching Star Wars reluctantly but watching anyways because it's facking Star Wars, and also, that side character chick was kinda hot. Then they discover they can enjoy movies even tho it's not them at the helm because the story is still good and side characters can also be hot. See: what minority audiences have always done. 

Firstly - not only J.J. and Bioware can use propaganda. Secondly - what is "equal representation of minorities"? And finally - every action in history is followed by reaction. So, as soon as Hollywood those "dudebros", or whatever you call them, have money in their pockets, they'll start producing movies for dudebros. And games for dudebros. So, yeah. 

[Malthier]

And relying on the reflexes of pop zeitgeist instead of looking at it analytically.

 

oh give me break. i wish i had a nickel for every person on the internet who tries to make themselves feel superior by describing their position as analytical.

[Addictress]

Softening clarification : I'm too addicted to solavellan smut to rationally say all the things I want to say.

But when you see Marauder Shields as you grow older, you will realize
I was right.

[Witch Cocktor]

Video games are video games, not art.

 

How is it NOT art? It's a product of numerous artists.

[Jedi Comedian]

So ? I don't have a interest in gay characters, I am only interested in well written characters. Their sexuality is irrelevant. Story, character and plot come first.

Why do I think this way ? Because I hate being lectured when I am entertaining myself ? I am not in a lecture hall, I am not in a sermon, I am playing a game or reading a comic or watching a movie. I do it to have fun and to relax, not to be lectured.

The best example I can give is Bioware & Beamdog versus CDProjektRed.

Bioware made massive fuss about Krem, about how he is transgender and how they are charting new ground. In game, part of our interactions involve being lectured on by Iron Bull and Krem.

Beamdog made a fuss about having a trans and their developer stated outright that it is their goal to produce social justice games and in game, that trans character is pretty lame with a lousy backstory.

CDProjektRed in Witcher 3 had a NPC that the protagonist, Geralt can meet. This NPC is in deep sh*t and requests for help. Geralt can question him further and he will reveal that he is homosexual. Geralt's reply was that its no big deal and he thought this NPC is an actual monster or something.

Compare and contrast the approach taken. Bioware and Beamdog spend their resources to make characters to lecture the player and push a narrative. Storytelling and character quality be damned. By contrast, CDPR made an interest NPC who had a side quest to give who happens to be gay. No lecturing and no narrative pushing involved.

Another instance of this can be seen with Ciri, one of the pivotal characters in Witcher 3. The player gets the option to choose her sexuality but there was no lecturing involved and no narrative pushing taking place. Its just a series of well executed dialogue.

I like good characters who happen to be gay or trans. I don't like gay or trans or even straight characters who get right up in my face to lecture me on stuff. F*ck that sh*t. I don't like anyone trying to lecture me when I am trying to have fun, especially when the lecturing is done by people who don't lecture or teach for a living.


Video games are video games, not art.

You misunderstand me, I ALSO like well-written characters, regardess of who they bed, I don't like nor need to be lectured about anything as well. And my opinion is the same concerning Mislav, who I actually find a well done side character (my opinion about Dorian however is not so positive).

[Bayonet Hipshot]

How is it NOT art? It's a product of numerous artists.

 

I have edited my response. Here it is :- Video games can have artistic elements but at the end of the day, video games are video games, not art. Art is art.

 

I wasn't accusing you of homophobia, I simply meant I don't care about percentages, in both real life and fiction, heck I would have no problem if Cortez was the only gay LI in ME, or if there was a single gay LI (or none) in DA.

 

You misunderstand me, I ALSO like well-written characters, regardess of who they bed, I don't like nor need to be lectured about anything as well. And my opinion is the same concerning Mislav, who I actually find a well done side character (my opinion about Dorian however is not so positive).

 

Good to find a kindred spirit amongst the insanity here.

[Malthier]

Stating percentages that were the result of multiple researches done by qualified scholars is homophobia ? What's next ? Criticizing and disagreeing with women is misogyny ? Wanting to have actual facts instead of personal anecdotes when it comes to the trans movement is transphobia ? Being critical of immigration policies is racism ? Having dreadlocks and wearing Indian headgear is cultural appropriation ? Just wanting to have fun while playing games and watching movies instead of wanting to be lectured to is hateful ?

 

 

 

no. but reading all of this into a comment that had nothing to do with most of it and then accusing someone of stooping to depths based on positions you plucked from your imagination and foisted upon them makes you a bit of an *******. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

no. but reading all of this into a comment that had nothing to do with most of it and then accusing someone of stooping to depths based on positions you plucked from your imagination and foisted upon them makes you a bit of an *******. 

 

Confession time - Sometimes I like to release stress by being a dick. This is one of those moments.

 

As I said - method. 

 

Firstly - not only J.J. and Bioware can use propaganda. Secondly - what is "equal representation of minorities"? And finally - every action in history is followed by reaction. So, as soon as Hollywood those "dudebros", or whatever you call them, have money in their pockets, they'll start producing movies for dudebros. And games for dudebros. So, yeah. 

 

Some people are not aware that actions have consequences, sometimes consequences that they don't like. A classic example is comic books. Since many of them decided to be politically correct preachy sermon SJW devices, their sales have tanked. Why do you think there is one reboot attempt after another by the big guns ? Meanwhile, manga continues to flourish.