68 réponses à ce sujet

[publius1000]

i'm confused as to how you guys think video game storytelling is not on par with other media. books i get, ok the Dune and Ender's Game universes are definitely better than ME, but movies? i would say the mass effect universe is leagues ahead of any movie i've ever seen, including star wars. same for the assassin's creed universe. i can't recall the last time i watched a movie where i actually gave the slightest of fucks about the story.. maybe inception? - i don't even think it's possible to tell a good story in 2hrs. can't really speak for tv because the only show i watch is supernatural, and that's more out of stockholm syndrome than any actual interest at this point, but i'd guess that tv is about on par with games.

[Laughing_Man]

i'm confused as to how you guys think video game storytelling is not on par with other media. books i get, ok the Dune and Ender's Game universes are definitely better than ME, but movies? i would say the mass effect universe is leagues ahead of any movie i've ever seen, including star wars. same for the assassin's creed universe. i can't recall the last time i watched a movie where i actually gave the slightest of fucks about the story.. maybe inception? - i don't even think it's possible to tell a good story in 2hrs. can't really speak for tv because the only show i watch is supernatural, and that's more out of stockholm syndrome than any actual interest at this point, but i'd guess that tv is about on par with games.

 

I think my brain just had to do an emergency reboot. The Assassin's Creed franchise is supposedly considered a masterpiece which is "better than many movies"?

 

I mean, there are a lot of crappy movies out there, but still, something with a plot as convoluted confusing and pointless as AC is hardly in a position to be used as an example for good writing or storytelling.

[Lady Artifice]

i'm confused as to how you guys think video game storytelling is not on par with other media. books i get, ok the Dune and Ender's Game universes are definitely better than ME, but movies? i would say the mass effect universe is leagues ahead of any movie i've ever seen, including star wars. same for the assassin's creed universe. i can't recall the last time i watched a movie where i actually gave the slightest of fucks about the story.. maybe inception? - i don't even think it's possible to tell a good story in 2hrs. can't really speak for tv because the only show i watch is supernatural, and that's more out of stockholm syndrome than any actual interest at this point, but i'd guess that tv is about on par with games.

 

I'm torn, because film studies is my minor, and insults to the medium both confuse and vex me.

 

But I also feel that people can be really over hasty to dismiss video games as "not art" or "not real storytelling," just because it's generally a little more shallow and less story centered.

 

I mean, even if the argument is that it's bad, it wouldn't make it not art. It would just make it bad art.

[Quarian Master Race]

I'm torn, because film studies is my minor, and insults to the medium both confuse and vex me.

 

But I also feel that people can be really over hasty to dismiss video games as "not art" or "not real storytelling," just because it's generally a little more shallow and less story centered.

 

I mean, even if the argument is that it's bad, it wouldn't make it not art. It would just make it bad art.

I think the problem is that games are a fairly new cultural medium as far as being an art form goes. Ask the layperson about video games and they'll probably mention something like Call of Duty, for instance. Films often weren't considered art in their early decades either. There hasn't really been a Citizen Kane moment that showcases what the medium is capable of in terms of dramatic storytelling (or at least we haven't retrospectively identified one as such yet), and if I had to pick I'd say that Heavy Rain and The Last of Us get closest to something I'd personally consider good art.

However, that doesn't mean games are inherently bad or worse than those mediums. For instance, the ME series is derided for multiple writing failures, and I agree with most of them, but you can pick apart most films and novels in the same way. We only remember the classics, not the countless, mindless popcorn action flicks, direct to DVD schlock or dime store novels that comprise the vast majority of the material ever written in those mediums (and that are often created for a different purpose than art, anyway).

[publius1000]

I think my brain just had to do an emergency reboot. The Assassin's Creed franchise is supposedly considered a masterpiece which is "better than many movies"?

 

I mean, there are a lot of crappy movies out there, but still, something with a plot as convoluted confusing and pointless as AC is hardly in a position to be used as an example for good writing or storytelling.

i mean i'll give you that at 3 they basically ran out of ideas, but 1 and 2 (by 2 i mean the whole ezio trilogy) had some of the best conspiracy theories and world-building i've seen. maybe i just love conspiracy theories - not to believe in them mind you, i'm just fascinated by the crazy **** people can come up with.

 

I'm torn, because film studies is my minor, and insults to the medium both confuse and vex me.

 

But I also feel that people can be really over hasty to dismiss video games as "not art" or "not real storytelling," just because it's generally a little more shallow and less story centered.

 

I mean, even if the argument is that it's bad, it wouldn't make it not art. It would just make it bad art.

i mean i'm sure there are movies with good stories, but the fact that i can't remember any shows (at least to me) that they weren't as impactful as games and books.

[Spectr61]

The Witcher 3 isn't without it's problems either though and suffers from an industry wide problem, one I really hope with the pushing back of the release date, Andromeda can avoid. That problem is basically developers biting off more than they can chew in the development time available to them. The Witcher 3 has unarguably the best writing during the first act of any video game ever released but it's widely regarded amongst its community that after that act, the writing simply falls off a cliff, with several characters being under developed.
 
Similarly ME3's ending smacked of Bioware simply running out of development time and rushing a half finished product out the door. Characters like Kai Leng where so underdeveloped that he in particular looked like he came straight out of a child's cartoon show. Hopefully it's a mistake they won't repeat with this game.

This.

Search for ME3 cuts, and the indications are that much indeed was cut. There are also threads here that go into detail. Entire Priority missions, Cereberus missions, the sequence leading up to Priority Earth, etc.

My guess is that corporate and/or deadline pressure led to the end product, with its mentioned underdeveloped characters and of course the infamous endings.

The writers and developers get much criticism for this, and rightly so; but I wonder how much was them being told to "shut up and color", and get a product out the door.

"Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good" is all fine and dandy for a corporation looking at the bottom line and efficiency, but damm, at least start with Good.

My hope is that this won't be repeated with Andromeda, and optimistically the delays may be evidence of this lesson being learnt.

[Heathen Oxman]

I think the problem is that games are a fairly new cultural medium as far as being an art form goes. Ask the layperson about video games and they'll probably mention something like Call of Duty, for instance. Films often weren't considered art in their early decades either. There hasn't really been a Citizen Kane moment that showcases what the medium is capable of in terms of dramatic storytelling (or at least we haven't retrospectively identified one as such yet), and if I had to pick I'd say that Heavy Rain and The Last of Us get closest to something I'd personally consider good art.

However, that doesn't mean games are inherently bad or worse than those mediums. For instance, the ME series is derided for multiple writing failures, and I agree with most of them, but you can pick apart most films and novels in the same way. We only remember the classics, not the countless, mindless popcorn action flicks, direct to DVD schlock or dime store novels that comprise the vast majority of the material ever written in those mediums (and that are often created for a different purpose than art, anyway).

 

*high five*

 

Heck, even novels weren't considered "art" when they first appeared (they were just nonsense that women read).

 

The newness of video games, and their reputation as being "for kids" is probably going to inhibit their recognition as a serious medium for a spell of time.  I liken it to the comparison of animation between Japan and the U.S.  In the U.S., animation is still largely considered a "kid thing," while, in Japan, they've accepted animation as something adults can enjoy.

 

Also, games have to consider making compelling GAMEPLAY, which isn't something movies/novels/TV has to consider.  A game can have an awesome story, but if is boring as poop, it doesn't matter.

[publius1000]

*high five*

 

Heck, even novels weren't considered "art" when they first appeared (they were just nonsense that women read).

maybe this is true of the recent post-renaissance novels, but it was definitely not true in ancient greece/rome.

 

The newness of video games, and their reputation as being "for kids" is probably going to inhibit their recognition as a serious medium for a spell of time.  I liken it to the comparison of animation between Japan and the U.S.  In the U.S., animation is still largely considered a "kid thing," while, in Japan, they've accepted animation as something adults can enjoy.

 

Also, games have to consider making compelling GAMEPLAY, which isn't something movies/novels/TV has to consider.  A game can have an awesome story, but if is boring as poop, it doesn't matter.

i get that this is true, but i'm surprised to see that sentiment on this forum, of all places.

 

also i hate this distinction people make of what is 'art' and 'not art'. like as long as you enjoy it, who cares what it is? i enjoy games for story and/or gameplay, movies for any combination of good acting, comedy, or just plain mindless action with high-quality effects and **** blowing up, and books for.. i guess story again. idk, that's just something that pisses me off a lot - people telling me "no, you're wrong, you're not actually having fun, here is what's actually fun/art/educational/whatever." (not accusing anyone here of that, just a general observation)

[Sanunes]

This.

Search for ME3 cuts, and the indications are that much indeed was cut. There are also threads here that go into detail. Entire Priority missions, Cereberus missions, the sequence leading up to Priority Earth, etc.

My guess is that corporate and/or deadline pressure led to the end product, with its mentioned underdeveloped characters and of course the infamous endings.

The writers and developers get much criticism for this, and rightly so; but I wonder how much was them being told to "shut up and color", and get a product out the door.

"Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good" is all fine and dandy for a corporation looking at the bottom line and efficiency, but damm, at least start with Good.

My hope is that this won't be repeated with Andromeda, and optimistically the delays may be evidence of this lesson being learnt.

 

Considering that there has always been content cut from a game near the end of development I doubt that there is a lesson to be learned.  It really depends on what type of lesson you want them to learn, if putting more effort in last minute changes I can get behind that.  If you mean that they shouldn't cut content I am highly skeptical that would happen.

Modifié par Sanunes, 18 avril 2016 - 04:17 .

[AlanC9]

This.
Search for ME3 cuts, and the indications are that much indeed was cut. There are also threads here that go into detail. Entire Priority missions, Cereberus missions, the sequence leading up to Priority Earth, etc.

Well, most of that stuff never got past outline form. Bio's always written up more content than makes it into the games. KotOR had a whole planet cut, for instance. The trick is to manage the development process sensibly so the cuts don't show; otherwise you end up with KotOR 2.

My guess is that corporate and/or deadline pressure led to the end product, with its mentioned underdeveloped characters and of course the infamous endings.
The writers and developers get much criticism for this, and rightly so; but I wonder how much was them being told to "shut up and color", and get a product out the door.
"Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good" is all fine and dandy for a corporation looking at the bottom line and efficiency, but damm, at least start with Good.
My hope is that this won't be repeated with Andromeda, and optimistically the delays may be evidence of this lesson being learnt.

But it's the writers' job to come up with a plan that can be executed with the available resources. Not enough money? Not enough time? Well, then you should have written a game that you could make.

[Seraphim24]

I think the problem is that games are a fairly new cultural medium as far as being an art form goes. Ask the layperson about video games and they'll probably mention something like Call of Duty, for instance. Films often weren't considered art in their early decades either. There hasn't really been a Citizen Kane moment that showcases what the medium is capable of in terms of dramatic storytelling (or at least we haven't retrospectively identified one as such yet), and if I had to pick I'd say that Heavy Rain and The Last of Us get closest to something I'd personally consider good art.

However, that doesn't mean games are inherently bad or worse than those mediums. For instance, the ME series is derided for multiple writing failures, and I agree with most of them, but you can pick apart most films and novels in the same way. We only remember the classics, not the countless, mindless popcorn action flicks, direct to DVD schlock or dime store novels that comprise the vast majority of the material ever written in those mediums (and that are often created for a different purpose than art, anyway).

 

I really never understand this argument. Citizen Kane to be was one of the most boring movies I tried to watch. It's almost like "Video games can be boring, just like movies once became!" I fell asleep like 5 times trying to watch it.

 

The fact is Bioware game sell a pretty smack ton and everything I've seen regarding Andromeda or other things suggests that trend will continue. Yes, they've had struggles in the past with all kinds of things, but honestly I think people are just going to have put the money where the mouth is here, if you don't like the "writing" or the "endings" or whatever you can A) Buy different games or consume different media or whatever or B ) Deal some way.

 

Personally never really had those problems myself, already being somewhat divorced from those worlds myself. If you ask me the highpoint of Hollywood was the 30s/40s/50s where they had problems this and/or that but created massive compelling spectacles, as well as Disney era (which I'm sorry but the 90s Renn mostly didn't capture outside of a small group)

[Prince Enigmatic]

I'm also surprised by some of the criticism of storytelling in films. I'd be interested to know what films are being used as a basis for this, cause if it is a lot of today's big budget blockbusters, then I'd agree.

Then do people really go to see a Marvel film for the story? I think superhero films in general are weak in the storytelling aspect, and with each new release, the reliance on established clichés, formula and archetypes begin to show.
But there are plenty of films that tell good stories, I think the issue is these days is that it's becoming more and more difficult to come up with something original and not derivative.

A good example of something that isn't wholly original, but depicts a refreshing take on an overused scenario, is The Last Of Us (I know this is a videogame, and not a film, but I think TLOU is a good example).

It has the typical 'outbreak' scenario/opening, and the Infected encountered in the game are clearly based in part on the familiarity of zombies, which have been experiencing a popular resurgence. But instead of the usual undead, it takes an actual fungi based infection and applies it to humans instead of insects, and while it may not seem like much, I think it works in making The Last Of Us's premise seem like a neat spin on the zombie outbreak formula. I mean as far as I know, I haven't seen any criticisms of TLOU as being a blatant ripoff. Also the focus of the story, Joel and Ellie, and not so much the infection and outbreak etc, also helps make the story it tells seem new or at least refreshing. The road trip aspect has been done a lot too.

Films at the moment seem to he dipping into past popular franchises and bringing them back to life so to speak, and financially it is paying off (Jurassic World, Star Wars 7, hell now there's going to be Indy 5).

Storytelling in films atm does seem to have stagnated somewhat especially in regard to blockbusters.
The mention of Inception is a good example of something entirely original (as far as I know) its just a tad sad to think that the only reason Inception got greenlit was because of Nolan's success with his Batman films.

[Addictress]

I think my brain just had to do an emergency reboot. The Assassin's Creed franchise is supposedly considered a masterpiece which is "better than many movies"?

 

I mean, there are a lot of crappy movies out there, but still, something with a plot as convoluted confusing and pointless as AC is hardly in a position to be used as an example for good writing or storytelling.

I agree that any Bioware game is leagues ahead of any movie I've ever seen storytelling-wise, but Assassin's Creed doesn't really have that much story, I agree. People may be confusing 'complexity of environments' and 'scale of mis-en-scene' with storytelling.

[Prince Enigmatic]

I agree that any Bioware game is leagues ahead of any movie I've ever seen storytelling-wise, but Assassin's Creed doesn't really have that much story, I agree. People may be confusing 'complexity of environments' and 'scale of mis-en-scene' with storytelling.

 

I've mentioned this in another thread, but to me Assassin's Creed just takes an already established historical setting (abound with anachronisms) along with real life historical figures and events, and usually just shoehorns in a revenge driven assassin alongside convoluted Roman gods and Biblical nonsense, oh and the Assassins: Chaos and Templars: Order neverending, exhausted, ongoing conflict.

 

I like the Assassin's Creed games for their settings, not their stories or particularly their characters. Lately though the gameplay has been negating any positive aspect their settings provide.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The Witcher 3 isn't without it's problems either though and suffers from an industry wide problem, one I really hope with the pushing back of the release date, Andromeda can avoid. That problem is basically developers biting off more than they can chew in the development time available to them. The Witcher 3 has unarguably the best writing during the first act of any video game ever released but it's widely regarded amongst its community that after that act, the writing simply falls off a cliff, with several characters being under developed.

 

Similarly ME3's ending smacked of Bioware simply running out of development time and rushing a half finished product out the door. Characters like Kai Leng where so underdeveloped that he in particular looked like he came straight out of a child's cartoon show. Hopefully it's a mistake they won't repeat with this game.

 

I noticed that too. Everything in Velen surrounding the Baron was awesome. After that however, save for the great stint in Kaer Morhen, the game's writing never impressed me. In some cases (like with the handling of Eredin, Radovid and the Witcher Hunters), I was decidedly less than impressed even.

 

I'd like if Andromeda could tell a better main story than any game in the OT. ME1 was decent but the beginning is just cringe-indulcingly stupid (sure, Anderson, the Council is going to jettison their top agent because Shepard had a bad dream...), ME2's main plot was mostly an excuse to get the squad together and did not advance the Reaper arc one iota, and ME3's plot has well-known faults, such as the terrible writing on the first mission, the Crucible pulled out of nowhere, Cerberus the Sith Empire, and the endings. 

 

Companions being well written is old news for Bioware now. It's what they do. I'd like them to have a gripping main plot from start to finish, with a really cool villain. They still haven't managed to top Jade Empire in this regard. 

[Seraphim24]

Well as someone who cares about the "game" as much as everything else whatever problems people had with TW3 going forward my experience with the game itself improving. The prologue felt like a very awkward experiment in Skyrim, before Novigrad kind of got the ball rolling with more variety in  quests, quest options, directional elements, diversity in the combat, etc, and then culminating with Kaer Morhen.

 

I mean you can look at games and say they don't have a Citizen Kane or whatever or you can look at games and say some feel like pretty good "movies" but haven't really reached that "Super Mario" level of just being a really addicting  video game.

[ModernAcademic]

I reset my brand attachments to BioWare when the executives left and have no real expectations towards ME:A (this also means I have no real anxieties or dread about the game.

 

This. 

 

Even most part of the creative writers have left the company.

[publius1000]

I'm also surprised by some of the criticism of storytelling in films. I'd be interested to know what films are being used as a basis for this, cause if it is a lot of today's big budget blockbusters, then I'd agree.

Then do people really go to see a Marvel film for the story? I think superhero films in general are weak in the storytelling aspect, and with each new release, the reliance on established clichés, formula and archetypes begin to show.
But there are plenty of films that tell good stories, I think the issue is these days is that it's becoming more and more difficult to come up with something original and not derivative.

Right, I don't watch very many films, so I'm basing that off the recent ones I have seen - which are mainly mindless action movies a la James Bond. Which isn't to say I don't enjoy them, I just don't care about the story. Haven't seen any superhero films beside Nolan's Batman trilogy.

 

I think for me it's mainly an issue of length - there's no way I can get as emotionally invested in 2 hours of movie as I can in hundreds of hours of gameplay or tens of hours of reading. Or another way - the main attribute of a good story is that it keeps you interested and dying to find out what happens next. With a book - or any longer-format medium - you can pace it out, have exposition, world-building, character development, plot twists, etc., all while progressing the story and keeping the reader interested. With a movie you have to cram all that into 90 min - so you get maybe 5 min of exposition/backstory, and then like maybe one plot twist. Even if you do get invested, the payoff happens almost immediately, and then what?

 

That said, feel free to mention a movie you think has a particularly good story - I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong about this and just can't remember any movies.

[correctamundo]

Fiddler on the roof.