1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

In most cases, the release (even design) of a game ahead the market research.

The point is that it is an art in which made by comission. Not an art which made the artist only for his own satisfaction.

No one commissions games, gaming developers make what they think people will buy, and what they envision to hopefully be a game they can be proud of. If people want to see games as art, they need to realize the difference between commissioned work, where the actual commissioner is the sole individual that has say on the piece, and is the only one that can say how much artistic freedom that the artist can take, and non commissioned work, that is an expression of the artist, as well as a product.

 

This is celebrated in other forms of art, but when it comes to games, the artists are much less free to be allowed their creative freedom. Which is sad. The point is, if people want to start harping on about how gaming is art, maybe they should start acting like it.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'd argue that the player of an RPG "expresses" themselves through video games a lot more than some rich guy telling a guy to paint his ceiling.

I agree, but the player isn't a commissioner, they're the buyer of a product.

[Addictress]

Not really, an artist dictates art, but it's their own art. A commission is a person trying to express through art by the hand of another. They aren't the artist but it is partly their expression. Games aren't commissions in the same way, as pointed out. When an artist is making a piece that they themselves want, it is their own commission. No one tells the commissioner that they shouldn't have requested a piece, so why should people tell the artist? If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it.

What happens if they keep making empty fetch quests and poorer quality RPGs but keep making more money and we can't refuse buying it because we're addicted to it

[Catilina]

Yes of course, but as the Colonel pointed out, it's still dictated by money, we live in a capitalist society after all. It's why games/books/films etc have a target audience, because most people are smart enough to know you can't please everyone, and trying to do so generally ends in failure.

 

They will gear their content towards those that are most likely to buy that content. It's why romance novels are advertised with women in mind and action films are geared towards a male audience primarily. It's not because they don't want other types of people to buy their product, but they will try to maximize sails from the demographic that is most likely to purchase that product.

 

Ofc, this is true. I did not say that my word will dictate. But this was the starting point:
 

Just saw this after reviewing the thread. If videogames are art, then how come so many people think they have a right to change how game developers want to make their art? No one felt the need to tell the Greeks to maybe sculpt and paint less naked dudes and make chicks actually look like chicks.

[DomeWing333]

I agree, but the player isn't a commissioner, they're the buyer of a product.

https://en.wikipedia...ommission_(art)

 

Sounds suspiciously like buying a product to me.

[Colonelkillabee]

What happens if they keep making empty fetch quests and poorer quality RPGs but keep making more money and we can't refuse buying it because we're addicted to it

They'll keep making poorer quality rpgs... Regardless of if people complain about it or not. If you don't want rpgs to become filled with fetch quests and the like, then stop buying them. If you're addicted to those games, then perhaps you don't dislike fetch quests as much as you claim. That is what the developer will see regardless of what you say online. If this weren't the case, then games wouldn't keep following this pattern.

 

When they see public opinion is backed by cash, they'll listen. Basically, they're calling your bluff.

[Colonelkillabee]

https://en.wikipedia...ommission_(art)

 

Sounds suspiciously like buying a product to me.

Except a commissioner gets total say of how a product is made. A non commissioning customer gets almost none.

[SnakeCode]

The one thing that blurs the line here of course is crowdfunded games, but even then it's someone saying "this is the game I want to make, if you like the sound of it please help to fund it's development." You have more sway than a regular paying customer, but it still isn't your game.

[Colonelkillabee]

The purpose of what I'm saying is this: Yes, you should voice your opinion. But some people get so worked up over their opinion and what they want that it becomes ridiculous. They get hostile, defensive, and start making assumptions about people that don't agree with their opinions or want what they want. Calling them dudebros and homophobes.

 

I express my opinion. I want games to have more diverse characters, yes, but I want them first and foremost to be written well, and I want the author to want to do this themselves, not because I want them to. I want this to happen naturally, so I refuse to demand it. And when the author and artist do these things, I reward them with my hard earned dollar. If they wonder why I am rewarding them with my particular purchase, they'll know why, because I will tell them online.

 

I will not accuse them or those that don't like what I like of being something they're not, and I will not show hostility to other customers, because I recognize that they are fellow customers, and that the artist should be allowed creative freedom if I want their work to remain a work of quality. And in the end it is their product, not mine, so why should I react with hostility, regardless of if they are showing in their games what I want or not? In the end, I have no reason to be hostile because this is not my expression, and I don't have to buy what I don't want to.

[DomeWing333]

Okay so..."Continue asking game developers for what you want. Just stop being jerks about it." That seem reasonable to everyone?

[Colonelkillabee]

Okay so..."Continue asking game developers for what you want. Just stop being jerks about it." That seem reasonable to everyone?

Exactly. Especially if people want games to truly be seen as an art form, and less of just a product for consumer consumption. Because that is what the average gamer treats it like.

[Battlebloodmage]

This thread's purpose is just to bring attention to a certain pattern that exist with Bioware games, and I just personally want more variety in how the characters being portrayed, although it gets derailed a bit, at least, everyone calmed down now. In term of romances, I wouldn't mind seeing people suggesting what kind of characters or archetype they want to see. It's not just about gay characters, but also straight, bi characters or whatever.

[Colonelkillabee]

As long as they keep making characters like Cassandra and Morrigan, I'm happy. Meaning strong females that will follow their own interests regardless of what my character wants. Merrill was like that too even if she was ditsy. She was still strong willed, though while I do adore her for some reason, despite being the type of character I tend to avoid (the whole little girl in a grown woman's body thing), she's an anomaly for me. I think I just like outcasts, lol.

 

Anyway, yea, continue making female characters basically, that don't revolve around me. As for "types", I'm not honestly sure, the archetype doesn't really matter much for me. It's more easier to say which types I personally don't want, and the only type that I really don't want to see anymore is the extremely promiscuous ones, be they male or female. Isabella would have been a much better character to me if they toned down just how slooty she was... it was rather gross in my opinion, same for Iron Bull.

 

There's promiscuity and then there's just being obscene. She has an actual itch in kirkwall named after her. That's ridiculous in my opinion. Promiscuous characters are fine, I love the curse like a sailor, rough "tom boy" hard drinking hotties, but I think they went too far with Isabella.

[Battlebloodmage]

As long as they keep making characters like Cassandra and Morrigan, I'm happy. Meaning strong females that will follow their own interests regardless of what my character wants. Merrill was like that too even if she was ditsy. She was still strong willed, though while I do adore her for some reason, despite being the type of character I tend to avoid (the whole little girl in a grown woman's body thing), she's an anomaly for me. I think I just like outcasts, lol.

 

Anyway, yea, continue making female characters basically, that don't revolve around me. As for "types", I'm not honestly sure, the archetype doesn't really matter much for me. It's more easier to say which types I personally don't want, and the only type that I really don't want to see anymore is the extremely promiscuous ones, be they male or female. Isabella would have been a much better character to me if they toned down just how slooty she was... it was rather gross in my opinion, same for Iron Bull.

 

There's promiscuity and then there's just being obscene. She has an actual itch in kirkwall named after her. That's ridiculous in my opinion. Promiscuous characters are fine, I love the curse like a sailor, rough "tom boy" hard drinking hotties, but I think they went too far with Isabella.

The young and innocent girls are very popular with gamers, characters like Liara and Bethany are pretty popular. Especially Liara, it could be because she has a big role in the trilogy. If you go by the waifu in Japanese games, the shy girls are usually the most popular one, I guess they give off the aura making people want to protect them. These characters are also the main LI in most Shounen anime. Personally, I prefer characters like Mikasa, someone who is a strong and can handle herself in a fight. I tend to like strong female characters, so the characters that I romanced are usually reflected that as well like Morrigan, Cassandra, Cait (Fallout 4). I'm just not into Jack, can't get pass the bald head, just too edgy for me, I guess. 

 

There's nothing wrong with being sexually liberated, but there's a point where it becomes too much for my taste, so I'm with you on that, that is why while I like Isabela, I can't romance her or Iron Bull. 

 

For me, in term of the guys, I have already described what I want, I want more romance in gay relationship, the guys I'm into are the guys they made that appealed to the women like Alistair and Cullen. Alistair is an adorkable character that give you flower. You know in films and movies, where the guys give flowers to the girls to calm them down or something, or Cullen a strong KISA, that have romance and passion in it where he cleans out the table and throw the inquisitor on it. You're straight, so I'm not sure if you can get what I mean, what I want is the kind of males you see in a romantic movie. There is a general lack of romance in the gay romance they write for gay relationship in general. If you watch Iron Bull's scenes, they're very jokey, people walking in on them having sex, Inquisitor can't walk for an entire day after sex, marriage is just a whatever, no cutscene or something like that with Cassandra. I like Cassandra because she's a hopeless romance, so she's just perfect for my inquisitor. I love romance in general. People assume that those who play romance is for sex and tell them to just jack off to porn or something, but it's more about the romantic story I can tell, how the characters end up together and how they will continue in the future. This is why it's not about the sex scenes, and I can't be with an asexual character, sex scene or not, because I can't imagine my character to be with someone in that type of relationship. My taste is more in line of what they give to the straight females, and it's not even about the grass is greener on the other side, it's because the types of characters I want are usually written to appeal to women like Alistair, Cullen, and Kaidan. 

[Catilina]

This thread's purpose is just to bring attention to a certain pattern that exist with Bioware games, and I just personally want more variety in how the characters being portrayed, although it gets derailed a bit, at least, everyone calmed down now. In term of romances, I wouldn't mind seeing people suggesting what kind of characters or archetype they want to see. It's not just about gay characters, but also straight, bi characters or whatever.

Various. I liked Fenris, Anders, and yes, also Zevran or Dorian, but i was a bit sad, that Cullen or Blackwall was not an option.

In Tevinter: a templar would be interesting.

[Colonelkillabee]

The young and innocent girls are very popular with gamers, characters like Liara and Bethany are pretty popular. Especially Liara, it could be because she has a big role in the trilogy. If you go by the waifu in Japanese games, the shy girls are usually the most popular one, I guess they give off the aura making people want to protect them. These characters are also the main LI in most Shounen anime. Personally, I prefer characters like Mikasa, someone who is a strong and can handle herself in a fight. I tend to like strong female characters, so the characters that I romanced are usually reflected that as well like Morrigan, Cassandra, Cait (Fallout 4). I'm just not into Jack, can't get pass the bald head, just too edgy for me, I guess. 

 

There's nothing wrong with being sexually liberated, but there's a point where it becomes too much for my taste, so I'm with you on that, that is why while I like Isabela, I can't romance her or Iron Bull. 

 

For me, in term of the guys, I have already described what I want, I want more romance in gay relationship, the guys I'm into are the guys they made that appealed to the women like Alistair and Cullen. Alistair is an adorkable character that give you flower. You know in films and movies, where the guy gives flowers to the girls to calm them down or something, or Cullen a strong KISA, that have romance and passion in it where he cleans out the table and throw the inquisitor on it. You're straight, so I'm not sure if you can get what I mean, what I want is the kind of males you see in a romantic movie. There is a general lack of romance in the gay romance they write for gay relationship in general. If you watch Iron Bull's scenes, they're very jokey, people walking in on them having sex, Inquisitor can't walk for an entire after sex, marriage is just a whatever, no cutscene or something like that with Cassandra. I like Cassandra because she's a hopeless romance, so she's just perfect for my inquisitor. I love romance in general. People assume that those who play romance is for sex and tell them to just jack off to porn or something, but it's more about the romantic story I can tell, how the characters end up together and how they will continue in the future. This is why it's not about the sex scenes, and I can't be with an asexual character, sex scene or not, because I can't imagine my character to be with someone in that type of relationship. My taste is more in line of what they give to the straight females, and it's not even about the grass is greener on the other side, it's because the types of characters I want are usually written to appeal to women like Alistair, Cullen, and Kaidan. 

Being straight's got nothing to do with it, I get what you mean from what you said about Cassandra, and because I share your tastes. I'd have said Allistair would be too dorky for me but that's because I'm thinking of him from a perspective that isn't someone who wants to romance him. When you think about Cassandra or Merrill, it's easy to see. I love romance myself, and they allowed you to have that buttery sort of thing with them. Morrigan too for a time, and it is earned rather than given. It would seem we have similar tastes

 

And looking back at the romances for gay guys and bi, yea I can see your point, I wouldn't much like them either.

 

I know about the japanese waifu stuff and all that innocent girl blah, I can't stand it normally. Characters that probably belong in Yuri, blech. Which just makes me liking Merrill even more humorous for me, lol. I liked that I could make her happy and be a friend and more to her when most people shun her away.

[Catilina]

[...]

For me, in term of the guys, I have already described what I want, I want more romance in gay relationship, the guys I'm into are the guys they made that appealed to the women like Alistair and Cullen. Alistair is an adorkable character that give you flower. You know in films and movies, where the guy gives flowers to the girls to calm them down or something, or Cullen a strong KISA, that have romance and passion in it where he cleans out the table and throw the inquisitor on it. You're straight, so I'm not sure if you can get what I mean, what I want is the kind of males you see in a romantic movie. There is a general lack of romance in the gay romance they write for gay relationship in general. If you watch Iron Bull's scenes, they're very jokey, people walking in on them having sex, Inquisitor can't walk for an entire after sex, marriage is just a whatever, no cutscene or something like that with Cassandra. I like Cassandra because she's a hopeless romance, so she's just perfect for my inquisitor. I love romance in general. People assume that those who play romance is for sex and tell them to just jack off to porn or something, but it's more about the romantic story I can tell, how the characters end up together and how they will continue in the future. This is why it's not about the sex scenes, and I can't be with an asexual character, sex scene or not, because I can't imagine my character to be with someone in that type of relationship. My taste is more in line of what they give to the straight females, and it's not even about the grass is greener on the other side, it's because the types of characters I want are usually written to appeal to women like Alistair, Cullen, and Kaidan. 

I like the way you write about it, I think, so I could never express romantic sentiments.  I do not write more about it more, I feel myself so idiot...and this is not even about a real romance!

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Why just open a brothel (Witcher style) for players to decide what type he/she likes?

[Catilina]

Why just open a brothel (Witcher style) for players to decide what type he/she likes?

Dragon Age have brothels too, and you can choose as well. True, there is no brothel in Skyhold. Oh well. It also Solas fault!

[Battlebloodmage]

 

Being straight's got nothing to do with it, I get what you mean from what you said about Cassandra, and because I share your tastes. I'd have said Allistair would be too dorky for me but that's because I'm thinking of him from a perspective that isn't someone who wants to romance him. When you think about Cassandra or Merrill, it's easy to see. I love romance myself, and they allowed you to have that buttery sort of thing with them. Morrigan too for a time, and it is earned rather than given. It would seem we have similar tastes 

 

And looking back at the romances for gay guys and bi, yea I can see your point, I wouldn't much like them either.

 

I know about the japanese waifu stuff and all that innocent girl blah, I can't stand it normally. Characters that probably belong in Yuri, blech. Which just makes me liking Merrill even more humorous for me, lol. I liked that I could make her happy and be a friend and more to her when most people shun her away.

I'm just saying it because when I talk about guys with my straight friends, they get uncomfortable even just some passing comments, so I usually try to avoid talking about how guys are appealing and attractive. Just don't want to offend anyone of course. lol. It has nothing to do with you. 

 

While gays and straight girls/lesbians and straight guys may have the same sexual targets, what they're looking for in a partner may be different. I can make a comparison between bara (gay manga for gay guys) and yaoi (gay manga for straight girls), but yaoi is usually focusing on emotion, story, and passion while bara is often more about raw and sexual appeal. Even aesthetic wise, the bara guys are more muscular while yaoi is more pretty boy types. I can't speak for the different between yuri for lesbians and yuri for straight guys since I don't have knowledge for it. This is why I bring up how I want gay romance to be written for straight girls, it's more of a tongue in cheeks comment, but these kinds of story focus on interaction and the romance behind the relationship. When a straight writer write a gay or lesbian relationship, I'm curious what is going through their head, are they drawing their inspiration from their experience, is there a difference between how they write a gay relationship vs a gay relationship? Would a straight relationship and a gay relationship be difference? One of the things I notice when reading yaoi is that there's often a girl in a relationship, everyone treating the guy as a girl, talking about how good looking he is, guys and girls fall for him, and the guy (the top) usually goes out of his way to protect his partner, and the only difference would be the gender. Since the writer is a straight female, the relationship is based on the gender role or relationship she has experience with. That is nothing new though, people write things they have experience with. When you watching a show like Cleveland's Show, you can tell that the writers are white, when all the references are from the white culture. In general, when writing a gay relationship, I'm wondering how a straight writer would write it. With a straight male writer especially, would they write them from how a straight guy would treat a girl? Do they have any experience or reference to base their story on when writing a gay relationship? Nothing's wrong with gay or straight writer write a story out of their sexual orientation. Cassandra is my canon file and my favorite romance in DAI, and she was written by David Gaider, a gay guy.

[Battlebloodmage]

Why just open a brothel (Witcher style) for players to decide what type he/she likes?

Because I like romance, not sex. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Being straight's got nothing to do with it, I get what you mean from what you said about Cassandra, and because I share your tastes. I'd have said Allistair would be too dorky for me but that's because I'm thinking of him from a perspective that isn't someone who wants to romance him. When you think about Cassandra or Merrill, it's easy to see. I love romance myself, and they allowed you to have that buttery sort of thing with them. Morrigan too for a time, and it is earned rather than given. It would seem we have similar tastes

 

And looking back at the romances for gay guys and bi, yea I can see your point, I wouldn't much like them either.

 

I know about the japanese waifu stuff and all that innocent girl blah, I can't stand it normally. Characters that probably belong in Yuri, blech. Which just makes me liking Merrill even more humorous for me, lol. I liked that I could make her happy and be a friend and more to her when most people shun her away.

I'm just saying it because when I talk about guys with my straight friends, they get uncomfortable even just some passing comments, so I usually try to avoid talking about how guys are appealing and attractive. Just don't want to offend anyone of course. lol. It has nothing to do with you. 

 

While gays and straight girls/lesbians and straight guys may have the same sexual targets, what they're looking for in a partner may be different. I can make a comparison between bara (gay manga for gay guys) and yaoi (gay manga for straight girls), but yaoi is usually focusing on emotion, story, and passion while bara is often more about raw and sexual appeal. Even aesthetic wise, the bara guys are more muscular while yaoi is more pretty boy types. I can't speak for the different between yuri for lesbians and yuri for straight guys since I don't have knowledge for it. This is why I bring up how I want gay romance to be written for straight girls, it's more of a tongue in cheeks comment, but these kinds of story focus on interaction and the romance behind the relationship. When a straight writer write a gay or lesbian relationship, I'm curious what is going through their head, are they drawing their inspiration from their experience, is there a difference between how they write a gay relationship vs a gay relationship? Would a straight relationship and a gay relationship be difference? One of the things I notice when reading yaoi is that there's often a girl in a relationship, everyone treating the guy as a girl, talking about how good looking he is, guys and girls fall for him, and the guy (the top) usually goes out of his way to protect his partner, and the only difference would be the gender. Since the writer is a straight female, the relationship is based on the gender role or relationship she has experience with. That is nothing new though, people write things they have experience with. When you watching a show like Cleveland's Show, you can tell that the writers are white, when all the references are from the white culture. In general, when writing a gay relationship, I'm wondering how a straight writer would write it. With a straight male writer especially, would they write them from how a straight guy would treat a girl? Do they have any experience or reference to base their story on when writing a gay relationship? Nothing's wrong with gay or straight writer write a story out of their sexual orientation. Cassandra is my canon file and my favorite romance in DAI, and she was written by David Gaider, a gay guy.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Because I like romance, not sex.

What's wrong about being a poonhandler? They're other people who just want sex so a brothel can provide for those who want sex. I wanna be a male sex machine to give the ladies some good lovin'.

[Colonelkillabee]

It's tough to say, because the first thing that comes to mind as a straight man when thinking about a relationship for gay men is the dynamic between them, if there's a "girl" in the relationship or if there's just two guys. And when I say that, I guess I mean submissive and dominant, except then I remember that in heterosexual relationships, the man can be submissive, or they could both be on equal ground and switch up submissive and dominant, in more than just sex.

 

So, my conclusion would be that a straight person should write a gay romance the way they'd write a straight one. I know there are differences that a gay person probably would have in a similarly written romance, same as how men and women differ in how they write romances sometimes. I don't think they're that important. It may not be perfect, but as a roleplayer and amateur writer, any time I write a character, I just stop trying to write them from a "woman's perspective" even though that's kinda the point of roleplaying. I don't focus on what makes them different from me, and more times than not, they're far more successful than a character I tried writing from a different perspective I am unfamiliar with. They always come off as a character trying to be written by someone unfamiliar.

 

Hell, I didn't even know that Cassandra's romance author was gay, and I could have never guessed it either.

[Colonelkillabee]

What's wrong about being a poonhandler? They're other people who just want sex so a brothel can provide for those who want sex. I wanna be a male sex machine to give the ladies some good lovin'.

Wrong thread then there's no need to discuss character in what you're asking for. Because brothel dwellers aren't characters, they're just vendors. Of ******.