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Sexuality- Broaden the archetypes and stereotypes


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#976
Battlebloodmage

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Back on the relationship topic, a male!Josie romance would be nice too. I mean, no one says the romances with a male LI have to be always about sex. :)

Just...no Sebastion type, no Chantry guy that doesn't want sex, just a nice guy for whom that isn't that important.  =]

I'm fine with sex not being important, but I still want sex to exist within the relationship. Chaste marriage wasn't something that I want because I want a future with that person, and as a sexual person, sexy is an important part of the relationship. I can't envision myself to be in that kind of relationship and I can't envision my character to be in that kind of relationship. I do like a romantic male though, especially gay males since gay romance lacks the romance in it.



#977
Illyria

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----

 

Back on the relationship topic, a male!Josie romance would be nice too. I mean, no one says the romances with a male LI have to be always about sex. :)

Just...no Sebastion type, no Chantry guy that doesn't want sex, just a nice guy for whom that isn't that important.  =]

 

I think an expanded Sebastian could be an interesting romance.  Everything about Seb felt rushed (and I'm saying that as a fan).  But having something courtly like Josie, particularly if he was a bi or gay LI, could be great.


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#978
Battlebloodmage

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I think an expanded Sebastian could be an interesting romance.  Everything about Seb felt rushed (and I'm saying that as a fan).  But having something courtly like Josie, particularly if he was a bi or gay LI, could be great.

After seeing both romances, there really is no difference between Cassandra and Josie in term of romantic content, except Cassandra has a sex scene during her romantic scene where you read a poem for her at night which is still heavily focused on romance, but in term of personality, Josephine is weak and defenseless while Cassandra is strong and commanding. Still, I would rather have a Cassandra first since I still want my gay KISA. I really want to see a strong and masculine and commanding knight in shining armor. 



#979
SnakeCode

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To be fair, gods don't have race, right ;)? Besides, Marvel's Thor had black guy, Idris Elba, playing (nomen-omen) Heimdall. Funny enough, the same black guy will be playing Roland Deschain in the coming adaption of S. King's "Dark Tower", while Roland was written as white character. 

Btw, I like the idea of gay Luke; it makes me think of another great warrior, who was probably gay - the Great Alexander. 

 

Idris Elba is also a likely candidate to play the next James Bond and to my knowledge is confirmed to star in the film adaptation of The Dark Tower as Roland Deschain. Two other traditionally white characters.

 

Samuel L Jackson played Nick Fury, who started as a white character, but now it's hard to imagine him as anything other than a black guy.

 

The new ghostbusters stars four women in traditionally male roles. And they're actually using this as their big selling point, much like how J.J Abrams constantly talks about diversity and female empowerment in every single interview these days. "Hey, Star Wars is awesome now because we have strong female leads." This actually ties in to what I was saying before about empathy, and these people's misunderstanding (or lack) of it, but that's a debate for another time.

 

Same with female Thor, which was a train wreck, because the writing revolved around the fact that she was a woman, and not Thor. Enemies were written terribly, they weren't bad guys because they were criminals anymore, they were evil because they were misogynists. It was all pretty ridiculous.

  

These previous examples are usually praised and thought of as a good thing though, as it's "diversifying" media. Whereas casting white men as characters in roles that could have been played by non white actors is terrible and racist. Like the debacle over Gods of Egypt.


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#980
Battlebloodmage

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Idris Elba is also a likely candidate to play the next James Bond and to my knowledge is confirmed to star in the film adaptation of The Dark Tower as Roland Deschain. Two other traditionally white characters.

 

Samuel L Jackson played Nick Fury, who started as a white character, but now it's hard to imagine him as anything other than a black guy.

 

The new ghostbusters stars four women in traditionally male roles. And they're actually using this as their big selling point, much like how J.J Abrams constantly talks about diversity and female empowerment in every single interview these days. "Hey, Star Wars is awesome now because we have strong female leads." This actually ties in to what I was saying before about empathy, and these people's misunderstanding (or lack) of it, but that's a debate for another time.

 

Same with female Thor, which was a train wreck, because the writing revolved around the fact that she was a woman, and not Thor. Enemies were written terribly, they weren't bad guys because they were criminals anymore, they were evil because they were misogynists. It was all pretty ridiculous.

  

These previous examples are usually praised and thought of as a good thing though, as it's "diversifying" media. Whereas casting white men as characters in roles that could have been played by non white actors is terrible and racist. Like the debacle over Gods of Egypt.

Can people just stop? I intentionally try to steer this topic to something else for a while now. If you want to talk about this further with anyone, can you do it through PM or make a new thread about it? It seems like it warrants enough of a discussion by its own anyway. 


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#981
Gilli

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I think an expanded Sebastian could be an interesting romance.  Everything about Seb felt rushed (and I'm saying that as a fan).  But having something courtly like Josie, particularly if he was a bi or gay LI, could be great.

 

That's what I was going for. =)

 

I liked Cass's romance too, she was my second DAI romance and is the LI of my canon Inquisitor. I'd just like to have the option (like in Dorian's romance) to "Take it slow".


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#982
BansheeOwnage

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Can people just stop? I intentionally try to steer this topic to something else for a while now. If you want to talk about this further with anyone, can you do it through PM or make a new thread about it? It seems like it warrants enough of a discussion by its own anyway. 

Agreed. I was tempted to respond, but thought better of it. Better to just go back on-topic.

 

Yeah, all of their archetypes have been done before. Still, what I really want is a gay prince. I always love the prince charming archetype, especially prince Kaidan from Cinderella, maybe a violent and rebel prince. Outside of that, I think someone like Cullen is highly requested for gay romance, so I hope they consider it, too. Yeah, I do hope if there's a bisexual male, he would be more into guys. Marius has a history with women, so it would be hard to have been be more interested in guys. I don't know much about lesbians, but outside of masculine lesbians, i wonder if there's any other requests for the archetype. 

Sorry, are you asking if there is interest among lesbians/bi women for a Cullen/Alistair/Prince Charming archetype? If so, yes there is. I'm not sure how widespread, but I'm definitely interested and I've seen a few others express interest in that as well.

 

Anyone feels like the LIs are often too young? I like that in DAI, we have older guys like Cullen and Blackwall who are a lot older than other LIs. Cullen is just more of a given since he was in all 3 games. I was against Blackwall at first, but I'm starting to see the appeal of an older LI. Most games often offer really younger guys. I wouldn't mind more older LIs to be in the game in general. 

The ones in DA:I are pretty varied. Cassandra is at least 38, Cullen is 30, Blackwall is probably in his late 40s, Solas is physically about 40, Sera is... young. I'd say Bull is about 40 too, maybe a bit less. Dorian seems to be in his late 20s to me, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure about Josephine to be honest. Any guesses? So most of them in DA:I aren't that young. In DA:O they were all pretty young.



#983
SnakeCode

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Nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day, they're a game company after all, but it becomes self fulfilling prophecy when you make game with specific audience in mind, mostly that audience buy those games, more females and other groups would buy games if games start to making games for them as well. Still, it's really up to the developers, and whether they see those other demographics worth pursuing. 

 

Well yes, but you can't please everyone. What if they try to branch out and end up alienating the core fanbase? Perhaps you (and many others) would think "so what, they're likely homophobes and sexists anyway, no loss" and you may well be right. However, would you expect the people trying to sell this content see it that way? There's no guarantee the new audience is larger (and thus will generate more money) than the last one, and at the end of the day money talks. Moving units is (and should be) the primary concern of the publishers, the demographic that buys the majority of the sold units is going to have more say in the kind of content included in future titles than other demographics. It's always been this way.


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#984
SnakeCode

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Can people just stop? I intentionally try to steer this topic to something else for a while now. If you want to talk about this further with anyone, can you do it through PM or make a new thread about it? It seems like it warrants enough of a discussion by its own anyway. 

 

Sorry, this thread moves so fast. If you haven't kept up in a while and return to it about seven topics have been discussed. I'm still playing catch-up.



#985
Battlebloodmage

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Sorry, are you asking if there is interest among lesbians/bi women for a Cullen/Alistair/Prince Charming archetype? If so, yes there is. I'm not sure how widespread, but I'm definitely interested and I've seen a few others express interest in that as well.

 

The ones in DA:I are pretty varied. Cassandra is at least 38, Cullen is 30, Blackwall is probably in his late 40s, Solas is physically about 40, Sera is... young. I'd say Bull is about 40 too, maybe a bit less. Dorian seems to be in his late 20s to me, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure about Josephine to be honest. Any guesses? So most of them in DA:I aren't that young. In DA:O they were all pretty young.

Are you prefer a human romance? I personally like a human romance above all else. I'm impartial toward Qunari, but my top choice would be human, the second would be dwarf, I just don't want elves, but it's more because I'm not a fan of their body type, too skinny, and I like beard. :P

 

It seems like people like characters who want to take charges in general. I'm surprised quite a few of the people don't like Alistair, he's pretty adorkable, I guess he's not manly in the traditional sense, but more like an adorkable guy you would like to make a fort blanket with and have some chocolate drink. 

 

I didn't know they're that old, but the impression they give make them out to be quite young. Maybe it's just the demeanor they give out that make them younger than they look. 


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#986
Catilina

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Are you prefer a human romance? I personally like a human romance above all else. I'm impartial toward Qunari, but my top choice would be human, the second would be dwarf, I just don't want elves, but it's more because I'm not a fan of their body type, too skinny, and I like beard. :P

 

It seems like people like characters who want to take charges in general. I'm surprised quite a few of the people don't like Alistair, he's pretty adorkable, I guess he's not manly in the traditional sense, but more like an adorkable guy you would like to make a fort blanket with and have some chocolate drink. 

 

I didn't know they're that old, but the impression they give make them out to be quite young. Maybe it's just the demeanor they give out that make them younger than they look. 

I agree with you regarding Alistair and I would add: he have manly moments, and courageous, trustworthy. (Sure, he don't feel prepared himself for the leadership position, but he are young enough.) And yes, I always want to protect him. :) (It was hard to let him go with my power-hunger Cousland, but i wanted a Loghain-end...)



#987
Bayonet Hipshot

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Idris Elba is also a likely candidate to play the next James Bond and to my knowledge is confirmed to star in the film adaptation of The Dark Tower as Roland Deschain. Two other traditionally white characters.

 

Samuel L Jackson played Nick Fury, who started as a white character, but now it's hard to imagine him as anything other than a black guy.

 

The new ghostbusters stars four women in traditionally male roles. And they're actually using this as their big selling point, much like how J.J Abrams constantly talks about diversity and female empowerment in every single interview these days. "Hey, Star Wars is awesome now because we have strong female leads." This actually ties in to what I was saying before about empathy, and these people's misunderstanding (or lack) of it, but that's a debate for another time.

 

Same with female Thor, which was a train wreck, because the writing revolved around the fact that she was a woman, and not Thor. Enemies were written terribly, they weren't bad guys because they were criminals anymore, they were evil because they were misogynists. It was all pretty ridiculous.

  

These previous examples are usually praised and thought of as a good thing though, as it's "diversifying" media. Whereas casting white men as characters in roles that could have been played by non white actors is terrible and racist. Like the debacle over Gods of Egypt.

 

I find the idea of black actors or characters playing traditionally white roles and women playing traditionally male roles in comics or movies or games for no story related reason or lore related rather preposterous.

 

Why ?

 

1) It is a petty form of virtue signalling. You do not see this in any other parts of the world. You won't see this in the Asian film industry, the African film industry, the Middle Eastern film industry, Asian gaming industry, Asian comic book industry etc.

 

Whenever there is a race change or sex change in non-Western creative production, there is a story related reason or lore related reason, usually magic.Marvel did not explain why Nick Fury changed his skin color. DC did not explain why Jimmy Olsen and the West family changed their skin color.

 

They just did it because:- "Look at us ! We made a black actor play the white male role ! Look, we gender swapped someone ! Look at how morally righteous, progressive and awesome we are ! Please give us teh moneh !"

 

2) It gives an excuse for the movie makers and even game developers to develop a half-arsed product and then deflect all criticism by using the racism or sexism card.

 

Look at the Ghostbusters reboot where the filmmakers have been responding to criticisms by crying out "muh soggy knees". Or how about EA, who said that its bad ratings were due to "anti-gay sentiments". Or how about Beamdog who decided to label those who criticized the latest Baldur's Gate DLC as transphobic.

 

3) This last reason is for those who believe media affects people in a significant manner. I mean, what message is the fictional entertainment industry sending by blindly race swapping and sex swapping characters ?

 

Here's the message they will be sending to their audience and the public and their audience :- "Oh hey there. Are you are black or a woman ? Do you want to be famous ? Well good news, you can do that now by just inserting yourself into the white guy role. No hard work, no training and no justification required ! Just insert and retcon away, because its the current year."

 

4) Lastly, this move sidelines existing characters and fosters a sense of laziness. I mean why bother creating new and interesting black characters or female characters ? Just have them take over the white male role. No real creative work required, we get some progressive brownie points and we can pat ourselves in the back for it.

 

There is also the sidelining that I mentioned. Take female Thor, a completely unnecessary thing to do. Why ? Because they have Brunhilde, Lady Sif and the Valkyries, all of whom are part of the Marvel universe. Instead of developing their story, Marvel sidelined them in favor of ruining Thor. Or how about characters like Vixen, Aqualad, Rocket, Static and Jon Stewart in the DC Comics ? They were existing black characters. Vixen and Rocket are black female characters. Instead of developing them more and giving them more publicity, they decided to turn the West family and Jimmy Olsen black.

 

TL;DR - I am really against sex and race changes of any character. without any proper storytelling (& not the useless female Thor kind of storytelling). For the most part, I'd rather they don't do it at all.


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#988
Catilina

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[...]

Back to topic, pls.


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#989
Heimdall

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@Bayonet Hipshot

 

I appreciate your passion, but the thread has moved on and this is really off-topic.


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#990
Hanako Ikezawa

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I'm not sure about Josephine to be honest. Any guesses?

Her writer Sylvia says that Josephine is somewhere between 27 to 29 in Inquisition. 


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#991
Cee

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Sorry, are you asking if there is interest among lesbians/bi women for a Cullen/Alistair/Prince Charming archetype? If so, yes there is. I'm not sure how widespread, but I'm definitely interested and I've seen a few others express interest in that as well.

 

The ones in DA:I are pretty varied. Cassandra is at least 38, Cullen is 30, Blackwall is probably in his late 40s, Solas is physically about 40, Sera is... young. I'd say Bull is about 40 too, maybe a bit less. Dorian seems to be in his late 20s to me, but I could be wrong. I'm not sure about Josephine to be honest. Any guesses? So most of them in DA:I aren't that young. In DA:O they were all pretty young.

 

Well, FWIW, one bi woman's opinion. Alistair was the first LI in a game that I thought felt real enough that I'd be interested in him as a person if he were real. It's not necessarily the archetype, but the character that works or doesn't work. Cullen's romance is sweet, it's cute, it's happy, but while it's nice, I'm not really interested in doing it.

 

(Nor am I interested in Bull or Blackwall at all. Josie, I am, but we're a lot alike in certain ways and it's enough to be a little weird, but I'll do it someday).

 

As far as age, Dorian is 30 in DAI (born 9.11), given what we have in WoT2, and Josephine's writer had in mind someone 27-29: https://twitter.com/...50966357712897 


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#992
Hanako Ikezawa

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Back on the relationship topic, a male!Josie romance would be nice too. I mean, no one says the romances with a male LI have to be always about sex.  :)

Just...no Sebastian type, no Chantry guy that doesn't want sex, just a nice guy for whom that isn't that important.  =]

I would love to have more romances like hers. Luckily in an interview it seems there may be more romances akin to that in the future. 

 

Patrick Weekes says Solas' romance can be seen in the way you are describing, as in it can be seen as being pure romantic and not sexual.


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#993
BansheeOwnage

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Are you prefer a human romance? I personally like a human romance above all else. I'm impartial toward Qunari, but my top choice would be human, the second would be dwarf, I just don't want elves, but it's more because I'm not a fan of their body type, too skinny, and I like beard. :P

 

It seems like people like characters who want to take charges in general. I'm surprised quite a few of the people don't like Alistair, he's pretty adorkable, I guess he's not manly in the traditional sense, but more like an adorkable guy you would like to make a fort blanket with and have some chocolate drink. 

 

I didn't know they're that old, but the impression they give make them out to be quite young. Maybe it's just the demeanor they give out that make them younger than they look. 

If everything else was equal I would choose a human romance, yes. I find them the most relatable and attractive... because I'm also human :lol: But it's not too important to me; it's the personality of the potential romance that's the deciding factor.

 

Ha, yeah, I don't know how people couldn't like Alistair! He's great! <3

 

Her writer Sylvia says that Josephine is somewhere between 27 to 29 in Inquisition. 

Thanks! That's what I was thinking, but you can never be sure if the face-models are an accurate representation of age.

 

Well, FWIW, one bi woman's opinion. Alistair was the first LI in a game that I thought felt real enough that I'd be interested in him as a person if he were real. It's not necessarily the archetype, but the character that works or doesn't work. Cullen's romance is sweet, it's cute, it's happy, but while it's nice, I'm not really interested in doing it.

 

(Nor am I interested in Bull or Blackwall at all. Josie, I am, but we're a lot alike in certain ways and it's enough to be a little weird, but I'll do it someday).

 

As far as age, Dorian is 30 in DAI (born 9.11), given what we have in WoT2, and Josephine's writer had in mind someone 27-29: https://twitter.com/...50966357712897 

Thanks for Dorian's age! Yeah, obviously the specific character is extremely important to whether you find a romance appealing, I was just being general. I know what you mean about Alistair feeling real.



#994
Witch Cocktor

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*is hoping for a adorkable qunari gay LI but knows it wont happen because we already got IB and if the DA4 cast has a qunari it would probably be a woman, and knowing this i wallow in misery*



#995
Jedi Comedian

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I know its not a popular opinion, but I wish there were only 2 LIs per game, 1 male 'n' 1 female, romanceable by any character.

#996
Witch Cocktor

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no thanks.

unless you are extremely confident in BW's writing that those two romances with appeal to everyone.

im not. would make replaying a bummer as well, unless there were MULTIPLE ways the romance could go.



#997
Jedi Comedian

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no thanks.
unless you are extremely confident in BW's writing that those two romances with appeal to everyone.
im not. would make replaying a bummer as well, unless there were MULTIPLE ways the romance could go.

Could work in several games:

KOTOR: Carth, Bastila

TSL: Atton, Visas

ME: Ashley, Kaidan

ME2: Miranda, Jacob

ME3: Ashley, Kaidan

DAO: Morrigan, Alistair

DA2: Anders, Isabela

DAI: Cass, Solas

#998
Witch Cocktor

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DA2: hate Anders, wont romance Isabela

DAI: hate Solas, wont romance Cass

 

so no romances for me, dude



#999
Illyria

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After seeing both romances, there really is no difference between Cassandra and Josie in term of romantic content, except Cassandra has a sex scene during her romantic scene where you read a poem for her at night which is still heavily focused on romance, but in term of personality, Josephine is weak and defenseless while Cassandra is strong and commanding. Still, I would rather have a Cassandra first since I still want my gay KISA. I really want to see a strong and masculine and commanding knight in shining armor. 

 

With Josie's f/f romance I quite like being able to be the knight to Josie's lady.  You've said a lot how you want a prince charming type, yeah? Well, for me I'd to be the prince charming type.  Which is not something you see in an f/f romance a lot (not in mainstream fiction anyway).

 

I'd also like a bi/lesbian KISA. Cass would've been perfect as an f/f romance, or an f!Alistair (but not Cullen) type.

 

Sorry for derailing this thread terribly.  I didn't expect things to get so heated so quickly.
 



#1000
Illyria

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Agreed. I was tempted to respond, but thought better of it. Better to just go back on-topic.

 

Sorry, are you asking if there is interest among lesbians/bi women for a Cullen/Alistair/Prince Charming archetype? If so, yes there is. I'm not sure how widespread, but I'm definitely interested and I've seen a few others express interest in that as well.

 

 

*waves*

 

 

Yes.  There is an interest (although I think you're referring to me in that post under 'a few others').  I remember in the old Cass thread (which I was pretty active in) there was a lot of interest in Cass from gay/bi women for this reason (in fact, until Cass was confirmed as being straight gay/bi women were the majority in the thread).
 


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