87 réponses à ce sujet

[Joseph Warrick]

This is a recurring topic.

I'm fond of the meters in Mass Effect like I'm fond of the light and the dark side in Star Wars. I prefer to see the meters as inprints of past actions in Shepard's personality and define her partially by that.

Others characters might like or dislike Shepard, but to me that's independent from Shepard's character. In ME3 a handful of decisions influenced your relationship with the VS, often with life and death consequences, and most of it was independent from Shepard's morality. So you can be a paragon and still pick the bottom option if your Shepard is annoyed at the VS.

Think of it as a virtue ethics approach versus a consequentialist approach.

In ME1 my Shep was renegade in general but favoured the Council over earth-centric policies. Was nice to some squadmates and sometimes harsher with others. The game allowed this.

If they come up with something new that they believe in, good. But changing this pillar of the franchise because people call them immature or because other games do other things would be a bad decision.

[Seraphim24]

I think it was a remnant from D&D BG and NWN that wasn't really part of the way Bioware made their games originally they were much more just straight direct things like MDK2 etc.

 

Currently Bioware is pretty much entirely in that vein, so, to be honest, I don't think many current fans or developers would notice if it's gone, it seems like a burden for them.

[9TailsFox]

The worst part of how Paragon and Renegade were implemented (and there were several) was how it was tied to the "I WIN" button, this creating a perverse incentive to chase Paragon or Renegade points rather than roleplaying a coherent character.

The inconsistent or unclear definitions of Paragon and Renegade were also a serious problem.

You saying like it's a bad think

 

Paragon.

 

Renegade.

[Dalinne]

Tales from Borderlands!!!

And that finale episode which reminded me so much to the Suicide Mission (choosing your team, you have those character available or not depending if you had earned their loyalty...)

[Sylvius the Mad]

I prefer the Influence mechanics that allow for greater RP freedom such as DAI and SWTOR, rather than the R/P extreme choices that have been used thus far. While these extreme choices are lessened in NG+ sessions, one should not have to get to a replay to make the best choices for a character, as opposed to the best choices to win Approval or mechanics.

I agree, though I will say that having low approval ratings can be a good thing if that suits the character you're playing.

If NG+ interferes with that, that's just another thing wrong with NG+.

[Shechinah]

I agree, though I will say that having low approval ratings can be a good thing if that suits the character you're playing.

If NG+ interferes with that, that's just another thing wrong with NG+.

 

Yeah, I'd rather not have NG+ tamper with approval ratings if they do go for a system more like the one implemented in the Dragon Age series.
 

[Elhanan]

I agree, though I will say that having low approval ratings can be a good thing if that suits the character you're playing.

If NG+ interferes with that, that's just another thing wrong with NG+.

In DAI, Approval is hidden; a feature I liked. Rather than being manipulated by some mechanical choice, as a Player this helps in choosing RP selections.

IN SWTOR, there are multiple ways to affect decisions: affection, LS/ DS, rewards, etc. So the Player can choose which is the priority for themselves rather than a single mechanic.

And like in the Orlesian ballroom quest, starting with a negative Approval can end up being more rewarding from a RP perspective, as one overcomes adversity. This is the benefit with which I agree.

But in the ME R/P mechanics, to be effective in starting gameplay, one is nudged into choosing either extreme. It isn't until NG+ games where one already has influence that the Player can make any choice freely, and avoid the either/ or scenario.

[Shechinah]

In DAI, Approval is hidden; a feature I liked. Rather than being manipulated by some mechanical choice, as a Player this helps in choosing RP selections.

 

I'd still like for there to be an optional setting where you can view the approval level in the game itself because I ran into a bothersome instance where I could not tell if I was missing a sliver of approval or if the companion in question had a bugged meter.  
 

[AlanC9]

But in the ME R/P mechanics, to be effective in starting gameplay, one is nudged into choosing either extreme. It isn't until NG+ games where one already has influence that the Player can make any choice freely, and avoid the either/ or scenario.

Well, being able to "make any choice freely" isn't a great design goal. You can't do that in DA:O, or many other games; you have to throw points into the appropriate skills, perks, or whatever first. The ME2 problem is that the options are tied to previous unrelated decisions rather than a character's abilities.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But in the ME R/P mechanics, to be effective in starting gameplay, one is nudged into choosing either extreme. It isn't until NG+ games where one already has influence that the Player can make any choice freely, and avoid the either/ or scenario.

Because of that perverse incentive, the ME games benefit tremendously from the use of a savegame editor to max out your Paragon and Renegade points.

[FirstBlood XL]

It's not PC to judge and label someone's life choices... if Bioware was truly a progressive thinking company, they would rid us of such judgemental nonsense.

 

[Joseph Warrick]

I still don't know why your companions' opinions should matter in a system whose goal is to define your image in the galaxy. Are you a paragon of justice or a renegade warrior? Captain America or the Punisher? Companion approval is a different topic.

It might be cool if other characters reacted to this more. Strangers trust Superman implicitly but they are wary around Dirty Harry despite knowing rationally that he's also the good guy. And it's because of his reputation, things he has done, not because his companion dislikes him.

[Elhanan]

I'd still like for there to be an optional setting where you can view the approval level in the game itself because I ran into a bothersome instance where I could not tell if I was missing a sliver of approval or if the companion in question had a bugged meter.

I do prefer multiple options; another part of DAI that I like.

[Valhallix]

The weirdest example to me of paragon/renegade is in ME3 when you are given a renegade option to shoot Udina whom you know to be aligned with Cerberus, has just shoved the Asari councilor, and is holding a gun and appears about to shoot her. And somehow this would be a renegade interrupt instead of a paragon one. It makes no sense. As if it is a renegade act to shoot someone purely in defense of yourself or someone else.

 

A  problem with doing any morality system is that the writers will structure issues in terms of their own morality and their own understanding of the practical effects of decisions. It is somewhat immersion breaking when I don't agree with those assumptions. Then I have to decide between making my blue bar taller or making my red one taller, even though I do not understand how my choice can be construed as a renegade one.

 

In ME3 the Paragon/Renegade system wasn't good or evil. It was more like passive or agressive.

 

For example the scene with Udina you can talk down Kaidan with Renegade just as you can Paragon if it's high enough. Renegade isn't evil in 3, it's the blunt option.

 

And the ballroom in DAI was only one part of the game. Nothing like that happened mechnically the rest of the game. It would have been a better game if it did. I actually dislike the way DAI handled dialogue in some ways. You missed out on some dialogue had you chosen to purchase a necessary upgrade over the ones that gave you "secret" dialogue. That shouldn't be hidden like that imo. Hopefully they don't do that in Andromeda and bring it back in the skill tree.

[Draining Dragon]

The Paragon and Renegade system is a perfectly fine concept. Bioware just needs to stop conflating morality with reputation. Paragon is supposed to be your reputation as a hero, while Renegade is supposed to be your reputation as a badass. That's the impression I got, at least.

[Commander Rpg]

The concept of "reputation as a gentleman" and "reputation as a brute" doesn't hold water, when it comes to actions that take form of heroic deeds or meekness in the first case, and moral crimes or mere nastiness in the second. Frankly said, I've never seen a paragon action evolving into vileness nor a renegade action turning into a deed that was good in the intent, in the execution and in final results.

They chose the mixed bag, which means: urine, crap, vomit, semen, snot etc.

[Arcian]

Moral inflexibility isn't reasonable in the real world, so why should it be in Mass Effect?

[Elhanan]

In ME3 the Paragon/Renegade system wasn't good or evil. It was more like passive or agressive.
 
For example the scene with Udina you can talk down Kaidan with Renegade just as you can Paragon if it's high enough. Renegade isn't evil in 3, it's the blunt option.
 
And the ballroom in DAI was only one part of the game. Nothing like that happened mechnically the rest of the game. It would have been a better game if it did. I actually dislike the way DAI handled dialogue in some ways. You missed out on some dialogue had you chosen to purchase a necessary upgrade over the ones that gave you "secret" dialogue. That shouldn't be hidden like that imo. Hopefully they don't do that in Andromeda and bring it back in the skill tree.

Every judgment made from the Throne affected Approval, as did many conversations. While the effects were known, the totals were not. Thus, if one wanted to insure Cole stayed, but could not care if someone else departed, the Player could prioritize his reactions, but his total Approval remained hidden. This promotes RP; not simply gifting a follower into obedience.

[mopotter]

The Paragon and Renegade system is a perfectly fine concept. Bioware just needs to stop conflating morality with reputation. Paragon is supposed to be your reputation as a hero, while Renegade is supposed to be your reputation as a badass. That's the impression I got, at least.

Yeah,  I never thought Renegade was evil.  I thought of it as being focused on the result,- the end justifying the means - sort of thing.   Since I don't believe this,I didn't use the renegade option often, but I liked having it.  I also hope they have a neutral option.  I don't care if I can see the red and blue labels but I do want a number of choices for my decisions.

[ZipZap2000]

Not sure how I got here but I blame the mobile version.

Deleted: Wrong thread.

[AlanC9]

I actually dislike the way DAI handled dialogue in some ways. You missed out on some dialogue had you chosen to purchase a necessary upgrade over the ones that gave you "secret" dialogue. That shouldn't be hidden like that imo. Hopefully they don't do that in Andromeda and bring it back in the skill tree.

I agree that such dialogues shouldn't be hidden. Dialogue mechanics should be transparent to the player. The ME series got this right since options always appear even if they're greyed-out because you don't have the points for them.

But I don't see any problem with having the the same points used for both combat and non-combat upgrades.

[Swaggerjking]

I really don't know or care but if they do have any kind of system along those lines or have companion approval system just show me where I am at long it I don't care if it haves numbers. I if it is gamey I don't care because it is a game after all

[Sylvius the Mad]

In ME3 the Paragon/Renegade system wasn't good or evil. It was more like passive or agressive.

Which is entirely unlike how it works in ME2. Just try to be civil toward TIM at the beginning of ME2. The Paragon options certainly don't do that.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I think the paragon/renegade system is archaic and needs to go. I feel there should be no reason why my character has to act like a saint or a sinner the entire game to get access to all the dialog options. Moral or ethical choices would be much more difficult and have much more impact if all options are available.

[Halfdan The Menace]

If I had a paragon meter, it would broke.