1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Battlebloodmage]

I said at the time Witcher 2 came out.

There's one in 3. Mislav. And that's it. But very well - 50% of gay men in Witcher are despicable rapists.

I feel like Deja Vu when people talking about Dorian and Steve and how representation is 50%. Between a negative and postive stereotype, negative stereotypes would tend to stick out more, I guess, and it makes a bigger impression in general. Half is not always half, and people are more sensitive when they feel like the character represent them, so their behaviors would be under more scrutiny. 

 

Just a comment from the peanut gallery.

[General TSAR]

*sigh* he certainly has a lot of stereotypical homosexual traits without any confirmation that he is or isn't homosexual.

Sounds like you yourself are stereotyping. 

 

Ironic.

[Witch Cocktor]

Sounds like you yourself are stereotyping. 

 

Ironic.

 

Ugh, it's like you people want to aggravate people instead of have a discussion.

One day stereotypes are not good or bad, the next day '' stop stereotyping!!!! ''

One day stereotypes have some truth to them, the next day '' haha now u the one stereotyping gay men how ironic ''

[daveliam]

I feel like Deja Vu when people talking about Dorian and Steve and how representation is 50%. Between a negative and postive stereotype, negative stereotypes would tend to stick out more, I guess, and it makes a bigger impression in general. Half is not always half, and people are more sensitive when they feel like the character represent them, so their behaviors would be under more scrutiny. 

 

Just a comment from the peanut gallery.

 

That's a fair point.  I don't think that TW has a problem with gay stereotypes.  Because there are only two characters.  I didn't like that, for a while, the only gay character in the universe was a mincing gay rapist.  It wasn't about the way that TW represents gays (at least from my argument).  It was about settings that have one gay character and that character is a gay stereotype villain.  And for one game, that was the case with TW. 

 

Sounds like you yourself are stereotyping. 

 

Ironic.

 

Barf.  The only thing I hate more than aggressive trolling is passive aggressive smug trolling.  At least own it. 

[SnakeCode]

Have you lost your mind?  You are normally rationale.  Why are you being such an aggressive douche right now?  NO ONE said that there aren't multiple gay characters who aren't villains.  MOST gay characters aren't villains.  Stop.  Breath.  And read before you respond.  You are literally making **** up and then getting offended by the **** you made up yourself.

 

Now we're name calling?? I actually used to think you were a decent poster.

 

 

Again though, a villainous character having certain traits is not saying the traits themselves are bad. There are tonnes of macho villains as well. There are fiendishly intelligent villains, there are villains with a moral code. It's such a leap in logic to suggest that a stereotypically gay character being a villain means the writers are saying stereotypically gay traits are bad.

 

It's even more ridiculous because people are taking things that aren't in any way unique to gay villains (like being creepy in a sexual way) and using that to justify this stance that "gay villains are made to look creepy BECAUSE they are gay." Would Dethmold be any less creepy if his sex slave was a woman? No? Then what is the problem exactly?

[Biotic Apostate]

I feel like Deja Vu when people talking about Dorian and Steve and how representation is 50%. Between a negative and postive stereotype, negative stereotypes would tend to stick out more, I guess, and it makes a bigger impression in general. Half is not always half, and people are more sensitive when they feel like the character represent them, so their behaviors would be under more scrutiny. 

 

Just a comment from the peanut gallery.

The outrage about Dethmold happened after 2 was released, and he was literally, the only gay character in witcher (or even the only non-straight man). They addressed this in 3 with Mislav, but the bad taste is still there.

[General TSAR]

 

Ugh, it's like you people want to aggravate people instead of have a discussion.

One day stereotypes are not good or bad, the next day '' stop stereotyping!!!! ''

One day stereotypes have some truth to them, the next day '' haha now u the one stereotyping gay men how ironic ''

Maybe you shouldn't generalize behaviors and appearance as being stereotypical.

 

What's to say Him isn't metrosexual or transgender or simply doesn't give a flying fvck and does whatever he feels like? 

[Witch Cocktor]

Maybe you shouldn't generalize behaviors and appearance as being stereotypical.

 

What's to say Him isn't metrosexual or transgender or simply doesn't give a flying fvck and does whatever he feels like? 

Whats to say Him isn't homosexual? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I said at the time Witcher 2 came out.

There's one in 3. Mislav. And that's it. But very well - 50% of gay men in Witcher are despicable rapists.

 

So you saw 2 gay men in Witcher and decided to conclude that the majority of gay men in Witcher are despicable rapists. Talk about a bad sample size.

 

Exactly.  I've said it before.  If Meredith had a line or two mentioning an ex-girlfriend, that'd be fine.  I would happily still fight her to the death and would still recognize her as a "good villain".  I'd have no issue with Solas being a bisexual villain, either. 

 

The issue isn't having gay people as villains.  It's having all of the gay people be villains.  Or it's having the gay villain be made "more creepy" by highlighting the 'deviant lifestyle' by having them rape men or be a predator for small children.  When that happens, then I'm not thrilled.  Because that's been the exact type of narrative that has caused so many of the issues with sexuality today.  But having a run-of-the-mill 'normal' villain happen to be gay?  Not an issue with that at all.  Obviously, not everyone will agree with me (because there isn't a topic on the planet that everyone will agree upon), but that's how I feel about it. 

 

In fact, I'd welcome a character like Loghain or Meredith or Solas be gay in the next game.  An antagonist who is interesting and compelling and just happens to be gay?  That'd be cool actually.

 

How do you know all the gay people in Witcher are villains ? You only saw 2 of them. Yet you accuse me of bad statistics.
 

 

Oh so we're moving the goalposts now. It's gone from gay characters to "gay men" who are "major characters"

 

Is that because you know full well there are multiple gay characters that aren't villains?

 

This is the modus operandi of the SJW.  They only care about the narrative, never the facts.

 

Their narrative is that gay people in fiction are somehow magically equivalent to gay people in reality, even though there is no evidence to support this. Therefore, fictional gay characters must be given the special snowflake treatment for no good reason and we will label those who disagree with our approach as homophobes.

 

Which is coincidentally a lot like saying that the god in a fictional book is somehow magically real in the real world even though there is no evidence to support this. Therefore, we need to give the fictional god the special snowflake treatment for no good reason and we will label those who disagree with our approach as blasphemous heathens.

 

I mean, there is no other way to explain how SJWs fail to understand that fictional people are not related to real people in any way. Its like saying we are related to the people we make up in our dreams. Its a lot like the religious who fail to comprehend that fictional scripture is fictional.

 

Have you lost your mind?  You are normally rationale.  Why are you being such an aggressive douche right now?  NO ONE said that there aren't multiple gay characters who aren't villains.  MOST gay characters aren't villains.  Stop.  Breath.  And read before you respond.  You are literally making **** up and then getting offended by the **** you made up yourself.

 

Fyi, its rational, not rationale. He is not being an aggressive douche. You were the one from the beginning who talks about how your real life anecdotal experience must somehow interfere with the characterizations of fictional people in video games, even though there is no reason why this should be the case. Next, you disregard research that suggest that the percentage of homosexuals and trans folks are minuscule compared to the percentage of heterosexuals because "bad statistics". Later, you contradict yourself by saying that the Witcher universe only have gays that are villainous even though you have only see two of them.  Oh wait a minute, Ciri can be a lesbian. So Ciri is evil now ? Finally, you call him a douche for trying to make you see reason. Go figure.

 

 

 

Maybe you shouldn't generalize behaviors and appearance as being stereotypical.

 

What's to say Him isn't metrosexual or transgender or simply doesn't give a flying fvck and does whatever he feels like? 

 

 

Actually you can make the argument that since Him is a demon, he has no sexuality whatsoever because there doesn't seem to be a female version of Him. Which means he really does not give a flying f*ck and does whatever he feels like because he represents Chaos.

 

Shame on Witch Cocktor for trying to appropriate human sexuality onto a demon.

[Battlebloodmage]

The outrage about Dethmold happened after 2 was released, and he was literally, the only gay character in witcher (or even the only non-straight man). They addressed this in 3 with Mislav, but the bad taste is still there.

Is it the order it happens then? It was a fair point back when TW2 was released, but we're talking about now at this moment, and both companies have different types of characters contrasting between ME3 and DAI and TW2 and TW3. I only have a problem with how he was killed but not that he was gay, to be honest. 

 

I'm just finding how people use the half argument to justify the gay characters in Bioware vs half to justify the gay characters in TW series to be similar and yet get different responses from the same people. 

[Biotic Apostate]

So you saw 2 gay men in Witcher and decided to conclude that the majority of gay men in Witcher are despicable rapists. Talk about a bad sample size.

I never said that. My problem is that the first and for a while the only gay man they had in the series was made to look even worse, because of his sexuality. SnakeCode said that it didn't matter that Dethmold was a gay villain, because there are 'multiple gay characters that aren't villains.' So I corrected him, because there's just one.

[SnakeCode]

I never said that. My problem is that the first and for a while the only gay man they had in the series was made to look even worse, because of his sexuality. SnakeCode said that it didn't matter that Dethmold was a gay villain, because there are 'multiple gay characters that aren't villains.' So I corrected him, because there's just one.

 

Gay character =/= Gay man

[daveliam]

Now we're name calling?? I actually used to think you were a decent poster.

 

 

Again though, a villainous character having certain traits is not saying the traits themselves are bad. There are tonnes of macho villains as well. There are fiendishly intelligent villains, there are villains with a moral code. It's such a leap in logic to suggest that a stereotypically gay character being a villain means the writers are saying stereotypically gay traits are bad.

 

It's even more ridiculous because people are taking things that aren't in any way unique to gay villains (like being creepy in a sexual way) and using that to justify this stance that "gay villains are made to look creepy BECAUSE they are gay." Would Dethmold be any less creepy if his sex slave was a woman? No? Then what is the problem exactly?

 

Yeah, I used to think the same about you, which is why I'm surprised that you are being so rude and aggressive here.  You're whole "Name one.  Just name one.  I bet you can't!" nonsense came out of left field.  I'm happy to have a calm and rationale conversation with you, but not when you come at me like that and then ignore when I clarify what you've misunderstood about my statement.  It's like you came in looking for a fight and then act all offended when you get one. 

 

Your whole argument works really well -- in a vacuum.  But we're not in an acontextual vacuum.  Context matters.  You are either really ill informed about the way that gay men have been perceived historically in the media (which I doubt because you are a smart guy) or you are being willfully obtuse by pretending you don't understand the context to try to strengthen your argument.  Context plays a huge role in the way that a character has been perceived.  Are there macho masculine villains?  Of course there are.  There have been since the dawn of media.  But, also since the dawn of media, there have been macho masculine heroes as well.  There has always been a balance between them.  Now look at feminized "gay stereotypes".  Have there have those villains?  Yep, since the beginning of time.  But have there also been heroes like those?  Maybe?  I genuinely can't think of any characters like that who are the heroes.  I'm sure there are a few examples floating around, but you'd be hard pressed to find them. 

 

That's why "mincing gay stereotype" is associated with villain.  Look at Disney.  Look at older video games.  Look at old Hollywood.  It's pervasive in the culture and that's part of the reason why we deal with real world issues.  People pretend like video games are just video games and they have no influence on real life.  But that's not true.  There are real implications here.  To pretend otherwise is insulting and makes you look foolish.

 

Again, I'm not saying that I think that gay characters can't be the villains.  In fact, before you started chiming in, I actually said that I'd welcome it more often.  The problem is when it's not balanced out.  The Witcher is a perfect example of this.  I hated that the only gay guy in the universe was a gay stereotype villain.  But then the next game came out and they added in another character and, lo and behold, I don't complain about that setting anymore.  Because that little baby step is all it takes for me to say, "Okay, I misread that situation". 

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Have you lost your mind?  You are normally rationale.  Why are you being such an aggressive douche right now?  NO ONE said that there aren't multiple gay characters who aren't villains.  MOST gay characters aren't villains.  Stop.  Breath.  And read before you respond.  You are literally making **** up and then getting offended by the **** you made up yourself.

gay people are evil tho

[Biotic Apostate]

Is it the order it happens then? It was a fair point back when TW2 was released, but we're talking about now at this moment, and both companies have different types of characters contrasting between ME3 and DAI and TW2 and TW3. I only have a problem with how he was killed but not that he was gay, to be honest. 

 

I'm just finding how people use the half argument to justify the gay characters in Bioware vs half to justify the gay characters in TW series to be similar and yet get different responses from the same people. 

That comment was poorly worded, I don't think CDPR has a pattern, my problem is with Dethmold alone.

[Biotic Apostate]

Gay character =/= Gay man

Now who's moving goalposts.

[daveliam]

gay people are evil tho

 

Hush you!

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I never said that. My problem is that the first and for a while the only gay man they had in the series was made to look even worse, because of his sexuality. SnakeCode said that it didn't matter that Dethmold was a gay villain, because there are 'multiple gay characters that aren't villains.' So I corrected him, because there's just one.

 

Gay character in the Witcher world =/= actual gay man in real life on Earth.

 

Indiana Jones =/= actual archeologist historian in real life on Earth.

 

Hawkeye =/= actual archer in real life on Earth.

 

Wonder Woman =/= actual women MMA fighters in real life on Earth.

 

TL;DR...

 

Fictional characters =/= real people in real life on planet Earth.

[SnakeCode]

The lack of self awareness is astounding, I haven't personally attacked anyone. But  i'm the one being rude and aggressive? By all means continue to be a hypocrite, but don't act all holier than thou when you do so, it's quite sickening.

[Battlebloodmage]

Hush you!

But gay people are evil tho

[Artona]

 

 

Your whole argument works really well -- in a vacuum.  But we're not in an acontextual vacuum.  Context matters.  You are either really ill informed about the way that gay men have been perceived historically in the media (which I doubt because you are a smart guy) or you are being willfully obtuse bypretending you don't understand the context to try to strengthen your argument.  Context plays a huge role in the way that a character has been perceived.

 

So the way gay people were potrayed in the past should shift somehow the way we portray them now? 

[straykat]

I can't think of any gay characters in old (50s/pre 50s) media.

 

I'm sure it was there, but I'd say the villains that really creeped people out were the "rapey" ones. Sometimes there was probably a racial or immigrant metaphor, I suppose. Like Nosferatu. Also, plenty of war movies (both WW1/WW2) would do this to Germans. Or German movies did it to Russians or Jews.

 

But gay? I don't know. I'll take your word for it, I guess. I don't watch Disney cartoons.

[Lady Artifice]

Outrage culture is a two sided coin. I see people reading offensiveness into things that don't really deserve it all the time. I see people accusing any portrayal of a black character that isn't characterized heroically as being nefariously stereotypical. I've seen people use offensiveness as a veil for their own personal dislike, and I've also seen people confuse the depiction of rape and violence with the endorsement of same. It's a problem I'd never deny.

 

However, on the other side, I see liberal mindedness automatically equated with SJW rhetoric, imagined extremism based on very little evidence, and very old and established academic terms and analyses dismissed based on an individual's associated of those terms with "SJW's."

 

When it comes to the debate about the frequency of stereotypically gay mannerism and gayness itself being associated with villains in stories, it's too absurd for description. The "sissy villain" is not a new or unknown thing.

 

The villain of Dune, at least the film version, is subject to characterization where his gayness is implicitly linked with disease and general grotesqueness.

 

The Maltese falcon features more than one villain who's implied to be gay as a way to contrast with the oh so manly Sam Spade.

 

King Xerxes from the 300 invading the hero's space was deliberately meant to make the boys in the audience uncomfortable because of the association with gay behavior--not made up. This was what the director described as the intention in an interview.

[OnePenguinNavy]

i have a better question - why should we give a damn about the portrayal of gay men in media?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yeah, I used to think the same about you, which is why I'm surprised that you are being so rude and aggressive here.  You're whole "Name one.  Just name one.  I bet you can't!" nonsense came out of left field.  I'm happy to have a calm and rationale conversation with you, but not when you come at me like that and then ignore when I clarify what you've misunderstood about my statement.  It's like you came in looking for a fight and then act all offended when you get one. 

 

Your whole argument works really well -- in a vacuum.  But we're not in an acontextual vacuum.  Context matters.  You are either really ill informed about the way that gay men have been perceived historically in the media (which I doubt because you are a smart guy) or you are being willfully obtuse by pretending you don't understand the context to try to strengthen your argument.  Context plays a huge role in the way that a character has been perceived.  Are there macho masculine villains?  Of course there are.  There have been since the dawn of media.  But, also since the dawn of media, there have been macho masculine heroes as well.  There has always been a balance between them.  Now look at feminized "gay stereotypes".  Have there have those villains?  Yep, since the beginning of time.  But have there also been heroes like those?  Maybe?  I genuinely can't think of any characters like that who are the heroes.  I'm sure there are a few examples floating around, but you'd be hard pressed to find them. 

 

That's why "mincing gay stereotype" is associated with villain.  Look at Disney.  Look at older video games.  Look at old Hollywood.  It's pervasive in the culture and that's part of the reason why we deal with real world issues.  People pretend like video games are just video games and they have no influence on real life.  But that's not true.  There are real implications here.  To pretend otherwise is insulting and makes you look foolish.

 

Again, I'm not saying that I think that gay characters can't be the villains.  In fact, before you started chiming in, I actually said that I'd welcome it more often.  The problem is when it's not balanced out.  The Witcher is a perfect example of this.  I hated that the only gay guy in the universe was a gay stereotype villain.  But then the next game came out and they added in another character and, lo and behold, I don't complain about that setting anymore.  Because that little baby step is all it takes for me to say, "Okay, I misread that situation". 

 

 

By your logic, we should be witnessing a couple of things in real life :-

 

1) A overwhelming rise in gun deaths across the globe due to the sheer number of fictional characters being killed in shooters.

 

2) A meteoric rise in rapes, vile sexual assaults and degradation of women due to the rise of animated pornography featuring fictional characters in various degrading situations.

 

3) A significant rise in vigilante activity due to the prevalence of fictional vigilante characters in video games, comics and movies.

 

Oh wait...None of those things actually happen....

 

Newsflash - Video games do not influence the behavior of children and make them violent. This has been proven time and again by multiple studies.

 

If we use rational and sensible inferencing, then we can say that if video games do not make kids go violent, then they should make adults develop any form of oppressive behavior towards others.
 

 

So the way gay people were portrayed in the past should shift somehow the way we portray them now? 

 

Yep, that's the attitude we should have. An eye for an eye, even though the perpetrators of these problems are dead and the people alive today only have the misfortune of perhaps being related to them. Love that compassion and empathy at display.