1188 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

I'm not a fan of how Rey was handled. Her behavior in a few scenes had me rolling my eyes and her mastery of the Force was achieved with no hard work or knowledge required.

That said, I was surprised at the comments about the new protagonist. It is far too early to pass on judgment.

[Deadmac]

If you are going to call out pandering of minorities, then I'm sure you also are against pandering for straight white cis men, yes?

Then I can understand where you are coming from. Obvious pandering to any group can take away from the experience of enjoying media.

Even so, I don't think at any point, Disney or BW has been faulty of this???

Oh, absolutely.

 

If "Star Wars" was advertised as, "we have a straight male hero that makes us awesome", I would act exactly as I am now. I would be pissed.

 

My problem is with how movies, television shows, and games are currently being advertised.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm not a fan of how Rey was handled. Her behavior in a few scenes had me rolling my eyes and her mastery of the Force was achieved with no hard work or knowledge required.

That said, I was surprised at the comments about the new protagonist. It is far too early to pass on judgment.

 

Force training for either spectrum is a involved process that takes YEARS, I mean crud Luke by the end of ROTJ was not on par with Jedi Knights of the Old Republic, little lone a master, but over the following decades, he basically cobbled together a unique understanding of the Force from the prior Order, and his own discoveries and along with that understanding, came the utility and abilities that came along with it. Darth Maul was trained in secret for decades, seriously from less then a year old until five Sidious had him in the care of droids, and from then on, he was trained until adulthood to master the abilities and skills of a Sith Assassin.

[Andromelek]

 
...I miss Mara Jade.

We all miss the EU, though I think that leaving her as no-canon is better than having a lame substitute for her, like Durge and General Kota.

[Battlebloodmage]

Oh, absolutely.

 

If "Star Wars" was advertised as, "we have a straight male hero that makes us awesome", I would act exactly as I am now. I would be pissed.

 

My problem is with how movies and television shows are currently being advertised.

Why would they have to say that when it's already the norms to pander to them? I have already given you examples of how characters being changed race intentionally, how movie scripts specifically have white race in it, and how ethnic movies somehow still have a white lead to make the movie more relatable. A rich guy has no reason to announce he just makes another million dollar, a poor guy who just earns a million dollar is a big deal. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I have already given you examples of how characters being changed race intentionally

 

You actually didn't.

 

You said the practice exists. 

 

You didn't provide any actual examples of it.

 

Just a FYI.

[Deadmac]

You actually didn't.

 

You said the practice exists. 

 

You didn't provide any actual examples of it.

 

Just a FYI.

Just look at what is happening over at Marvel Comics.

 

Just a 'few' examples:

Hulk is now an Asian.
Thor is now a female.

Spiderman is now a black-Hispanic.

Captain America is now black.

 

Instead of saying, hey "we have some great stories", Marvel said, "Hey, we changed his gender and/or his ethnicity". Changing a character's diversity, sexuality, and gender have become a selling point. Discriminating against white people has become a trend.

[Illyria]

Again, another person trying to shame me for saying 'heterosexual-white male'. I am not ashamed. I standby my words.

 

Go back and read my complete post.

 

You cannot silence my belief system.

 

I will stand against your misguided social justice garbage.

 

I'm not trying to shame you. Be proud of who you are!

 

But...

 

Here's the thing.

 

White, straight and male are the default.  You say 'I don't watch "Star Trek" to see a white guy, black guy, gay guy, etc... I watch "Star Trek" because it: (1) contains a strong story, (2) speaks to the human spirit, (3) brings people together, (4) challenges our perspective, and (5) gets us to believe in something greater.' and that's fine.  But other people are not white, straight, male or cis.  When people who aren't these things look at media they see, once again, they're not being included. 

 

You can't be the hero if you're gay, or a woman, or trans, or black - that's what people see.  They see endless numbers of White Guys Named Chris save the Marvel universe, while Black Widow is yet to get a solo film, and has been excluded from her own merchandise.  That tells girls 'you are not the hero'. 

 

When girls see Rey in Star Wars they see someone like them!  The same with Finn and Poe, neither of whom are white men (and there's a strong argument that Poe isn't straight, too). 

 

When I see BW games telling me I can be a woman, and be the hero that is a huge, huge thing for someone who grew up in the 90's and early 00's.

 

This isn't about making you feel ashamed.  This is about making others feel included.

[Master Warder Z_]

Just look at what is happening over at Marvel Comics.

 

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said he provided no citations or examples

 

And yet he said he did, a small inaccuracy I felt like pointing out.

[roelani]

Oh, absolutely.

 

If "Star Wars" was advertised as, "we have a straight male hero that makes us awesome", I would act exactly as I am now. I would be pissed.

 

My problem is with how movies, television shows, and games are currently being advertised.

 

Popping in sneakily to add that much of the knee-jerk reactionnary shitestorms happen because the media has understood that bandwagon-jumping on "progressive social issues" is a sure-fire way of getting mountains of clicks these days, and whenever someone even farts in a "diversified" way we'll be hearing about it for weeks.

 

Much of the advertising you're referring to is actually the media happily putting their own twist on things because it gets them views. The problem you're describing isn't one of content, either in movies, TV shows or video games. A great majority of consumers of such media don't give a rat's arse who's playing what character, in most cases. It's just annoying as all heck when all you can hear about when the new trailer breaks or a new vidyagame character is announced is "OHHHHH, FIRST TRANS LATINO WOMAN, ~diversity~!", when the actual source material barely even mentions it or makes no mention of it at all, except for that one time the director spoke in an interview and Mark Hamill went "Well, Luke ~could~ be gay" and all of a sudden you have 20 "progressive" newspapers hitting the "BIG MONEY BUTTON" with their absurd, same-y articles and open forums for trolls to fling their own poo at each other while the editors cackle silently in the background and watch the ad impressions pile up.

 

This isn't a complex issue, here. The problem is, and has always been, that scandal and public outrage sell news and adspace. The topics change according to what's currently the fad to discuss and encourage people to have fits over, but it's always the same thing. What's sad now is that they're using issues which actually matter to a lot of minorities and socially-disenfranchised people to push their money-mongering, irresponsible reporting.

 

If, as someone else has pointed out about, say, previous characters played by people of color in SW, we all just quietly accepted it as part of the norm instead of letting the media have their little adsale fits, everything would be going much smoother. And maybe Rey wouldn't have had such a weird character arc.

[The dead fish]

I standby what I said:

 

You guys are just angry because I used the phrase 'heterosexual-white male'. You are discriminating and being hypocritical.

 

...and one of you is being a racist.

 

We aren't discriminating anything. We are talking about what we noticed, those you mentioned, discussing the reasons why those same people who complain have so much difficulties to accept something else than what they were used to. I wouldn't hesitate to point out that with any other demographic. We wouldn't talk about them if they weren't those you were talking about, meaning the people complaining about pandering once they see something else with a very diverse cast ? That's simple logic, don't you think ? 

 

If some behave in a certain way, i'm going to point it out. 

 

How are we being hypocritical exactly ? 

[Battlebloodmage]

I didn't say it didn't exist, I said he provided no citations or examples

 

And yet he said he did, a small inaccuracy I felt like pointing out.

I could provide specific examples, but it gets down to semantic. There are plenty of examples, the question is would it change anyone's opinions if I provide it? I know very specific examples I can list; I don't want to waste my time.

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm not trying to shame you. Be proud of who you are!

 

But...

 

Here's the thing.

 

White, straight and male are the default.  You say 'I don't watch "Star Trek" to see a white guy, black guy, gay guy, etc... I watch "Star Trek" because it: (1) contains a strong story, (2) speaks to the human spirit, (3) brings people together, (4) challenges our perspective, and (5) gets us to believe in something greater.' and that's fine.  But other people are not white, straight, male or cis.  When people who aren't these things look at media they see, once again, they're not being included. 

 

You can't be the hero if you're gay, or a woman, or trans, or black - that's what people see.  They see endless numbers of White Guys Named Chris save the Marvel universe, while Black Widow is yet to get a solo film, and has been excluded from her own merchandise.  That tells girls 'you are not the hero'. 

 

When girls see Rey in Star Wars they see someone like them!  The same with Finn and Poe, neither of whom are white men (and there's a strong argument that Poe isn't straight, too). 

 

When I see BW games telling me I can be a woman, and be the hero that is a huge, huge thing for someone who grew up in the 90's and early 00's.

 

This isn't about making you feel ashamed.  This is about making others feel included.

The reason why Black Widow was included. Most of the time, when female characters are included, they're usually there for the sex appeal and play the LI.

 

Although to be fair, DC is making Wonder Woman solo and Marvel is making a Captain Marvel solo. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I could provide specific examples, but it gets down to semantic. There are plenty of examples, the question is would it change anyone's opinions if I provide it? I know very specific examples I can list; I don't want to waste my time.

 

Then don't say you provided examples, you listed a practice, you didn't actually list half a dozen citations or anything, word yourself correctly.

 

I mean really, there is a difference, I mean I can list off a handful of practices out of left field, but that doesn't mean anything unless if I actually point out specific cases to strengthen my argument, its all positioning and word play.

[Battlebloodmage]

Then don't say you provided examples, you listed a practice, you didn't actually list half a dozen citations or anything, word yourself correctly.

 

I mean really, there is a difference, I mean I can list off a handful of practices out of left field, but that utterly means anything unless if I actually point out specific cases to strengthen my argument, its all positioning and word play.

Uh huh.

[Steelcan]

What a thread

[Master Warder Z_]

Uh huh.

 

Uh yeah, You blatantly listed inaccurate information, no practices were put up, and yet it was stated otherwise.

 

Its simple and no amount of smariness or snark will change that you listed it.

[Battlebloodmage]

Uh yeah, You blatantly listed inaccurate information, no practices were put up, and yet it was stated otherwise.

 

Its simple and no amount of smariness or snark will change that you listed it.

Now you're mistaking wrong usage of the word "examples" with "inaccurate information". Maybe you should take your own advice.

[roelani]

Incidentally, I think using Star Trek as an example defeats the purpose of the entire argument, because Voyager's captain is literally Flemeth.

[The dead fish]

Popping in sneakily to add that much of the knee-jerk reactionnary shitestorms happen because the media has understood that bandwagon-jumping on "progressive social issues" is a sure-fire way of getting mountains of clicks these days, and whenever someone even farts in a "diversified" way we'll be hearing about it for weeks.

 

Much of the advertising you're referring to is actually the media happily putting their own twist on things because it gets them views. The problem you're describing isn't one of content, either in movies, TV shows or video games. A great majority of consumers of such media don't give a rat's arse who's playing what character, in most cases. It's just annoying as all heck when all you can hear about when the new trailer breaks or a new vidyagame character is announced is "OHHHHH, FIRST TRANS LATINO WOMAN, ~diversity~!", when the actual source material barely even mentions it or makes no mention of it at all, except for that one time the director spoke in an interview and Mark Hamill went "Well, Luke ~could~ be gay" and all of a sudden you have 20 "progressive" newspapers hitting the "BIG MONEY BUTTON" with their absurd, same-y articles and open forums for trolls to fling their own poo at each other while the editors cackle silently in the background and watch the ad impressions pile up.

 

This isn't a complex issue, here. The problem is, and has always been, that scandal and public outrage sell news and adspace. The topics change according to what's currently the fad to discuss and encourage people to have fits over, but it's always the same thing. What's sad now is that they're using issues which actually matter to a lot of minorities and socially-disenfranchised people to push their money-mongering, irresponsible reporting.

 

If, as someone else has pointed out about, say, previous characters played by people of color in SW, we all just quietly accepted it as part of the norm instead of letting the media have their little adsale fits, everything would be going much smoother. And maybe Rey wouldn't have had such a weird character arc.

 

I just don't understand the reactions toward star wars rogue trailer.  Pandering ! Political correctness ! They are weird to me. Would you feel better if you were seeing more white dudes ? That's what I don't really understand. It makes no sense except thinking "  I don't like this, i don't like seeing a diverse cast  ", there I could understand the logic. 

 

I personally simply thought that it was going to be bad. The female protagonist didn't bother me, neither the black guy, neither anything else. I just felt it wasn't going to interest me much, it seemed bad. That's it. 

 

Is it because I am a man of color that i didn't care about the cast ? Didn't really notice it ? Only worrying that star wars rogue couldn't appeal to me ? 

 

I even read on a forum that some argued that the movie should focus on writting and not on having a diverse cast. Because of pandering it is going to be bad. How that could make any sense ? Writting has nothing to do with having a diverse cast. Having a less diverse cast would mean a better writting ? 

 

Like i said, it hardly makes sense to me.

[Deadmac]

We aren't discriminating anything. We are talking about what we noticed, those you mentioned, discussing the reasons why those same people who complain have so much difficulties to accept something else than what they were used to. I wouldn't hesitate to point out that with any other demographic. We wouldn't talk about them if they weren't those you were talking about, meaning the people complaining about pandering once they see something else with a very diverse cast ? That's simple logic, don't you think ? 

 

If some behave in a certain way, i'm going to point it out. 

 

How are we being hypocritical exactly ? 

Oh, okay. I took it personally.

My apology.

Now I understand.
 

[Medhia_Nox]

What a thread

 

Serious business is serious.

[Battlebloodmage]

I just don't understand the reactions toward star wars rogue trailer.  Pandering ! Political correctness ! They are weird to me. Would you feel better if you were seeing more white dudes ? That's what I don't really understand. It makes no sense except thinking "  I don't like this, i don't like seeing this a diverse cast  ", there I could understand the logic. 

 

I personally simply thought that it was going to be bad. The female protagonist didn't bother me, neither the black guy, neither anything else. I just felt it wasn't going to interest me much, it seemed bad. That's it. 

 

Is it because I am a man of color that i didn't care about the cast ? Didn't really notice it ? Only worrying that star wars rogue couldn't appeal to me ? 

 

I even read on a forum that Some argued that the movie should focus on writting and not on having a diverse cast. Because of pandering it is going to be bad. How that could make any sense ? Writting has nothing to do with having a diverse cast. Having a less diverse cast would mean a better writting ? 

 

Like i said, it hardly makes sense to me.

That is what I have some problem with. What does it mean by focusing on the writing. Is it kinda implied that by focusing on the writing, would the cast be defaulted to white? What make them think that the writing wasn't just happened to have these minority characters? 

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so I wouldn't watch it regardless, so having a diverse cast wouldn't mean that those who care about diversity would still watch it. 

[roelani]

 

I just don't understand the reactions toward star wars rogue trailer.  Pandering ! Political correctness ! They are weird to me. Would you feel better if you were seeing more white dudes ? That's what I don't really understand. It makes no sense except thinking "  I don't like this, i don't like seeing a diverse cast  ", there I could understand the logic. 
 
I personally simply thought that it was going to be bad. The female protagonist didn't bother me, neither the black guy, neither anything else. I just felt it wasn't going to interest me much, it seemed bad. That's it. 
 
Is it because I am a man of color that i didn't care about the cast ? Didn't really notice it ? Only worrying that star wars rogue couldn't appeal to me ? 
 
I even read on a forum that some argued that the movie should focus on writting and not on having a diverse cast. Because of pandering it is going to be bad. How that could make any sense ? Writting has nothing to do with having a diverse cast. Having a less diverse cast would mean a better writting ? 
 
Like i said, it hardly makes sense to me.

 

Seeing as how I stopped giving a sh*t about SW round about the same time that Lucas' ego imploded when he shot the prequels, I couldn't answer you. Sorry. People were using it as an example and since it's impossible to escape, I've been bathed in its various controversies from the get go, more or less. Haven't really sought out any info about Rogue myself. It doesn't interest me.

(Also, please excuse the formatting, the reply box is apparently having a fit, or something.)

* Edited to add that I'm not actually a white dude, if that was implied in your response to me. Personally I don't care about the colour of a dude, so long as said dude is nice to look at onscreen (or in game). I'm an equal opportunity leerer that way.

Also edited to add that I'm done for now, not because the discussion isn't interesting but because each page load takes approximately 45 seconds right now because apparently lvlt.forums.bioware.com are crapping out, whatever that subdomain is, and well, I'm not that patient. Have a nice day, y'all!

[Deadmac]

That is what I have some problem with. What does it mean by focusing on the writing. Is it kinda implied that by focusing on the writing, would the cast be defaulted to white? What make them think that the writing wasn't just happened to have these minority characters? 

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so I wouldn't watch it regardless, so having a diverse cast wouldn't mean that those who care about diversity would still watch it. 

Within my personal perspective, could be different with others, focusing on the writing means - If you make a good and solid story, people will enjoy it regardless about a person's race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc... Ben Sisko, Kate Janeway, and Mara Jade are three good examples. While their stories do reflect gender and ethnicity, the selling point behind those characters was 'father/commander/emissary' - 'captain/lover/guardian' - 'assassin/mother/lover/anti-hero-hero'. Zahn was all about women empowerment; however, he never said, 'buy my books because they have a female hero'.

Even though a studio may diversify a cast, the main driving point should be about how 'well' they are written.

"Dragon Age" should not be about having 'more' sexual encounters, the game should be about the 'context' of the sexuality.

"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is another great example. As Willow and Tara came together as a couple, the audience didn't focus on them being gay. People saw two loving individuals. Since Joss Whedon gave their sexuality context, while fleshing out their characters, people naturally accepted Willow and Tara as a couple. Joss didn't say, "watch my show for the gay people'.

Many people get their information from the trailers; however, the manner in which some games, movies, and tv-shows are being sold, outside of the trailers, is an entirely different manner. Disney executives literally use the tag line, "we have female protagonists and that means the movie is awesome'. Um... No.