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[Lezio]

 

This is also gibberish.

The demon is more powerful at Redcliffe than in it's own domain,simply because in Redcliffe it is part of an abomination and can use the magical powers of Connor,in it's own domain it only has it's power in fact it is far more weak in the fade.

 

 

Not really. For gameplay purposes TO US fighting the fade is like fighting outside of it.

Now imagine fighting in a dream that doesn't belong to you where absolutely everything could be a trap. Plus, since you are a mage, you are a like a brilliant beacon to all kinds of demons

The Harrowing is called Harrowing for a reason

 

Also, as we've seen many times in the games, demons never last long in the living world because.... it's not their world and they don't understand it

[springacres]

Also, where did the rumours of demons at the Circle come from? The Templars have taken control of the only means of reaching the Circle, locked down the tower, and not even the guy who operated the boat knows what's going on. If there are rumours about what's happening, there really shouldn't be. And the underlined isn't known until the Warden gets there, and acting on information that the character cannot possibly have is metagaming. This undermines the very basis of your argument.

Not true.  The gossips outside the Lothering tavern mention the troubles of Kinloch Hold in one of their random banters.  (My M!Surana heard that and would have dragged the rest of the party to Kinloch by main force if he had to.)

[Callidus Thorn]

I pointed out that Redcliffe can't be the first destination for timeline reasons because if it is picked as the first one Jowan doesn't have the time to do anything and the undead invasion shouldn't be there yet.

 
Sure, it's a plothole. But we can only decide that once we reach the castle, which is some time after we decide to go there. Making the decision based on that is metagaming, because it means using information that the player has not been given yet. If we stick strictly to what we're presented with at the time when we leave Lothering, then Redcliffe is the most valid choice of first destination, for the reasons I listed previously.
 

Redcliffe can be done before the circle and still there is the option to go to the circle and have an extra reasons to not want to annul it.Comprehend now that is not metagame?

 
That depends very much on the circumstances. as I mentioned, if your character is a mage, then you'll have pissed off Greagoir, and potentially Irving as well. Expecting them to help at that point is a real stretch, and even if you didn't cross Irving, we still see that he's not willing to stand directly against Greagoir. Greagoir could easily demand that Connor be killed as an abomination, and for Irving to try anything directly would have him defending what the Templars perceive to be an abomination, which could give Greagoir grounds to call for Annulment.
 
There are legitimate reasons why the Warden might not expect the help of the Circle. And going there without any knowledge of what's waiting for you, as you would for any non-Mage origin, relies entirely on the Mages being inclined to help. Since you haven't met any of them but Wynne, and have no idea if she even survived, there's no guarantee of their aid.
 
Sure, it gives the player more reason to support the Mages, and the Warden, but it's still a shot in the dark.
 

The demon doesn't know anything about the plan to fight it in it's own domain  it only need Connor,so it has no reason to want to trigg others fights that could possibly lead to the host death since the spirit of desire want Connor alive.

based on this premises the warden has every reason to believe that this demon will try to avoid battles from now on it is also what Connor said when he describe this spirit.
So you can play the child murderer and try to justify it as a necessary act all you want but nothing will change the facts,that is not necessary.

 
The demon doesn't need to know the plan. It knows that it has an enemy, and the only reason for the Warden's departure can be to find a way to defeat it without killing Connor. The Warden knows for a fact that the demon can control others, including Bann Teagan, and we've nothing to suggest that it couldn't do the same to the knights, few in number as they are. And as for it's inclination to avoid battles, Connor might freak out in the face of violence, but the demon was more than happy to kill an entire village. Even if it does nothing more than muster some more thralls while the warden is gone, it can still threaten the village again.
 
Also, let's not forget that if the Warden goes to Redcliffe first, then makes a run for the Circle, only to find it fallen to demons and sealed by the Templars, the logical decision there is to go back and kill the kid. Or accept Jowan's alternative. Facing an unknown number of demons to try to save mages who may or may not be alive is not a strategically viable decision. If the mages are dead, then the Warden has done nothing but waste time. And if they're alive, they may not be too inclined to help a boy possessed by a demon, even if they are able, which has to be a question for the Warden.
 

Not true. The gossips outside the Lothering tavern mention the troubles of Kinloch Hold in one of their random banters. (My M!Surana heard that and would have dragged the rest of the party to Kinloch by main force if he had to.)

 

Don't recall hearing that one. Do they specifically mention demons? And it's still peculiar that word of what was happening would have gotten that far.

[Aren]

Not really. For gameplay purposes TO US fighting the fade is like fighting outside of it.

Now imagine fighting in a dream that doesn't belong to you where absolutely everything could be a trap. Plus, since you are a mage, you are a like a brilliant beacon to all kinds of demons

The Harrowing is called Harrowing for a reason

 

Also, as we've seen many times in the games, demons never last long in the living world because.... it's not their world and they don't understand it

Mages often go into the fade,so it is not so alien for them.

The spirit of desire is more weak in the fade because it cannot use the magical abilities of Connor.

 

 
Sure, it's a plothole. But we can only decide that once we reach the castle, which is some time after we decide to go there. Making the decision based on that is metagaming, because it means using information that the player has not been given yet. If we stick strictly to what we're presented with at the time when we leave Lothering, then Redcliffe is the most valid choice of first destination, for the reasons I listed previously.
 

 

It is not metagame because no decision is made upon the thought of timeline issues is just a plot hole.

The warden can go to Redcliffe and there should be no undead invasion  nor Connor had the chance to contact the demon for timeline issues basically the problem would have been solved immediatly.

Go to Redcliffe is not necessarily the most logical choice,to me it isn't there are others options like  try to reclaim the grey warden fortress to have an operational base near Denerim and also to speak with an ancient grey warden with whom the plot forbidden to talk about the blight because Gaider forbid the player to know the archdemon secret and how to perform the joining for the ending nosense.

 

 

Also, let's not forget that if the Warden goes to Redcliffe first, then makes a run for the Circle, only to find it fallen to demons and sealed by the Templars, the logical decision there is to go back and kill the kid. 

I think is plain stupid because it mean you lost 4 weeks of travel,clean the tower from the demons it require a less amount of time than 2 weeks and is part of the main quest,with Connor there are still the knights and Jowan and there is no need of the warden.

 

 Or accept Jowan's alternative. Facing an unknown number of demons to try to save mages who may or may not be alive is not a strategically viable decision. If the mages are dead, then the Warden has done nothing but waste time. And if they're alive, they may not be too inclined to help a boy possessed by a demon, even if they are able, which has to be a question for the Warden.

 

 

 

The mages are required for the army not just to help Connor,so yes actually is pretty intelligent to want to save them in any case and there is no need for Jowan blood magic.

 

 

The demon doesn't need to know the plan. It knows that it has an enemy, and the only reason for the Warden's departure can be to find a way to defeat it without killing Connor. The Warden knows for a fact that the demon can control others, including Bann Teagan, and we've nothing to suggest that it couldn't do the same to the knights, few in number as they are. And as for it's inclination to avoid battles, Connor might freak out in the face of violence, but the demon was more than happy to kill an entire village. Even if it does nothing more than muster some more thralls while the warden is gone, it can still threaten the village again.
 

The mind controlling of the demon is a form of magic that only worked on Tegan(i don't eve know how) but never influenced Isolde and  that can be countered with the presence of another mage and Jowan is there.

The spirit was not able to control the knights and Ser Perth it only controlled  Tegan.

[Callidus Thorn]

It is not metagame because no decision is made upon the thought of timeline is just a different concept.

 
So if it's not influencing the decision is there really any point discussing it? It's a potential plothole, but it's not the only one in the game, nor is it the biggest.
 

I think is plain stupid because it mean you lost 4 weeks of travel,clean the tower from the demon's it require a less amount of time than 2 weeks,with COnnor there are still the knights and Jowan and there is no need of the warden.

 
Redcliffe is needed as much as the Circle, if not more. Jowan is untrustworthy, being a bloodmage and a potential assassin. As for the knights, I'll get back to them later. Reaching the Circle you've no way of knowing how many mages are still alive, and the situation is contained. Considering the unknown number of demons in the Circle, going back to take out the demon in Redcliffe before risking life and limb isn't a bad idea.
 

The mages are required for the army not just to help Connor,so yes actually is pretty intelligent to want to save them in any case and there is no need for Jowan blood magic.

The King of Ferelden was only able to get a handful of mages for the army, even with the Grey Wardens alongside him. All you've got is a treaty that goes up against Loghain's accusations of treason on the part of the Warden's. How much help you'll actually get from the Circle is an unknown. Especially when you don't know how many of them are even alive.
 

The mind controlling of the demon is a form of magic that only worked on Tegan(i don't eve know how) but never influenced Isolde and that can be countered with the presence of another mage and Jowan is there.
The spirit was not able to control the knights and Ser Perth it only controlled Tegan.

 

Isolde never needed to be controlled, as the demon said, she did what she was told. It also controlled the guards that were in the room with crossbows, so it's not limited to one person. The demon didn't control the knights in the handful of seconds it had before it left the room, that's no guarantee that it can't control them. And there may only be Ser Perth left by that point. Whether it had the knights sent away because there were too many to control at once or because it couldn't control any of them is a complete unknown. But at that point Redcliffe is vulnerable, and leaving the demon that did all the damage is a definite risk.

[Lezio]

 

Mages often go into the fade,so it is not so alien for them.

The spirit of desire is more weak in the fade because it cannot use the magical abilities of Connor.

 

 

And everytime they go there they risk A LOT. As Wynne often said, just one moment and it's all over

I'm 99% sure an abomination's power is entirely dependant on the demon's power, not the one of the mage, so even if Connor was really powerful, which he clearly isn't, it probably wouldn't make a huge difference, if at all(the only exception, i think, are dreamers because they are basically creatures of both the fade and the living world). And, as i said, demons die quickly in the living world because they're fighting in unknowk territory, while they have an a natural advantage in the Fade because they can shape it as they please (and we have many examples of this, the sloth demon even straight up takes The Warden into the Fade to get an advantage)

[springacres]

<snip>

 Don't recall hearing that one. Do they specifically mention demons? And it's still peculiar that word of what was happening would have gotten that far.

<snip>

They do.  The first line mentions that the speaker heard it from his templar cousin.  (I just completed Lothering with my F!Brosca, who was looking for any excuse not to go back to Orzammar just yet and is none too sure about heading to Redcliffe to deal with human nobles right away either.)

[Apo]

If you can ask the templar in Lothering chantry about how templars fight mages he'll tell you that news from the circle are not good and Alistair will comment that the GW must go there to get the help of the mages.

But once you get there, you learn that everything is going to ****, so unless you're a mage supporter to the core, the best conclusion is to side with templars because as crazy as Cullen can be in Origins, he he be right that every mage can be a potential threat.

 

I choose the templars with 2 of my characters and both sacrificed Connor, not without regret for the m!Cousland though.

[nightscrawl]

There are some scenarios.

 

On my very first play, with no meta knowledge whatsoever, I used the blood magic. You can consider the words of the NPCs there and think that the situation is too dire to risk taking the time to journey to the Circle. You have no idea what will happen in the meantime if you leave. This is especially plausible if you are playing a dwarf or Cousland PC who is ignorant or dubious of magic, so you might not put any stock in that idea.

 

On those plays that I did not go to the Circle, I use blood magic with the reasoning that Isolde is willing to sacrifice her life for her son, as most mothers would, so I let her do that. BUT, again you can be playing a person who is ignorant or distrustful of mages and/or magic, and the bulk of this quest would only solidify that belief. The choice in that case would be to physically kill Connor yourself to end the whole mess.

 

You'll also get differing views depending on the followers you choose to bring along, which may influence your decision.

[straykat]

If you can ask the templar in Lothering chantry about how templars fight mages he'll tell you that news from the circle are not good and Alistair will comment that the GW must go there to get the help of the mages.

But once you get there, you learn that everything is going to ****, so unless you're a mage supporter to the core, the best conclusion is to side with templars because as crazy as Cullen can be in Origins, he he be right that every mage can be a potential threat.

 

I choose the templars with 2 of my characters and both sacrificed Connor, not without regret for the m!Cousland though.

 

I can see it that way, but I can never bring myself to kill Wynne and follow Cullen right away. If I side with Templars, it's only after the fight.

 

On a sidenote, I also dislike that Wynne doesn't have as much dialogue if you do this. She doesn't tell you as many stories about the Wardens, your origin story, or about her upbringing in the Circle this way. I guess she's too scared. lol

[springacres]

I can see it that way, but I can never bring myself to kill Wynne and follow Cullen right away. If I side with Templars, it's only after the fight.

 

On a sidenote, I also dislike that Wynne doesn't have as much dialogue if you do this. She doesn't tell you as many stories about the Wardens, your origin story, or about her upbringing in the Circle this way. I guess she's too scared. lol

I have yet to side with the Templars, but if I ever do, I can only see myself doing it after defeating Uldred, or if playing a super strict Andrastian HN who hasn't yet gone to Redcliffe.

[Apo]

I can see it that way, but I can never bring myself to kill Wynne and follow Cullen right away. If I side with Templars, it's only after the fight.

 

On a sidenote, I also dislike that Wynne doesn't have as much dialogue if you do this. She doesn't tell you as many stories about the Wardens, your origin story, or about her upbringing in the Circle this way. I guess she's too scared. lol

 

I didn't kill Wynne with my human noble, I don't know yet what will be the case with the dwarf noble because i'll play him as a ruthless guy but I also need a healer

[Fylimar]

Without judging whether Redcliffe should be the first station or not  - I guess, that depends on how your character views Alistair: does he trust him or not? - you could rationalize it with safety and control. A non-mage or a very inexperienced mage (like a Surana or Amell fresh out of the Harrowing) probably wont know, if there is a way to safe Connor and destroying the demon. Jowan isn't the most trustworthy guy - he is a blood mage and you can argue, that he maybe wants the demon to survive. People in Thedas seem to be extreemly scared of demons and abominations - and of course of mages. So as a non mage, you could be such a scared person too, as a mage, you had an insightful conversation with Cullen (or maybe it was Greagoire before your Harrowing who mentioned it) about how the only way to stop someone possessed by a demon is to kill the person.

So you can easily justify killing Connor  - even as a good person. On my first playthrough I nearly killed Connor too. I didn't trust Jowan. Luckily, I did the Circle first and had Wynne with me, who suggested to ask the Circle for help - otherwise, I probably would have killed Connor just to be on the safe side.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I find this title confusing. It seems to me that unless you metagame at least a bit, you're most likely going to kill Connor. The other two options given are to either trust a blood mage who attempted to assassinate Eamon not to betray you using the power he's killing Isolde for (I did this on my first playthrough for the metagame reason that I could load if Jowan did betray me) or to leave Redcliffe unsupervised while you go beg help from the Circle. Trusting Redcliffe's knights to be able to handle Connor is a real stretch. Even Templars are in serious danger when they fight an abomination, and they're the experts at it. I suppose one could roleplay a character who wasn't entirely aware of how dangerous Connor was, but between the fact that he raised an army of the dead (yes, it's gone, but he had enough power to make one) and his mind-control abilities it would be a real stretch to say they don't know enough to give them cause for concern. (And mages don't even have this excuse, since they'll have had it drilled into their heads just how bad an abomination is from day one.) Having Jowan around would help, but not necessarily by enough; he's one mage against an abomination. Combine that with the fact that he's got good reason to run like hell while you're not looking, and using him against the demon seems like a seriously risky idea.

 

And having already gone to the Circle Tower seems like it would make a Warden who was deciding this without our help more likely to kill Connor, not less. I'm not just talking about the fact that this hypothetical Warden has seen abominations in action at that point. Gregoir states that his entire army of Templars was "prepared for one or two abominations." If an entire army of knights trained to handle magic is prepared for one abomination, but handling three would be pushing it, what odds would you give handful of knights who don't have templar abilities against one?

 

I suppose one could theoretically decide all of this risk is worth it even in roleplay, but that really doesn't seem to say anything good about your Warden. You the player have the excuse that all the lives you're gambling with don't matter because this is just a game. Your Warden doesn't.

[ThomasBlaine]

I find this title confusing. It seems to me that unless you metagame at least a bit, you're most likely going to kill Connor. The other two options given are to either trust a blood mage who attempted to assassinate Eamon not to betray you using the power he's killing Isolde for (I did this on my first playthrough for the metagame reason that I could load if Jowan did betray me) or to leave Redcliffe unsupervised while you go beg help from the Circle. Trusting Redcliffe's knights to be able to handle Connor is a real stretch. Even Templars are in serious danger when they fight an abomination, and they're the experts at it. I suppose one could roleplay a character who wasn't entirely aware of how dangerous Connor was, but between the fact that he raised an army of the dead (yes, it's gone, but he had enough power to make one) and his mind-control abilities it would be a real stretch to say they don't know enough to give them cause for concern. (And mages don't even have this excuse, since they'll have had it drilled into their heads just how bad an abomination is from day one.) Having Jowan around would help, but not necessarily by enough; he's one mage against an abomination. Combine that with the fact that he's got good reason to run like hell while you're not looking, and using him against the demon seems like a seriously risky idea.

 

And having already gone to the Circle Tower seems like it would make a Warden who was deciding this without our help more likely to kill Connor, not less. I'm not just talking about the fact that this hypothetical Warden has seen abominations in action at that point. Gregoir states that his entire army of Templars was "prepared for one or two abominations." If an entire army of knights trained to handle magic is prepared for one abomination, but handling three would be pushing it, what odds would you give handful of knights who don't have templar abilities against one?

 

I suppose one could theoretically decide all of this risk is worth it even in roleplay, but that really doesn't seem to say anything good about your Warden. You the player have the excuse that all the lives you're gambling with don't matter because this is just a game. Your Warden doesn't.

 

There is the matter of you needing his father's help and trust if you hope to have human forces to direct against the darkspawn, and that working with any amount of mages to exercise the demon would seem more likely to do so in a way that preserves Eamon's life than killing it outright along with his son.

 

But yeah, well reasoned.

[straykat]

There is the matter of you needing his father's help and trust if you hope to have human forces to direct against the darkspawn, and that working with any amount of mages to exercise the demon would seem more likely to do so in a way that preserves Eamon's life than killing it outright along with his son.

 

But yeah, well reasoned.

 

Other things offset that. You're a Warden (which is inherently admirable) and you saved his life.. and not only save his life, but (probably) saved Redcliffe, and discovered the Sacred Ashes.. which puts you on an almost reverential level (even if the truth turned out to be the sinister version). The loss of his son is tough for him, I'm sure.. but even if he wanted to oppose you, no one else would have it.

[ThomasBlaine]

Other things offset that. You're a Warden (which is inherently admirable) and you saved his life.. and not only save his life, but (probably) saved Redcliffe, and discovered the Sacred Ashes.. which puts you on an almost reverential level (even if the truth turned out to be the sinister version). The loss of his son is tough for him, I'm sure.. but even if he wanted to oppose you, no one else would have it.

 

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think you're actually told that you need to recover the Sacred Ashes to save Eamon until after you've made the decision of what to do with Conner. I remember being under the impression that killing the demon might cause him to wake up, at which point the question of whether you'd just killed his heir, his wife or neither would seem pretty likely to color your dealings regardless of how justifiable it was.

 

And you don't just need him to not oppose you, you need him to throw in all the support and resources he can muster and personally back your efforts to oppose Loghain at the risk of sparking a civil war that would doom the country even more than it already is. It doesn't matter how popular zombie-killing made you in Redcliffe, no amount of peer pressure would make him commit his arldom to that if he didn't personally trust you enough to see it as both viable and necessary.

 

Of course it turns out that his awakening requires another great demonstration of the Warden's capabilities, and that when he finally does wake up he's instantly scheming to depose Loghain with barely a word from you and only a cursory moment of grief at worst. But all you know before dealing with Connor is that you need his father to wake up and must then convince him to take some seriously drastic action on your behalf. Alistair's childhood memories of a "good man" who would never stand for Loghain's evil treachery can't exactly be relied upon.

[Aren]

Gregoir states that his entire army of Templars was "prepared for one or two abominations." If an entire army of knights trained to handle magic is prepared for one abomination, but handling three would be pushing it, what odds would you give handful of knights who don't have templar abilities against one?

 

 

This is a case of gameplay and lore segregation.

The specialists of Gregoir were prepared for two abominations at best but the warden can kill them all on solo even if it is not a templar.

 

 

I don't think that Jowan has reasons to want to escape since he could have done that at any time when he was released.

[straykat]

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think you're actually told that you need to recover the Sacred Ashes to save Eamon until after you've made the decision of what to do with Conner. I remember being under the impression that killing the demon might cause him to wake up, at which point the question of whether you'd just killed his heir, his wife or neither would seem pretty likely to color your dealings regardless of how justifiable it was.

 

And you don't just need him to not oppose you, you need him to throw in all the support and resources he can muster and personally back your efforts to oppose Loghain at the risk of sparking a civil war that would doom the country even more than it already is. It doesn't matter how popular zombie-killing made you in Redcliffe, no amount of peer pressure would make him commit his arldom to that if he didn't personally trust you enough to see it as both viable and necessary.

 

Of course it turns out that his awakening requires another great demonstration of the Warden's capabilities, and that when he finally does wake up he's instantly scheming to depose Loghain with barely a word from you. But all you know before dealing with Connor is that you need his father to wake up and must then convince him to take some seriously drastic action on your behalf. Alistair's childhood memories of a "good man" who would never stand for Loghain's evil treachery can't exactly be relied upon.

 

True enough. I think you're right on the timing there.

 

I just don't think he's the type of person who would overlook it later. All of it added up makes him grateful, despite his loss. Maybe Alistair would throw a fit, but not Eamon.

[ThomasBlaine]

True enough. I think you're right on the timing there.

 

I just don't think he's the type of person who would overlook it later. All of it added up makes him grateful, despite his loss. Maybe Alistair would throw a fit, but not Eamon.

 

Definitely not, and the whole crisis affords him an opportunity to install Alistair as his puppet king, so as it turns out we don't need to motivate him in the slightest. We don't know that beforehand, though. If the Warden starts out thinking in terms of eventually having to convince Eamon to really stick his neck out, going the extra mile and saving both the man's son and wife would seem like a good place to start,

[straykat]

Definitely not, and the whole crisis affords him an opportunity to install Alistair as his puppet king, so as it turns out we don't need to motivate him in the slightest. We don't know that beforehand, though. If the Warden starts out thinking in terms of eventually having to convince Eamon to really stick his neck out, going the extra mile and saving both the man's son and wife would seem like a good place to start,

 

I could see that, I guess. I'll concede here. It seems dangerous, but could still make sense.

 

Mostly my main way of viewing Connor's death is as an accident... like I said in my original post in this thread. I originally made the mistake of entering Eamon's room...which made Connor freak out. But I also see going to the Circle first and siding with Templars as a natural choice. Both of them had good intentions. It wasn't to screw over Eamon or be malicious against the boy.

[nightscrawl]

Without judging whether Redcliffe should be the first station or not  - I guess, that depends on how your character views Alistair: does he trust him or not? - you could rationalize it with safety and control.

I don't think it has to come down to trusting Alistair. There are a pair of human men who gossip outside of the Lothering tavern, and also outside the gates of Orzammar. From them you can overhear that there is some trouble going on at the mage tower and may become concerned and wish to go there yourself and see. At that point, I think it is even easier to select the option at Redcliffe to say, "They owe me." You may still think that the time differential may not be worth the risk, which is certainly a valid RP choice, but playing a mage and going to the mages first makes the choice more plausible.

[straykat]

Lothering has moments where it either urges you to Redcliffe or the Circle. They're both kind of natural first stops, I thought. Even the codex in DA2/DAI starts with the Warden going to Kinloch Hold (History the 5th Blight).

[Apo]

And according to Dragon Age Keep, the HoF starts by Redcliffe and then the circle.

[straykat]

And according to Dragon Age Keep, the HoF starts by Redcliffe and then the circle.

 

Yeah, I noticed that. Either way, works good imo.

 

At this point, I go to the Circle first to get my Cunning boost as quick as possible. And not screw myself with persuade checks in Redcliffe or Shale's quest. It's bad enough if one kid dies on me... two is too much.