9 ответов в этой теме

[igor140]

i need a break from my goody-two-shoes paladin (who is almost finished with MotB), and i like the look and feel of the warlock, but i'm running into some conflicting information.  my ideal play-style is to throw in a few nukes from range, and then have the flexibility to either defend the casters or charge into the melee and pick off stragglers.  

 

so i THINK i've got this planned out properly, i'm just looking for some confirmation (and clarification) here.

 

i am running kaedrin's PrC mod, and i don't intend to drop it.  i've also got Warlock Buddy, and i like that as well (i started a warlock run with the icewind dale mod, but i didn't care for the story.)

 

so in terms of planning, the warlock is 3 high BAB classes short of a sixth attack (at lvl 30).  between that and Warlock Buddy, it seems like there's no reason NOT to multiclass for 3 levels, grab "practiced spellcaster" somewhere along the way, and be at least competent at melee.

as i understand it, hideous blow-- as changed by Warlock Buddy-- applies only to the FIRST of any successful melee strike.  meaning that i'm not going to be a melee powerhouse, but certainly not as frail and defenseless as a wizard.  between that and (up to) medium armor, i'm not going to BE the front-line, but i can easily float from the front to the back as needed... which (as described above) is exactly what i want.

now, as i understand it, the vanilla game allowed you to stack "dark one's own luck" and "dark blessing" (from blackguard), meaning that it made a lot of sense to multi-class with blackguard for absolutely massive saving throws across the board.  however, kaedrin changed that such that they no longer stack... meaning that the wasted skill points and time unlocking blackguard are not worth it anymore... right?  

so instead i'm thinking 3 levels of fighter, allowing for more feats and fewer other distractions.  i've compared the two builds, and the fighter means i can get away with lower INT (because i don't need as many skills), and thus more STR.  in addition, the fighter version gets some good melee-related feats (blind-fight, etc).

assuming that's all good, the final question i have is: epic fiendish resilience or vampiric feast?  i'm leaning towards vampiric feast because i'll already have another (albeit much worse) fiendish resilience... and vampiric feast kind of fits in with my style : )

soo... thoughts?  advice?  do i have the mechanics correct, under kaedrin's new rules, or am i still better off going with blackguard for some reason?

[Raygereio]

If you're using Kaedrin's and want your Warlock to be competent in melee range, I'd forget about those fighter levels and dump Hideous Blow like the hideous thing it is.

Check out Eldritch Glaive. It's a melee touch blast shape.

[igor140]

why?  unless i'm missing something from the builder (i'd be happy to link the builds if i could figure out how...), the last 3 levels of warlock only add a little bit more elemental resistance.  

comparing the two builds (27War/ 3F vs 30War):

feats are basically the same (the fighter technically gets one more, but needs to use it on Practiced Invoker)

saving throws are almost identical

HP is slightly higher with the fighter version

both get 14d6 eldritch blast and qualify for +5d6 epic blast damage, as well as eldritch master, etc

fighter version gets better weapon* and armor options

*i know that the weapon doesn't matter at all for the glaive, but it does (very very slightly) for hideous blow-- especially early on-- plus it gives more "role- playing" options : )

are there other advantages to the last 3 warlock levels that i'm missing?  (other than the obvious "you get those invocations earlier")

[BoardGuest808888l]

Well,
1. To be a really powerful warlock, you need more skills, not muscle. Never drop your INT below 14. Being fighter contributes absolutely nothing for your warlock, just drop the idea. Consider this, you plan on using Practiced Spellcaster in conjunction with Blind-Fight while you didn't plan to melee anyway ? What's the point ?

It is widely known a carefully built warlock can out-damage/BAB fighter anyway. Why add weaker class when you can do good
without ?

2. Kaedrin's eldritch glaive is capped at 2 blasts per cast, so you aren't going to do 5x glaives (the glaives replace your melee attack). However, eldritch blow add a blast to your normal attacks.

If you use very powerful weapon(s), eldritch blow can potentially do more damage. On the other hand, if your blast damage is far higher than your held weapon, eldritch glaive will do more damage.

3. Between Epic Fiendish Resilience & Vampiric Feast, neither is really that awesome. Vampiric Feast can at least one-hit-KO lot of critters, so it is marginally more useful. Things that can regenerate your HP are not exactly that hard to come by at epic level.

4. To make really powerful warlock, you'll want races with bonus to CHA, as this makes your invocations/blasts even more difficult to resist. Unfortunately, none of these races have warlock or fighter as their favorite class, thus you will get XP penalty if you try to multi-class your warlock with fighter when using these races. So, yeah, there 'is' a reason not to multi-class your warlock to fighter.

[igor140]

well, i DO plan to melee...  as i understand them, both the glaive and hideous blow are based off of "melee touch", not strictly "melee".  if i understand http://nwn2.wikia.co...ki/Touch_attack correctly, invisibility/ blindness is still a factor in melee touches, which means that regardless of which invocation i use, blind-fight will help.

i keep reading conflicting info about eldritch glaive.  you mention that it only proc's twice.  nwn2db.com mentions that it hits up to four times.  kaedrin's website says that he hasn't decided whether to do two or four (as of four years ago)... i suppose i could experiment some, but as complicated as the mechanics are for this game, i'd rather get some straight answers if anyone has them.

why is INT important for a warlock?  with 10 INT, i can max out spellcraft, concentration, and intimidate (for RP/ plot purposes).  i understand that warlocks get a bonus to Use Magical Device... but i've never found that overly useful (maybe i'm missing out).  in the meantime, that's six stat points that could be put into either STR or CHA.

 

i understand the importance of CHA for a warlock... but if i understand you correctly, you're suggesting that i choose my race (limiting my character build) in favor of CHA, but then boost INT instead...?  i'm not sure i'm understanding the reasoning behind all of this.

if not fiendish resilience or vampiric feast, what would you suggest?  more eldritch blast?  i guess that makes sense, but near end game, another epic eldritch blast feat deals an additional 1-6 dmg.  vampiric feast deals... all the damage (or at least half).  

in general, i understand that taking 3 levels of fighter is not going to turn him monstrously powerful or anything, but i also don't see how 3 more levels of warlock does... anything at all.  you get the 14d6 blast at lvl 27.  they gain no feats/ spells/ bonuses after this point; they have worse BAB and HP progression... so what's the point?

[BoardGuest808888l]

Invisibility and Blindness are factors for fighter, yes. But they're really non-factors for warlock. You need to stop thinking a warlock the same way as your previous Paladin build. They work differently. Very differently. For instance, warlock can see through invisibility, strip the 'invisibility' status of his enemies and cancel Blindness. More, warlock gain eldritch blast shapes (cone & doom) that don't even use touch attack. Warlock is more versatile than fighter. If it is clear your target can't be touched, why bother ?

I used the latest version of Kaedrin's Pack (ver 1.42). Eldritch glaive does 2 attacks (confirmed). He claimed that for 'balance' factor. Of course you can change that if you edit the 2da file, but unless you know your way through toolsets, I won't recommend it.

INT is not important for warlock if all you want is an eldritch blast dispenser (which is the least powerful of warlock kind). However, if you want a well-rounded character, it is a good idea to invest on INT. It gives you more skills, and more versatility to your warlock. If you play official campaigns, a right assortment of skills will give you more result too (plot-wise).

About Use Magic Device (UMD), I think due to poor writing on the devs side, this skill is the most often overlooked, especially by new players. And yes, it is a rather advanced skill. Thing is, if you understand how it works, you'll find it one of the most powerful skill available to you. I recommend you to invest on this skill. Not only it allow you to use various class/race/alignment specific items, but also eventually allow you to use all spells from all sources (divine, arcane, druidic, ranger, paladin). This is why a warlock can outperform most fighter build. There is always a spell to do 'it'. Whatever you want 'it' to be.

[BoardGuest808888l]

For epic feats, there is not much feats that actually sound 'epic', even for warlock. An extra blast damage is always nice, considering this is your main forte and you get 50% on top of it from Eldritch Master. If you use Kaedrin's Pack, take a look at Master of All Essences.

Now, I'm not against multi-classing your warlock to fighter, it's your game after all. Thing is, it doesn't contribute to your warlock at all. Like I said, there is always a spell for whatever you want, and UMD allow your warlock to access all spells. Want more BAB ? Divine Power gives you full BAB (30 at level 30), without being any melee class. Want more protection ? Defense against spells ? Need to dispell things ? True Seeing ? Immunity to whatever ? Heal yourself ? Not enough buffs ? Not enough debuffs ? Just grab the right scrolls/wand. And there is etherealness too. You already know just how poweful this one thing, yes ?

Generally, you want to be fighter if it is strictly required (say, by plot), or you want to go with prestige class which requires tons of feats like Invisible Blade or Weapon Master. Since it is neither in your case, no point in being fighter. If you want to multi-class, at least choose class which give you better options or specific features not available by anything outside that class. That will give your warlock more versatility and power. Example :
Wizard, gives you ability to scribe your own scrolls, craft wands, a familiar.
Cleric, gives you an assortment of armors, extra feats (with Kaedrin's, some of these are even epic feats), make your own clerical scrolls/wand, turn undead, access to divine might/shield/whatever.
Rogue, gives you evasion (double good as you can add CHA bonus to reflex), sneak attack and tons of skills.
Bard, gives you access to Inspiration, Bard Song, more skills, some magic too.
Druid, gives you access to druidic spells and a bear.
Hellfire warlock, if you can't find any use of more warlock levels at 27, being a hellfire warlock is almost always a good option.

[igor140]

oooooh ok.  thank you for clarifying that.  i was not aware that UMD did all that... i'll give it a try.  

 

i was also not aware (until your post inspired me to look it up) that warlocks have several options to reveal invisible enemies... also a game-changer.  

[igor140]

update:

i can officially state that eldritch glaive is absolutely, completely, 100% inferior to hideous blow... at least for the first half of the game (again, assuming Warlock Buddy). 

 

eldritch glaive is subject to being interrupted.  during the first half of the game, your concentration isn't high enough to consistently prevent being interrupted, meaning that your entire ability to fight in melee is marginalized in an unacceptable way. 

 

In the first half of the game (up to ~lvl 14), EG only hits once.  HB also only hits once... on top of your weapon damage... which cannot be interrupted. 

 

EG cannot activate cleave; HB can.  granted, even with Warlock Buddy, the cleave hits do not consistently apply HB again, but "rarely" is better than "never".

 

EG and weapon attacks (and thus HB) are both based off of melee prowess, so they both need a modicum of STR to be worthwhile... except that wielding a +3 weapon helps the accuracy of the weapon attack, and i don't THINK it helps EG (being the difference between melee attack and melee touch, if i understand correctly).  i'd appreciate it if some one could corroborate/ refute this point though.

 

EG doesn't even get a second attack until around lvl 14, but even then will hit so seldom that you're STILL better off with the extra weapon damage associated with HB.

 

so, based upon my rough calculations, HB completely eclipses EG until at least lvl 16 or 17.  even then, it's pretty much a wash one way or the other until MotB.  it isn't until then that eldritch blast completely surpasses melee attacks; it isn't until then EG has a legitimate chance of hitting twice; and it isn't until then that concentration is high enough to withstand a worthwhile percentage of interruptions. 

sooo... yeah.  fortunately, you can switch out your skills at every level up, so my suggestion (having been extremely frustrated with EG for the first 6 levels) is to wait until lvl 15- 17 or so to sub in EG.

[BoardGuest808888l]

Did you use Chasuble of Fel Power ? It will increase your blast damage by +/- 20-30%