85 réponses à ce sujet

[sniper_arrow]

As the topic title says it all, how do you justify in killing Connor without metagaming, especially seeking the Circle's assistance?

[Qun00]

Your Warden finds killing children extremely arousing.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Two of my Wardens have killed him.

 

The first was a very good paragon type of character.  However she was a human noble who grew up not knowing anything about magic.  As far as the general population is concerned, if someone is possessed the only thing to do is kill them to protect everyone else, as Alistair and Teagan themselves say.  

She had gone to the circle first, and when asked if there were any blood mages left answered honestly that she didn't know.  She had no knowledge of magic, how could she possibly tell if they're corrupted?  She thought it would be reckless to say they're fine as she had no clue, so left it to the Knight Commander to work out.  After all, he should know.

She was devastated to find that it had been annulled.

So, no mages to help, and blood magic is super evil, so the only logical thing left was to kill him.  And she felt terrible about it, carrying his ghost with her all through the game and hating that there was no other way.

 

My second was a dwarf who didn't get magic at all.  She just saw a demon, so killed him.  Simple.

[vbibbi]

Without metagaming, we don't know whether leaving Connor alive while we seek out the mages is a good idea or not. It's actually, IMO, metagaming to just hope the desire demon doesn't wreak more havoc while we're gone. Even if we didn't have to do the whole Broken Circle quest, there's still travel time to and from the Circle, time that Connor could use to get up to more hijinks. It's actually a bit silly that he's just roaming the upper floors of the castle with no guards or protective measures and doesn't do anything. Wouldn't the demon be desperate to escape since they know the PC is returning with a lot of mages to kick her out?

[Apo]

I'll do it pretty much for the same reason as ArcadiaGrey did it.

 

My dwarf noble will be an unstopable ruthless guy that will do everything to gain power and get things done, sort of the same as the premade world state in DA2.

 

As for the second, my human noble is an andrastian that will grow to distrust all of magic, when encountering Jowan first and seing what happened to the circle after.

[Deadly dwarf]

Whether or not my Warden is a mage, I never kill Connor.  Once you're aware of Jowan in the dungeon, conversations will ultimately lead to the "mage in the Fade" option to hunt down the demon controlling Connor.

 

The only way I can imagine a Warden killing Connor without being sadistic is if your Warden is a non-mage who's very suspicious of magic.  The problem, though, is that no matter what, your Warden and Alistair are ultimately saved from death at the Tower of Ishal by a powerful witch who -- at your darkest hour -- helps your Warden and Alistair put things into perspective and figure out what it is you need to do with the Grey Warden treaties in order to battle the Blight.  And then you are given Morigan who continually demonstrates what a powerful mage can do.  (Assuming you don't continuously abandon at Party Camp.)  At that point, none of my Wardens can conceive of choosing a solution to a hard problem without considering all magical options first.  Unless you play your very first Warden as overly impulsive, I don't see how "kill the child" becomes the logical solution.

[robertmarilyn]

I can't justify killing Connor and I don't have to meta game to keep him alive. Even on my very first game, I didn't kill Jowen, therefore he was available to tell us that Connor could be saved. So I always do what needs to be done to save him. I never kill anyone if there is a chance to save them. 

[Yumakooma]

Interesting enough question and responses.

 

I personally haven't killed Connor yet and maybe it will stay that way... I came close on my main playthrough though with my Dwarven Warden who was pretty ruthless, he just wanted to get his allies and fight the blight as quick as he could and really didn't mind 'collateral damage' if it got things done quicker. After thinking he would likely be killing Connor, Isolde offered to sacrifice herself in the blood magic ritual and my warden could understand a parent discarding their life if they could save their child... so he went along with that ritual. It still saved an awful lot of vital time compared to going to the circle and gathering the mages support to save Connor. Obviously my warden was aware Eamons wife dying wouldn't go down well but it was not known for sure at this point in the story if the Arl will survive and my warden assumed he would still help even with his wife dead.

[ArcadiaGrey]

But it isn't necessarily ruthless.  My kindest warden killed him as she felt she had no choice, and it was the accepted thing to do among the non-magical people of the time.

 

Blindly accepting that the mages are not blood mages is naive, unless you're from the circle and a mage yourself.  How would you even know they're not?  The blood mage you meet half way up the tower for example, you only know she's a blood mage as you see her doing a spell.  Other than that she's normal.

So isn't it arrogant and dangerous to assume the ones that are left are fine?  They've had half of a spell from Uldred cast on them after all and could turn and escape, demonising the local population.

 

Then my warden gets to Redcliffe, sees Connor's condition and her only choice is Jowen.  The man who started all of this, why on earth would she give him any chance to do more damage?

 

So no, imo it's not ruthless or sadistic.  If you play it a certain way it's tragic and a huge blow for the warden who feels they have no other choice.  Coupled with a lovely scene with Isolde when you go upstairs and kill him.

 

Sometimes playing the game and letting a 'bad thing' happen can lead to wonderful storytelling, and with Connor bring it home to the Warden everything that is being sacrificed in the hope of victory.

[sjsharp2011]

I can't justify killing Connor and I don't have to meta game to keep him alive. Even on my very first game, I didn't kill Jowen, therefore he was available to tell us that Connor could be saved. So I always do what needs to be done to save him. I never kill anyone if there is a chance to save them. 

 

 

Yeah most of my heroes in DA that I've created  only kill if they have to in self defence. Same with Cauthrian towards the end of DAO. Even when Alistair kind of objects I explain to him that we would only be reinforcing Loghain's belief about us if we attack her. But then you get the opportunity to escap eand then convince her to stand down later if you choose that route thereby sparing her which is better all round I think. I've never played a truly nasty warden but only a really evil/renegade warden would make those sorts of decisions or a character that's slow to trust I'd say. But I guess it depends on the kind of character your RP'ingI may play that kind of character at some point but haven't as yet.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Quite easily.

 

 

You put many more lives in danger by leaving Redcliffe to a demon and its devices, and Connor's life is not inherently worth more than theirs.

[Ghost Gal]

Your Warden is a psychopath.

[Krypplingz]

As said before there is no guarantee that the demon wont wreck Redcliffe once you're gone. It took care of Teagan and the guards easily enough, also the village and the guards are just recovering from last nights battle. You're taking a big risk just to look for a potential solution to the problem.  (And personally I feel like the lyrium route should have had consequences.)

Is the life of one noble brat worth the lives of the rest of the people in the village? 

 

As for the blood magic route. Most of the Origins have had it hammered into their heads since childhood that blood magic is the ultimate evil. And there is no guarantee that it will work, or that Jowan wont turn on you, kill Isolde to fuel his power and then murder his way out of Redcliffe. A lot of risks being taken there.

 

As for killing Connor, there are a couple of benefits to it. It takes out the evil in a quick and semi clean manner. You face the evil on your ground, with a group, instead of sending a mage into the demons lair, alone. 

 

You might also do it for Connors sake, as twisted as it sounds. I feel guilty over some stupid but harmless things I did as a kid, I can't even imagine the guilt you would feel over being partly responsible over the murders of multiple people (including children) in your home village. And knowing that your mom had to die a brutal death just to save you from your own actions. That's a pretty big burden. 

And then there is the knowing that the same thing can happen to you again, another can take control of your body and use it to do evil, just because you were born this way. As he himself said : "Sometimes when I dream, I remember what happened. I see the death and destruction, and it's me. It's all me".

And Connor is probably not the only one who blames himself for what happens. A lot of the villages lost their friends, parents or children to that demon. He probably had a lot of dark looks thrown his way before he left for the Circle. That's not easy either.

[Aren]

Without metagaming, we don't know whether leaving Connor alive while we seek out the mages is a good idea or not. It's actually, IMO, metagaming to just hope the desire demon doesn't wreak more havoc while we're gone. Even if we didn't have to do the whole Broken Circle quest, there's still travel time to and from the Circle, time that Connor could use to get up to more hijinks. It's actually a bit silly that he's just roaming the upper floors of the castle with no guards or protective measures and doesn't do anything. Wouldn't the demon be desperate to escape since they know the PC is returning with a lot of mages to kick her out?

I don't understand where is the problem?
I mean this argument was made several times and i always pointed out that is gibberish.
If Connor will show sign of possession he will be killed by the knights, if not then the warden will return with the lyrium.
No metagame just strategy.
The demon is in the fade the less you disturb it the less he will interact with Connor.

[straykat]

Going to the Circle first/siding with Temps is the most obvious, I guess.

 

My main and one of my earliest mistakes was trying to go into Eamon's room first. That forced a demon fight.

 

Either way, it doesn't have to be ruthless. You can use it as an excuse to try to be even better next time. It's a failure, that maybe could lead to better things. And I find it just as lame to be perfect all the time. That's definitely the best thing to do in most games. But mistakes can be much more in an RPG.

[GoldenGail3]

I don't kill Connor; I save him by saving the Circle that goes and saves him. It's a very simple system I've got.

[Mike3207]

I use the Circle. You are leaving Jowan to watch the child, and it's one of those circumstances you hope he can be trusted in. It's better than simply pursuing and killing Connor  or his mother.

[straykat]

I don't kill Connor; I save him by saving the Circle that goes and saves him. It's a very simple system I've got.

 

It is simple, once you figure it all out. That's kind of what sucks about it.

 

That's partly why Gaider wrote DA2 the way he did. He regretted that so many people just use the Circle option to save Connor. I guess he felt the need to enforce a bit more drama and tragedy. As gamers, we're always eyeing the most optimal course. Even RPGs end up getting treated like Guitar Hero or Pong.

[Deadly dwarf]

As said before there is no guarantee that the demon wont wreck Redcliffe once you're gone. It took care of Teagan and the guards easily enough, also the village and the guards are just recovering from last nights battle. You're taking a big risk just to look for a potential solution to the problem.  (And personally I feel like the lyrium route should have had consequences.)

Is the life of one noble brat worth the lives of the rest of the people in the village? 

 

As for the blood magic route. Most of the Origins have had it hammered into their heads since childhood that blood magic is the ultimate evil. And there is no guarantee that it will work, or that Jowan wont turn on you, kill Isolde to fuel his power and then murder his way out of Redcliffe. A lot of risks being taken there.

 

As for killing Connor, there are a couple of benefits to it. It takes out the evil in a quick and semi clean manner. You face the evil on your ground, with a group, instead of sending a mage into the demons lair, alone. 

 

You might also do it for Connors sake, as twisted as it sounds. I feel guilty over some stupid but harmless things I did as a kid, I can't even imagine the guilt you would feel over being partly responsible over the murders of multiple people (including children) in your home village. And knowing that your mom had to die a brutal death just to save you from your own actions. That's a pretty big burden. 

And then there is the knowing that the same thing can happen to you again, another can take control of your body and use it to do evil, just because you were born this way. As he himself said : "Sometimes when I dream, I remember what happened. I see the death and destruction, and it's me. It's all me".

And Connor is probably not the only one who blames himself for what happens. A lot of the villages lost their friends, parents or children to that demon. He probably had a lot of dark looks thrown his way before he left for the Circle. That's not easy either.

 

You make a valid point....how can the Warden know that while he/she is off to the Tower, demon-controlled Connor won't strike again and raise the undead to besiege Redcliffe while the Warden is away?  (Is there a valid reason why the Warden believes he has time to go all the way to the Tower to find mages and lyrium?)

 

Which probably makes sacrificing Isolde the best way to save Connor.  As to trusting Jowan, remember, Teagan and the knights were able to subdue Jowan before without the Warden's help.  With a "mage in the Fade," there are still three team members to help Teagan and company should Jowan try to double cross them.

 

The quandary then is who to sacrifice?  Eamon's son or his wife?  Remember, Eamon represents one of the armies you need to fight the Blight.  If he finds out there were options other than killing Connor.....  OTOH, killing Isolde wouldn't please him either, though I suppose there's some poetic justice in it.  As to Connor's cameo in DAI, I think that highlights why he was worth saving.  He still feels remorse for a desperate but understandable decision he made as a juvenile mage.  If you opt to save the mages, in the nightmare future, Connor chooses to die rather than give in to the demons again.  As an adult mage, one could expect Connor to  warn other mages of the consequences of trying to deal with demons.

[kimgoold]

Is anyone going to point the finger where it really belongs -  Isolde; she as a supposed devout Andrastian keeps her mage child hidden knowing it could go very pear shaped, she hires an apostate and lies her A## off but Jowan and a child are to blame? Okay. I dislike killing Connor but my mage character usually does as she knows the dangers of Untrained Mages and frankly one Noble child is not worth the lives of an entire village. Its a pity that Isolde is never charged by the King/Queen or Chancellor  for breaking the law and killing so many under her husbands authority/care. Entire families are killed and she isn't even repremanded by the Chantry for flouting Chantry Law.

[straykat]

Is anyone going to point the finger where it really belongs -  Isolde; she as a supposed devout Andrastian keeps her mage child hidden knowing it could go very pear shaped, she hires an apostate and lies her A## off but Jowan and a child are to blame? Okay. I dislike killing Connor but my mage character usually does as she knows the dangers of Untrained Mages and frankly one Noble child is not worth the lives of an entire village. Its a pity that Isolde is never charged by the King/Queen or Chancellor  for breaking the law and killing so many under her husbands authority/care. Entire families are killed and she isn't even repremanded by the Chantry for flouting Chantry Law.

 

I blame the Chantry for creating such a complicated situation to begin with.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like the Chantry. I just think this needs to change a bit. Templars and the Circle are partly to blame for the "mage problem". It causes unnecessary stress. Half of the mage issues woudn't arise in the first place, if not for the severity of it all. And family members wouldn't fear it so much if they weren't scared out of their pants. And ripping apart families is never cool either. If it is, we all might as well be like the Qunari and kill off any sense of actual bonding at all. Lets all be loveless drones and follow rules and be constantly fearful of demons, every time magic gets mentioned.

 

And it isn't like Andraste said any of it, other than the "mages shouldn't rule" bit. Somehow Thedas jumped to extreme conclusions about that.

 

/rant Sorry about that. If I have a relevant point, it's that I don't want Isolde to die either. She gets a lot of hate (not necessarily in this thread), and I think it's unfair. I sympathize, even if she's annoying.

[Aren]

Strategy isn't metagame and it's all a matter of strategy here.

Those who killed Connor because they thought there were no possible better solutions were simply wrong no matter how hard they try to say that the circle route should have lead to bad consequences.

Actually this is very realistic because sometime there is simply a better path to follow.

[Callidus Thorn]

Is anyone going to point the finger where it really belongs -  Isolde; she as a supposed devout Andrastian keeps her mage child hidden knowing it could go very pear shaped, she hires an apostate and lies her A## off but Jowan and a child are to blame? Okay. I dislike killing Connor but my mage character usually does as she knows the dangers of Untrained Mages and frankly one Noble child is not worth the lives of an entire village. Its a pity that Isolde is never charged by the King/Queen or Chancellor  for breaking the law and killing so many under her husbands authority/care. Entire families are killed and she isn't even repremanded by the Chantry for flouting Chantry Law.

 

I blame Isolde entirely for what happened at Redcliffe. She couldn't have done more damage if she'd been working with Loghain.

 

Strategy isn't metagame and it's all a matter of strategy here.

Those who killed Connor because they thought there were no possible better solutions were simply wrong no matter how hard they try to say that the circle route should have lead to bad consequences.

Actually this is very realistic because sometime there is simply a better path to follow.

 

 

And sometimes there isn't. I don't find the choice particularly realistis, in all honesty. At least with the Dalish/Werewolf situation the option to save everyone is right there, readily accessible and known to everyone involved. At Redcliffe you're just rolling the dice.

 

Personally, I considering it to be metagaming to go to the Circle for aid, particularly if you haven't already been there(Redcliffe is usually my second stop post-Ostagar, I go there right after I get Shale). As the player I know it'll be fine, but there's no reason for the warden to think that a demon powerful enough to control so many people without even physically manifesting is going to be contained by an untrustworthy bloodmage(who the warden may have been betrayed by), a handful of knights, and an uncle who's already been controlled by it once.

 

And that's assuming Isolde doesn't manage to run off with it thinking to protect her son again. To my mind(and invariably that of my Wardens) she's even less trustworthy than Jowan. And even my Mage Wardens think that.

 

And then there's the question of whether or not the Circle would even help. Irving couldn't send a party of mages out without the Templars knowing, and Greagoir might simply order the child killed anyway. And if your character's a mage and you've not been to the Circle yet, that's a very likely assumption to make. And while Irving might like to find little ways of hindering Greagoir, he's not going to defend a possessed child and risk getting the entire Circle annulled as a result.

[Krypplingz]

-snip-

Which probably makes sacrificing Isolde the best way to save Connor.  As to trusting Jowan, remember, Teagan and the knights were able to subdue Jowan before without the Warden's help.  With a "mage in the Fade," there are still three team members to help Teagan and company should Jowan try to double cross them.

 

The quandary then is who to sacrifice?  Eamon's son or his wife?  Remember, Eamon represents one of the armies you need to fight the Blight.  If he finds out there were options other than killing Connor.....  OTOH, killing Isolde wouldn't please him either, though I suppose there's some poetic justice in it.  As to Connor's cameo in DAI, I think that highlights why he was worth saving.  He still feels remorse for a desperate but understandable decision he made as a juvenile mage.  If you opt to save the mages, in the nightmare future, Connor chooses to die rather than give in to the demons again.  As an adult mage, one could expect Connor to  warn other mages of the consequences of trying to deal with demons.

 

But can you afford to loose a mage? Especially if it's a party mage or your warden? The game also makes it sound as the mage only gets one chance and if the mage dies in the game Fade they die for real. _{Of course you have save/reload, but your character doesn't know that. And this argument would have been more viable in games like Baldurs Gate where none of the mages are critical to the plot and can be chunked willy nilly. But still.}

 

Sure your group can subdue Jowan, the demon and a rampaging tarasque in the real world. But the mage is alone and has a high risk of being killed, since lore wise desire demons are one of the most powerful demons and it's in it's element.Or the mage might fall for the demon viles and get possessed instead of Connor. _{(Which would have been an interesting development).}

So the question is: Does your character trust their mage to be alone with the siren song of a Desire demon? Especially if the player did not get to play them while in the Fade and had to rely only on their words.

 

As for who to sacrifice, Eamon might be understanding that you chose to execute the mage who let a demon take possession of them which led to the murders and mutilations of many of his towns citizens. It would be interesting to see this argument if Connor was a grown man and not the Arl's son. Would people be as forgiving then?

 

BUT I'm not saying that Connor is the only one to blame. I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of a person who just watched their child be dragged off and ripped apart by the undead during the siege and the desire to see the child avenged. There are plenty of factors deserving of a slice of the blame pie. 

The Chantry, Isolde, Loghain and Jowan all helped to create the situation. And the demon behind the wheel surely deserves the biggest slice of the blame pie since if it was a spirit of Compassion things might have gone a whole lot different. 

 

Either way, it is an interesting topic and I feel that all options are valid and can be justified. Even going the Fade route and making a deal with the demon. 

_{(Also sorry for the bad grammar, it's hard to communicate while sober.)}

[straykat]

 

 

Either way, it is an interesting topic and I feel that all options are valid and can be justified. Even going the Fade route and making a deal with the demon. 

_{(Also sorry for the bad grammar, it's hard to communicate while sober.)}

 

I can't find a way to justify it. I haven't done it in all these years I've owned the game. I ended up cheating and got the Spec Book in Awakenings.

 

What's funny is I notice many people take the Dark Ritual at the end. Which, in my view, isn't all that different. You're letting another kid get possessed... only from birth. Why that's easier, I don't know.