183 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

Here's a crazy idea; instead of the Inquisitor soiling his drawers and leaving someone behind as a tethered goat for the Nightmare to munch on before launching into a rousing chorus of "Brave Sir Robin Ran Away", how about they just kill the damn thing?

 

Seriously, you have the Warden, Hawke and the Inquisitor all working together. What the hell are you waiting for, a Titan Legion? The three of them should be more than capable of putting the Nightmare down, once and for all. Hell, the Warden could probably do it by himself. And before anyone says that the Nightmare is too powerful, remember that this is a franchise that's had the heroes killing seemingly unstoppable giant monsters since day one. As a matter of fact, that's how most RPGs (or video games in general) work, really. Being big and tough didn't stop the heroes from beating Lavos or Eredin or Alduin the World-Eater or the Master or the Prime Evils or Legate Lanius, so why in the world should it stop them here?

Because the circumstances are much more different that they were in those games.

 

Just being in the fade itself is a game changer.

Then there's the fact of what Nightmare actually is. He isn't just a "big demon" like the Pride demons you usually face, he's a creature that literally derives its power from primordial fear of the blight. It's no sloth demon that leeches onto your weak memories you may overcome, or a Pride demon that knows exactly how to probe at you--these are things you can overcome if you have the strong will to accomplish it. But the nightmare does not rely on such comparatively 'shallow' concepts, it goes right into the heart of a universal fear (hence why fear is one of the oldest concepts) by drawing upon the fear of the blight.

 

For that reason alone he cannot be easily vanquished by conventional means. Trying to overcome the instinctive fear of the blight is much like trying to overcome the fear of touching fire--it simply can't be done. If the Nightmare must die, it would have to be done by skill and power alone--and that too would not likely work. In the real world, perhaps, but you were in the fade when you encountered the Nightmare. The rules in the fade are vastly different there than it is comparison to real world.

 

To use your 'other RPGs' comparisons, I suppose you could say the Inquisitor going up against the Nightmare would be much akin to the Hero of Kvatch going up against Mehrunes Dagon's actual form---he may be defeated, but he will only reform in his own real later.

 

But of course, this all speculation. Just like it is speculation that the Inquisitor can defeat Nightmare.

[BansheeOwnage]

But the nightmare does not rely on such comparatively 'shallow' concepts, it goes right into the heart of a universal fear (hence why fear is one of the oldest concepts) by drawing upon the fear of the blight.

 

For that reason alone he cannot be easily vanquished by conventional means. Trying to overcome the instinctive fear of the blight is much like trying to overcome the fear of touching fire--it simply can't be done.

I disagree. You don't have to outsmart a pride demon or be humble to kill it. You can just hack it to death. Why not the Nightmare? You don't need to overcome fear to kill it.

[Xerrai]

I disagree. You don't have to outsmart a pride demon or be humble to kill it. You can just hack it to death. Why not the Nightmare? You don't need to overcome fear to kill it.

That's why I said it would have to done with skill/power. Usually when you battle a demon in the fade, it is usually done through a battle of wills because head-on fights are not as effective. But then again, those were usually instances where the demon wanted to obtain something from you.

[BansheeOwnage]

That's why I said it would have to done with skill/power. Usually when you battle a demon in the fade, it is usually done through a battle of wills because head-on fights are not as effective. But then again, those were usually instances where the demon wanted to obtain something from you.

And also when they fight really was in your head (though also in the fade). In this case, you're physically in the fade.

[Xerrai]

And also when they fight really was in your head (though also in the fade). In this case, you're physically in the fade.

That is right. But the fade is nothing like the world we usually live in. In a world where it things emotion and concepts reign supreme, it is doubtful if the Inquisitor and his/her companions can even begin to match the power of the Nightmare in his own territory. It may not be impossible, but it is doubtful. Exceedingly so.

[Sandal Negindar]

Warden was, is and will ever be the only character I could ever care about so goodbye Hawke.

[GoldenGail3]

That's amusing.

 

Great minds think alike?

Yep! I'm sure that my Mage Hawke would be sort of chill about being left in the fade... While my Queen Cousland escapes from the fade, unscathed. 

[Vanilka]

Because the circumstances are much more different that they were in those games.

 

Just being in the fade itself is a game changer.

Then there's the fact of what Nightmare actually is. He isn't just a "big demon" like the Pride demons you usually face, he's a creature that literally derives its power from primordial fear of the blight. It's no sloth demon that leeches onto your weak memories you may overcome, or a Pride demon that knows exactly how to probe at you--these are things you can overcome if you have the strong will to accomplish it. But the nightmare does not rely on such comparatively 'shallow' concepts, it goes right into the heart of a universal fear (hence why fear is one of the oldest concepts) by drawing upon the fear of the blight.

 

For that reason alone he cannot be easily vanquished by conventional means. Trying to overcome the instinctive fear of the blight is much like trying to overcome the fear of touching fire--it simply can't be done. If the Nightmare must die, it would have to be done by skill and power alone--and that too would not likely work. In the real world, perhaps, but you were in the fade when you encountered the Nightmare. The rules in the fade are vastly different there than it is comparison to real world.

 

To use your 'other RPGs' comparisons, I suppose you could say the Inquisitor going up against the Nightmare would be much akin to the Hero of Kvatch going up against Mehrunes Dagon's actual form---he may be defeated, but he will only reform in his own real later.

 

But of course, this all speculation. Just like it is speculation that the Inquisitor can defeat Nightmare.

 

As you said, it's all in theory. There are quite a few good arguments around for and against it, including yours.

 

I admit, though, that I do like the idea of having the boss fight. I'd get rid of the Aspect of Nightmare we actually fight or whatever that is and go right for the spider. (Have the "Divine" help? Have the spirits of dreamers you help throughout the trip come to your aid?) I'd add more interesting combat mechanics supposed to show the Nightmare's nature - the little spiders crawling on people while stunning them were pretty interesting, they could add more stuff like that. Maybe there would be a specific way to take it down/weaken it enough to escape, e.g. something like the Ancient Rock Wraith?

 

Should the Nightmare be reborn later because fear is not something that ever goes away, I'd be perfectly okay with that. I still think it could be fun and epic to take it on while having not one, sometimes not even two, but possibly three legendary heroes and their companions cooperate. I find the idea exciting.

 

That's just me, though.

[Lezio]

As you said, it's all in theory. There are quite a few good arguments around for and against it, including yours.

 

I admit, though, that I do like the idea of having the boss fight. I'd get rid of the Aspect of Nightmare we actually fight or whatever that is and go right for the spider. (Have the "Divine" help? Have the spirits of dreamers you help throughout the trip come to your aid?) I'd add more interesting combat mechanics supposed to show the Nightmare's nature - the little spiders crawling on people while stunning them were pretty interesting, they could add more stuff like that. Maybe there would be a specific way to take it down/weaken it enough to escape, e.g. something like the Ancient Rock Wraith?

 

Should the Nightmare be reborn later because fear is not something that ever goes away, I'd be perfectly okay with that. I still think it could be fun and epic to take it on while having not one, sometimes not even two, but possibly three legendary heroes and their companions cooperate. I find the idea exciting.

 

That's just me, though.

 

Talking ingame, i would really like an option life that only IF the battle's lost than something bad happens. Like, for example, both people staying behind because you've tried and you've failed so now you have to pay for it

 

Come to think of it, there aren't really moments like this in Inquisition. Hell, can't even lose power

[Vanilka]

Talking ingame, i would really like an option life that only IF the battle's lost than something bad happens. Like, for example, both people staying behind because you've tried and you've failed so now you have to pay for it

 

Come to think of it, there aren't really moments like this in Inquisition. Hell, can't even lose power

 

I don't think you should be necessarily punished for trying. I don't see any point whatsoever in pushing failure at all costs just for the sake of having failure because it's dramatic or whatever. Especially when it has no impact in the following story and further development (which is exactly the case with the Fade decision), and it's possibly a rather pointless waste of a character with potential, just for the sake of having ten seconds of drama that came out of nowhere. It feels forced and artificial, just like the decision between Hawke and the Warden as we got it. Especially should you do well in the fight/quest. I don't like being railroaded to failing when I was obviously kicking ass the entire time before the end. It just feels cheap when that happens, just like it did with ME3 that has a big failure at some point, which is great, but it's handled in such a stupid, hamfisted manner that it's more facepalm-worthy than anything else; in DAII we promise Huon's wife we'll protect her and she dies just because Hawke arrives late for no reason whatsoever and with no explanation given, when they had the entire day to be there.

 

I'm not saying DAI couldn't benefit from more misfortune, but the execution is everything. I'd rather keep winning unlikely battles instead of losing in a stupid and forced way.

 

I'd prefer more varied outcomes. For example, you ****** off the "Divine" and the spirits in the Fade, thus none of them help you, thus you lose people. You have a big disagreement on how to handle the issue/low approval with your companions and some of them will make off without helping you while you're engaging the demon, causing somebody to die based on how you handled previous dialogues (e.g. whether you agreed Hawke/Warden is more responsible). Anything like that. I see no reason why not include the "ideal" outcome, as well. If there's variety, everybody picks what makes them happy or makes sense for their character.

[correctamundo]

It would definitely be 50/50 for me. Hmm Hawke is more alive as a character but I like my wardens as well so there it is.

[Lezio]

Yeah, i meant that IF you lose the battle than you get the really bad outcome. If you win, though, the demon's temporarily destroyed and both people get saved. It would have been a good way, in my opinion, to integrate the gameplay with the story, which is something Dragon Age (and Bioware's games in general) have lacked lately (can't remember if there were such instances in BG but i don't think so)

 

No Kai "Invicincible Shields" Leng crap

[Vanilka]

Yeah, i meant that IF you lose the battle than you get the really bad outcome. If you win, though, the demon's temporarily detroyed and both people get saved. It would have been a good way, in my opinion, to integrate the gameplay with the story, which is something Dragon Age (and Bioware's games in general) have lacked lately (can't remember if there were such instances in BG but i don't think so)

 

No Kai "Invicincible Shields" Leng crap

 

I apologise. I misunderstood entirely.

 

I agree that the gameplay should be more relevant in general. It really feels silly when you kick ass during gameplay and then are made to fail while doing something you know your character would be able to handle in gameplay.

[Endee]

I'd toss the Warden the Nightmare's way without a second thought, grab my Hawke's hand and get our butts out of there. Easiest choice ever.

[d1ta]

Hawk. Only because I didn't play DA2, bwahahahahahaaaa!!! XD

.. but then I'd feel bad for Varric, so.. I'd most certainly probably cheat and load a world state where my Warden isn't a Mahariel / Tabris (aint leaving any of my lethalan there, dalish or no) role a dude, romance no one and name him 'Void' X)

So basically I'm sending Void back into the Void

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't think you should be necessarily punished for trying. I don't see any point whatsoever in pushing failure at all costs just for the sake of having failure because it's dramatic or whatever. Especially when it has no impact in the following story and further development (which is exactly the case with the Fade decision), and it's possibly a rather pointless waste of a character with potential, just for the sake of having ten seconds of drama that came out of nowhere. It feels forced and artificial, just like the decision between Hawke and the Warden as we got it. Especially should you do well in the fight/quest. I don't like being railroaded to failing when I was obviously kicking ass the entire time before the end. It just feels cheap when that happens, just like it did with ME3 that has a big failure at some point, which is great, but it's handled in such a stupid, hamfisted manner that it's more facepalm-worthy than anything else; in DAII we promise Huon's wife we'll protect her and she dies just because Hawke arrives late for no reason whatsoever and with no explanation given, when they had the entire day to be there.

 

I'm not saying DAI couldn't benefit from more misfortune, but the execution is everything. I'd rather keep winning unlikely battles instead of losing in a stupid and forced way.

 

I'd prefer more varied outcomes. For example, you ****** off the "Divine" and the spirits in the Fade, thus none of them help you, thus you lose people. You have a big disagreement on how to handle the issue/low approval with your companions and some of them will make off without helping you while you're engaging the demon, causing somebody to die based on how you handled previous dialogues (e.g. whether you agreed Hawke/Warden is more responsible). Anything like that. I see no reason why not include the "ideal" outcome, as well. If there's variety, everybody picks what makes them happy or makes sense for their character.

I agree that there can and should be ideal options, as long as you have to earn them. That said, depending on how they're presented (and how much you have to do to earn them) the ideal option will become the normal option "chosen" by players since it's the best. So less variety. I'd still prefer they have them though.

[Vanilka]

I agree that there can and should be ideal options, as long as you have to earn them. That said, depending on how they're presented (and how much you have to do to earn them) the ideal option will become the normal option "chosen" by players since it's the best. So less variety. I'd still prefer they have them though.

 
Indeed. I don't think this needs to be done all the time, though. I think DAO's Orzammar doesn't have an ideal outcome in the two most significant quests (Branka x Caridin, Harrowmont x Bhelen) and I don't remember people complaining. I felt slightly uncomfortable choosing the Orzammar king because each came with his own disadvantages, but never have I thought we should get a third option with no catches that would let my Warden sleep at night. I knew I was losing a powerful army and sentencing Oghren's wife to death (and getting Oghren's disapproval) by helping Caridin, it was the idealistic choice, not a practical one, but never have I thought it unfair. Doing the Dark Ritual (and I romance Alistair in my favourite playthrough) feels all kinds of wrong, but never, not once, have I thought, "Hey, maybe there should be another way to survive, so we don't get any potentially dangerous demon babies and my Warden doesn't have to share her boyfriend. Or maybe my Warden should have the baby," to remove the uncomfortable parts of it. Never have I been mad with BioWare for making it so. Virmire in ME1 is one of the most iconic moments in the game, in my opinion. I found it heartbreaking and grieved a great deal. But never once have I thought that it's bullshit or that we should be able to save everyone every single time. I think that as long as it's done well, players will be willing to accept a lot. Not only that, they will be happy with it. I still think all these are great moments. It's also the exact reason why the Fade decision in DAI rubs me the wrong way. The game didn't convince me that was necessary. It's like, "POOF Sorry, there's a big bad demon in your way now, throw somebody at it, okay?"
 
Of course, some people will always go for the "ideal" where one is available. (Ask people what the "ideal" outcome for the Landsmeet is, though. I don't think everybody will agree on one. Ask people whether they think it's better to go for the mages or templars in DAI.) I think that BSN alone shows that's not always the case - some people like some misfortune with their stories, some love playing imperfect characters, some enjoy exploring all the choices (My brother has replayed ME several times with different classes and decisions because he wants to see all the content. He's nowhere near as obsessed with BW games as I am and, in fact, hasn't played any other BW game so far. He's still very likely seen more of ME than I have so far.), some people love roleplaying (I sacrificed Isolde in one of my playthroughs and sided with Branka in another. In DAI, I went for the mages with my Lavellan, whereas my Trevelyan went for the templars.), some people straight up "fail" (e.g. people who made Alistair king at the Landsmeet, then were surprised he dumped them because they hadn't hardened him; people who didn't do the DR, then were forced to watch Alistair die), some have their own morals and beliefs (e.g. people who believe the Dark Ritual is wrong, people who won't slay Flemeth because she had saved them, people who can't bring themselves to kill Loghain), etc. The ME3 survey showed that more people saved the Geth than the Quarians and it was a significant number. In fact, more people saved the Geth than those that went for the ideal outcome. (Of course, who knows how many people was the data collected from, how long, how many weren't connected to the internet at all, etc. It was relevant at the time of its release, though.)

 

I suppose that what I'm trying to say by this awful mess of a post is that I don't believe the "bad" choices get wasted, even if I admit that I do love going for the "ideal" choices myself more often than not. (To be fair, I feel my Warden, for example, works her ass off to get them.) I also don't think the "ideal" or "good" choices always need to be present as long as the "failure" is convincing. 

[Get Magna Carter]

up to me - I prefer my warden so would leave Hawke

 

up to Inky - she would probably leave Hawke - as she will be sending the other to the Wardens and it's best to send a Warden.

(though she would be tempted to leave my warden due to rising irritation)

 

up to Hawke and warden - a tough choice but it would probably be Hawke as she feels she has less to live for after all the problems in Kirkwall

[BansheeOwnage]

 
Indeed. I don't think this needs to be done all the time, though. I think DAO's Orzammar doesn't have an ideal outcome in the two most significant quests (Branka x Caridin, Harrowmont x Bhelen) and I don't remember people complaining. I felt slightly uncomfortable choosing the Orzammar king because each came with his own disadvantages, but never have I thought we should get a third option with no catches that would let my Warden sleep at night. I knew I was losing a powerful army and sentencing Oghren's wife to death (and getting Oghren's disapproval) by helping Caridin, it was the idealistic choice, not a practical one, but never have I thought it unfair. Doing the Dark Ritual (and I romance Alistair in my favourite playthrough) feels all kinds of wrong, but never, not once, have I thought, "Hey, maybe there should be another way to survive, so we don't get any potentially dangerous demon babies and my Warden doesn't have to share her boyfriend. Or maybe my Warden should have the baby," to remove the uncomfortable parts of it. Never have I been mad with BioWare for making it so. Virmire in ME1 is one of the most iconic moments in the game, in my opinion. I found it heartbreaking and grieved a great deal. But never once have I thought that it's bullshit or that we should be able to save everyone every single time. I think that as long as it's done well, players will be willing to accept a lot. Not only that, they will be happy with it. I still think all these are great moments. It's also the exact reason why the Fade decision in DAI rubs me the wrong way. The game didn't convince me that was necessary. It's like, "POOF Sorry, there's a big bad demon in your way now, throw somebody at it, okay?"
 
Of course, some people will always go for the "ideal" where one is available. (Ask people what the "ideal" outcome for the Landsmeet is, though. I don't think everybody will agree on one. Ask people whether they think it's better to go for the mages or templars in DAI.) I think that BSN alone shows that's not always the case - some people like some misfortune with their stories, some love playing imperfect characters, some enjoy exploring all the choices (My brother has replayed ME several times with different classes and decisions because he wants to see all the content. He's nowhere near as obsessed with BW games as I am and, in fact, hasn't played any other BW game so far. He's still very likely seen more of ME than I have so far.), some people love roleplaying (I sacrificed Isolde in one of my playthroughs and sided with Branka in another. In DAI, I went for the mages with my Lavellan, whereas my Trevelyan went for the templars.), some people straight up "fail" (e.g. people who made Alistair king at the Landsmeet, then were surprised he dumped them because they hadn't hardened him; people who didn't do the DR, then were forced to watch Alistair die), some have their own morals and beliefs (e.g. people who believe the Dark Ritual is wrong, people who won't slay Flemeth because she had saved them, people who can't bring themselves to kill Loghain), etc. The ME3 survey showed that more people saved the Geth than the Quarians and it was a significant number. In fact, more people saved the Geth than those that went for the ideal outcome. (Of course, who knows how many people was the data collected from, how long, how many weren't connected to the internet at all, etc. It was relevant at the time of its release, though.)

 

I suppose that what I'm trying to say by this awful mess of a post is that I don't believe the "bad" choices get wasted, even if I admit that I do love going for the "ideal" choices myself more often than not. (To be fair, I feel my Warden, for example, works her ass off to get them.) I also don't think the "ideal" or "good" choices always need to be present as long as the "failure" is convincing. 

I agree with you. I don't need there to be an ideal option all the time, I just don't like being railroaded. When they have a choice like in HLtA or Virmire, it needs to be done very carefully so it's air-tight (which was not done in this case, in my opinion).

 

I do need to comment on the Geth/Quarian stats though. It's important to note that the ideal outcome in that scenario required a lot of checks from ME2 and ME3, so it will statistically show up more and more as time passes and players do re-runs with the necessary requirements. What I'm trying to say is that yes, more playthroughs may have ended with just the geth numbers-wise, but after people figured out how it worked all but the most extreme would opt for the ideal in future playthroughs.

 

So what I'm really trying to say is that once people figure out how to get the "best" option, most will do it regardless of RP, and only a few will not. That's my guess anyway. And all this applies to more dedicated fans who bother to replay. Anyone who picked up ME3 only will be forced to pick between the two because of the default worldstate, as it were. Still, I do find it interesting that more people picked the geth than the quarians. That's kind of cool.

[Qun00]

That's why I said it would have to done with skill/power. Usually when you battle a demon in the fade, it is usually done through a battle of wills because head-on fights are not as effective. But then again, those were usually instances where the demon wanted to obtain something from you.

What about all the rage demons you kill while strutting across the Fade in DAO?

[Xerrai]

What about all the rage demons you kill while strutting across the Fade in DAO?

I assume they are of a different breed, so to speak. They are like the fearlings or the more common demons of fear that we face in the game--more common, but seemingly not as strong as some of the other, older spirits/demons. Nightmare is of the class of demons that are powerful enough to 'own' a section of the fade, and attract other demons/spirits that are compatible to it. Typically when these 'lesser' demons perish, they stay dead. Or at least they stay dead for an extended amount of time before they reform (supposedly as a new spirit).

But the Nightmare demonstrates....abilities that can imply something entirely different.

 

I'm not saying the Nightmare couldn't be defeated. But I do doubt if the Inquisitor and her/companions could do it reliably. The spirit that resembled Divine Justinia also seemingly defeated Nightmare's main form, but the Nightmare still managed to sustain an "aspect" that continued to battle the Inquisitor. But by the time this 'aspect' is defeated, the Nightmare's real form has already returned from whatever banishment the Justinia Spirit did.

 

Now to be fair, the game wasn't clear what exactly happened to Nightmare when the Justinia Spirit faced off with it. If it was indeed temporarily 'killed' or temporarily pushed to another location is up for debate. But the fact that it could face off against this Justinia Spirit that could apparently evaporate a fear demon with little thought and later return in what appears to be pristine condition does imply a certain amount of unprecedented power.

[Nixou]

I assume they are of a different breed, so to speak.

 

 

You don't have to assume: it's been part of the canon since Origins: Rage Demons are the weakest, and can be beaten by any muggle with strong willpower; Pride Demons are the strongest, and only freaks of nature like the series protagonists are capable of defeating them on a regular basis.

 

The Nightmare itself is in a league of its own, and explicitly stated to easily outmatch those formidable enough to be expected to win against pride demons.

[TK514]

Hawke walks out of the Fade every time.  The only way I can possibly imagine Hawke not coming back is if the Warden they'd have to leave behind is Carver/Bethany.

 

But the HoF?  Please.  I wouldn't even have to think twice about leaving any of my Wardens behind to become spider chow.

 

And it figures that the ONE TIME a Vengeance infested Anders might be useful, he's unavailable.

[Secret Rare]

I don't care for my warden at all simply because is an emotionless mannequin

[straykat]

Hawke walks out of the Fade every time.  The only way I can possibly imagine Hawke not coming back is if the Warden they'd have to leave behind is Carver/Bethany.

 

But the HoF?  Please.  I wouldn't even have to think twice about leaving any of my Wardens behind to become spider chow.

 

And it figures that the ONE TIME a Vengeance infested Anders might be useful, he's unavailable.

 

Hawke is badass, even dealing with the Fade. But I'd think she/he would have an even better chance if you saved Fenyriel. Who better to save their ass this time..