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Just read "Stolen Throne"....


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#1
Deadly dwarf

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In keeping with my tendency to do everything backwards, I've begun reading Dragon Age books after having first done the games.  (And even there, I started with Inquisition and worked my way back!)

 

Anyhow, I found it a good read!  David Gaider is a fine writer.  This book fills in quite a bit of the backstory on the characters you run into in Origins.  You can get much of this backstory via the game's codex entries, but there's more of an emotional reaction or commitment when you read it in a nice coherent narative. 

 

First and foremost, you get a feel for the nasty rivalry between Fereldan and Orlay and why Fereldans of Loghain's generation might continue to loathe and distrust the Orlesians.  You also get to see the strong bond of friendship between Maric and Loghain and how that relationship came to be.  You also get to see the torrid love triangles both were involved in.

 

As to how this knowledge impacts my views of Loghain and how things play out in Origins, surprisingly not much has changed.  When I think of Loghain's failure to attack the Darkspawn at Ostagar after Alistair and the PC light the tower signal, I now think of how Rowan, in that first desperate battle, went to save Loghain  and his knights as they battled a superior Orlesian force on a hill with no way to escape.  In the end, Rowan could only save Loghain and a handful of his men, but saving Loghain was her primary purpose.  Years later, Loghain fails to do the same for Rowan's son.  For me (and perhaps others), one of the things that will remain a source of controversy is Loghain's claim that he didn't charge at Ostagar because he could already see that the King and his army were already lost.  If that were the case, then why would it be necessary for Wardens in the Tower to relay Duncan's signal to Loghain?  To me, the only way the original battle plan makes any sense is if  Loghain's force is kept far enough away from the king's army that the Darkspawn cannot see them. (Logically, the Darkspawn would be reluctant to charge Cailan's forces if they could see Loghain's army was in a position to flank them.)  Only then would you need a high point like a tower to relay a signal.  Regardless, there is treachery by Loghain at Ostagar IMHO.

 

As to the subplot regarding Katriel, I can understand why Loghain does what he does, but I still feel it was wrong for him to manipulate Maric in a way that likely gnawed at his conscience.  (I've begun to read "The Calling" and remember it being mentioned that Flemeth told Maric that Loghain would betray him.  Was this a reference to what he does with regard to Katriel?  Or to his son at Ostagar?)

 

In any case, in a future Origins play through, I would like to save Loghain and take him to Ostagar to hear his side of the story.

 

Other noteworthy things from "Stolen Throne":  seeing mage Wilhelm and the golem that would ultimately be known as Shale.  This, of course, leaves some questions regarding golems and those with control rods.  Did Wilhelm ever actually talk to Shale?  Was he aware that Shale, despite being made of stone, was sentient being?  Or does the control rod, so long as it is functional, make the golem a silent remote control robot?  You run into golems elsewhere in the games, but none that are like Shale.  Most are unthinking monsters or -- rather weirdly -- merchants in DA2.  (I haven't played through Descent yet, so have no idea if they make an appearance in Inquisition.)

 

I'm now working on "The Calling" and getting to know young Duncan and Fiona.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#2
MouseHopper

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I have never once considered reading any of these books.  You have now made me reconsider completely.  What a wonderful review.  I love to read, but have never felt compelled to read about a game I've already played.  I felt as though I'd used my own imagination to create the stories myself.  However, you  have now shown me the error of my ways.  I shall look into reading some of these back stories, as you have made them sound not only interesting, but almost essential to my knowledge of the actual game.  Thank you so much for this.


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#3
robertmarilyn

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I read all the books, after I played the games and I think I enjoyed them more doing that, than if I read the books first. MouseHopper, you should read the books...I hope more are written in the future. 


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#4
Qun00

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Ferelden. Orlais.
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#5
Ghost Gal

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I couldn't get past the first few pages. David Gaider is a good video game writer, but he's really not a very good narrative writer. 

 

But I have read read extensive plot and reader response overviews, and it really fails to impress me. His lying about Katriel, and Flemeth's warning to Maric that "he'll betray you, each time worse than the last" did away with whatever good opinion I had of his original character in the game proper. In the game, everyone talks about how what an honest, noble, honorable, stalwart, upstanding guy he had been all his life up to his betrayal at Ostagar, which almost led me to believe that his paranoia regarding Orlais led to this completely uncharacteristic laps in character. The Stolen Throne reveals that, nope, he was a lying, back-stabbing snake in the grass long before Ostagar.

 

Also, the plight he suffered under Orlais is nothing new to me--I figured as much based on what he said in the game proper. It just makes me that much more disgusted with his hypocrisy regarding elves. Apparently "slavery" is an unforgivable travesty when it happens to him and his, but it's completely fine when it happens to elves, because they're just elves. What do they need freedom for? He tries to justify all his countless war crimes on the excuse that he's trying to maintain Ferelden's independence, but then sells Ferelden citizens into slavery to fill his own coffers. So much for his precious Night Elves. Why arm your elven citizens to help maintain Ferelden's independence when you can just sell them to arm your real soldiers? Human freedom is not negotiable--he'd sooner have them die by darkspawn than even risk them living under occupation again. Elven freedom? Sold to the highest bidder! All in the name of saving the whose freedom is worth preserving, of course.

 

Loghain still rots in my worldstate.


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#6
Qun00

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I couldn't get past the first few pages. David Gaider is a good video game writer, but he's really not a very good narrative writer.

But I have read read extensive plot and reader response overviews, and it really fails to impress me. His lying about Katriel, and Flemeth's warning to Maric that "he'll betray you, each time worse than the last" did away with whatever good opinion I had of his original character in the game proper. In the game, everyone talks about how what an honest, noble, honorable, stalwart, upstanding guy he had been all his life up to his betrayal at Ostagar, which almost led me to believe that his paranoia regarding Orlais led to this completely uncharacteristic laps in character. The Stolen Throne reveals that, nope, he was a lying, back-stabbing snake in the grass long before Ostagar.

Also, the plight he suffered under Orlais is nothing new to me--I figured as much based on what he said in the game proper. It just makes me that much more disgusted with his hypocrisy regarding elves. Apparently "slavery" is an unforgivable travesty when it happens to him and his, but it's completely fine when it happens to elves, because they're just elves. What do they need freedom for? He tries to justify all his countless war crimes on the excuse that he's trying to maintain Ferelden's independence, but then sells Ferelden citizens into slavery to fill his own coffers. So much for his precious Night Elves. Why arm your elven citizens to help maintain Ferelden's independence when you can just sell them to arm your real soldiers? Human freedom is not negotiable--he'd sooner have them die by darkspawn than even risk them living under occupation again. Elven freedom? Sold to the highest bidder! All in the name of saving the whose freedom is worth preserving, of course.

Loghain still rots in my worldstate.


Loghain uses the argument of pragmatism and speaks of the benefits of selling them to slavery when you question him about it.

Funny how the value of freedom is relative and negotiable when it isn't your people's.
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#7
TagiDoll

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I didn't read your post for fear of spoilers, but I recently replayed Origins for the second time and this time spared Loghain  -  he has become one of my favourite characters. So I recently bought Stolen Throne and I'll read it as soon as it's delivered.

 

Hope it's good ;)

 

The only other paper story that was complimentary to a game I have bought was Mass Effect Homeworlds. Still haven't read that actually.



#8
Deadly dwarf

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I have never once considered reading any of these books.  You have now made me reconsider completely.  What a wonderful review.  I love to read, but have never felt compelled to read about a game I've already played.  I felt as though I'd used my own imagination to create the stories myself.  However, you  have now shown me the error of my ways.  I shall look into reading some of these back stories, as you have made them sound not only interesting, but almost essential to my knowledge of the actual game.  Thank you so much for this.

 

I hope you're not disappointed!  Not everyone likes the books, but I had no problem with it.  Gaider may not be Tolkien, but I certainly found him readable.  (Note, I wasn't an English major.  In high school, I hated "Moby Dick" but liked "Huck Finn.")  In any case, I think "Stolen Throne" does help round out the character of Loghain.  It helps you understand the "Ferelden versus Orlais" dynamic better.  Flemeth is also introduced.

 

Ferelden. Orlais.

 

Doh!  Now for natives of Ferelden, they would be "Fereldans" correct?

 

I couldn't get past the first few pages. David Gaider is a good video game writer, but he's really not a very good narrative writer. 

 

But I have read read extensive plot and reader response overviews, and it really fails to impress me. His lying about Katriel, and Flemeth's warning to Maric that "he'll betray you, each time worse than the last" did away with whatever good opinion I had of his original character in the game proper. In the game, everyone talks about how what an honest, noble, honorable, stalwart, upstanding guy he had been all his life up to his betrayal at Ostagar, which almost led me to believe that his paranoia regarding Orlais led to this completely uncharacteristic laps in character. The Stolen Throne reveals that, nope, he was a lying, back-stabbing snake in the grass long before Ostagar.

 

Also, the plight he suffered under Orlais is nothing new to me--I figured as much based on what he said in the game proper. It just makes me that much more disgusted with his hypocrisy regarding elves. Apparently "slavery" is an unforgivable travesty when it happens to him and his, but it's completely fine when it happens to elves, because they're just elves. What do they need freedom for? He tries to justify all his countless war crimes on the excuse that he's trying to maintain Ferelden's independence, but then sells Ferelden citizens into slavery to fill his own coffers. So much for his precious Night Elves. Why arm your elven citizens to help maintain Ferelden's independence when you can just sell them to arm your real soldiers? Human freedom is not negotiable--he'd sooner have them die by darkspawn than even risk them living under occupation again. Elven freedom? Sold to the highest bidder! All in the name of saving the whose freedom is worth preserving, of course.

 

Loghain still rots in my worldstate.

 

If you have the book or e-book, I'd still give it another try.  The way book starts off may be jarring, but once you're through with the first two chapters, it's a better read - I think.  I mentioned that I wasn't an English major, but I did major in History.  For me, Maric's tale reminds me of the historical sagas of Charles II and Bonnie Prince Charlie as they tried to regain the English throne. 

 

All your criticisms of Loghain are appreciated; I, myself, still think of him as a villain overall.  The great thing about Dragon Age is that many of the characters they create are complex and three-dimensional.  Loghain has fans as well as those who hate him.  The same divide exist for just about every other important character in DA.  In Stolen Throne, you do come away feeling Loghain is a flawed individual, but you also come away feeling that he was absolutely indispensable to freeing Ferelden from Orlais.  As to all the nasty things he does in Origins, the irony is that the man who would again exile the Grey Wardens from Ferelden is embracing the "do anything to win" attitude of the Grey Wardens.  I'd go so far as to say the big moral question posed throughout Origins is "Do the ends justify the means?"  In Origins, Loghain is absolutely wrong given that Grey Wardens are necessary to kill the Archdemon, something he doesn't know thanks to the secretiveness of the Wardens.  In his mind, Cailan was a fool.  With Cailan gone and heirless, he tries to unite the kingdom as quickly as possible under his daughter (who he puts on house arrest) so that Ferelden can be strong enough to face the Blight alone.  It's not an inherently evil objective, but it is ultimately corrupted because he makes too many deals with too many devils.  (More than a little Shakespearean I think!)


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#9
MouseHopper

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Deadly Dwarf, again you have really captured my interest.  Your mention of the historical references and the comparisons to Charles II,etc. have peaked my interest even further.  Thank you again.



#10
Qun00

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Maybe it is Duncan's manly appearance that misleads me, but I'd always thought he was a warrior in DAO.

And yet, he is a thief aka rogue in The Stolen Throne.

#11
robertmarilyn

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Maybe it is Duncan's manly appearance that misleads me, but I'd always thought he was a warrior in DAO.

And yet, he is a thief aka rogue in The Stolen Throne.

 

Was Duncan in the Stolen Throne? I think he was just in The Calling. Meeting him in The Calling was one of my favorite things about that book although I find it kind of hard to match young Duncan with the Duncan we see in the game.



#12
Qun00

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Oh, right. That one. Still... which is it? Is Duncan a rogue or a warrior in DAO?
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#13
SgtSteel91

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An important thing I took away from Stolen Throne is this:

 

"Loghain, if you hadn't come after me, you might have made a difference in that battle. At the very least, you might have gotten more of them out alive."

 

Loghain did not meet Maric's stare, instead frowning into his steeled hands. He said nothing.

 

Maric sighed deeply and shook his head, his anger evaporating. "You both saved me, and while I'm grateful... you have to be prepared to let me go. My mother died. I could die. I would rather die than have the blood of all those men on my hands."

 

Loghain glanced up at Maric, eyes intense in the firelight. "Next time, I don't come to your rescue. Your're on your own."

 

I believe Loghain can be redeemed, and come Inquisition he's on the right path to redemption.



#14
robertmarilyn

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Oh, right. That one. Still... which is it? Is Duncan a rogue or a warrior in DAO?

 

Duncan is still a rogue in DAO but can fight as a warrior too...I think his shield is more of a plot thing so you can give it to Alistair. All of the GWs have to be able to use a sword though, to kill an archdemon if a sword through the head is what causes the archdemon to be really killed. 

 

At the beginning of DAO, when Duncan is narrating, I think he has two daggers on his back. I tried to pay attention to that since I was so fresh off of reading The Calling.



#15
robertmarilyn

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Oh, right. That one. Still... which is it? Is Duncan a rogue or a warrior in DAO?

 

Responding to this again. Here's the link to Duncan's page:

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Duncan

 

The picture of Duncan from DAO shows him with two daggers on his back. 



#16
Deadly dwarf

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Responding to this again. Here's the link to Duncan's page:

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Duncan

 

The picture of Duncan from DAO shows him with two daggers on his back. 

 

But when you retrieve his weapons in "Return to Ostagar," you get one dagger and one sword.  I can't remember, what did he use when he took out the ogre?



#17
robertmarilyn

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But when you retrieve his weapons in "Return to Ostagar," you get one dagger and one sword.  I can't remember, what did he use when he took out the ogre?

 

I guess you can call him a one handed sword with dagger guy. He has a shield too.  :D



#18
robertmarilyn

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Look at what is at the bottom of the Wiki page, under Trivia (towards the bottom of the page)

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Duncan

 

So he IS a "one handed sword with dagger" guy!  :)



#19
Ash Wind

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I couldn't get past the first few pages. David Gaider is a good video game writer, but he's really not a very good narrative writer. 
 
But I have read read extensive plot and reader response overviews, and it really fails to impress me. His lying about Katriel, and Flemeth's warning to Maric that "he'll betray you, each time worse than the last" did away with whatever good opinion I had of his original character in the game proper. In the game, everyone talks about how what an honest, noble, honorable, stalwart, upstanding guy he had been all his life up to his betrayal at Ostagar, which almost led me to believe that his paranoia regarding Orlais led to this completely uncharacteristic laps in character. The Stolen Throne reveals that, nope, he was a lying, back-stabbing snake in the grass long before Ostagar.
 
Also, the plight he suffered under Orlais is nothing new to me--I figured as much based on what he said in the game proper. It just makes me that much more disgusted with his hypocrisy regarding elves. Apparently "slavery" is an unforgivable travesty when it happens to him and his, but it's completely fine when it happens to elves, because they're just elves. What do they need freedom for? He tries to justify all his countless war crimes on the excuse that he's trying to maintain Ferelden's independence, but then sells Ferelden citizens into slavery to fill his own coffers. So much for his precious Night Elves. Why arm your elven citizens to help maintain Ferelden's independence when you can just sell them to arm your real soldiers? Human freedom is not negotiable--he'd sooner have them die by darkspawn than even risk them living under occupation again. Elven freedom? Sold to the highest bidder! All in the name of saving the whose freedom is worth preserving, of course.
 
Loghain still rots in my worldstate.

While I am not as harsh on DG's writing skills as you, he's no Tolstoy. The writing is often clumsy at times but it does give some insight to certain character motivations and the Ferelden v. Orlais hatred. If I recall correctly, Flemeth tells Maric...
 

Spoiler

 

I agree with your assessment of Loghain, and I feel his actions at Ostagar are premeditated, but the book at least succeeds in revealing he's not just a total douche and that there is at least a foundation to his paranoia. I've only spared Loghain once... and that was to see how things played out.


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#20
Qun00

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Duncan is still a rogue in DAO but can fight as a warrior too...I think his shield is more of a plot thing so you can give it to Alistair. All of the GWs have to be able to use a sword though, to kill an archdemon if a sword through the head is what causes the archdemon to be really killed.

At the beginning of DAO, when Duncan is narrating, I think he has two daggers on his back. I tried to pay attention to that since I was so fresh off of reading The Calling.


He does use a two-handed sword to destroy the mirror in the Dalish origin, though.
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#21
Deadly dwarf

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He does use a two-handed sword to destroy the mirror in the Dalish origin, though.

 

Seems like Duncan can use everything except a bow or a staff!  :D  ​A bit inconsistent.  Seems as if there was a disconnect somewhere.  The weapons you retrieve at Ostagar should be the ones Duncan uses to slay the Ogre.  Oh well....truthfully, I didn't notice this on my previous playthroughs.



#22
springacres

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Seems like Duncan can use everything except a bow or a staff!  :D  ​A bit inconsistent.  Seems as if there was a disconnect somewhere.  The weapons you retrieve at Ostagar should be the ones Duncan uses to slay the Ogre.  Oh well....truthfully, I didn't notice this on my previous playthroughs.

Agreed.  I believe he also uses a Dalish dagger to kill Ser Jory.

 

Oh, well, consistency isn't exactly Bioware/EA's strong point in this series.


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#23
Marika Haliwell

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I'm reading The Calling right now and i can say that DG's writing is better than in The Stolen Throne. But I do love Grey Wardens so i eat everything written about them without thinking about writing style lol. Next it will be The Last Flight, even if I know that Asunder comes first.


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#24
Melbella

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Throwing my 2 cents (and pics) in on Duncan's weaponry. In the game intro cutscene and the Alienage origin, he is equipped with both sword and dagger.

Spoiler


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#25
ThomasBlaine

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Loghain uses the argument of pragmatism and speaks of the benefits of selling them to slavery when you question him about it.

Funny how the value of freedom is relative and negotiable when it isn't your people's.

 

Personally I think that speaks for single-mindedness more than hypocrisy. He never proclaims himself a defender of elves to my recollection. In fact, he sacrifices the majority of his super-special elven commandos to save Maric at one point.