Personally I think that speaks for single-mindedness more than hypocrisy. He never proclaims himself a defender of elves to my recollection. In fact, he sacrifices the majority of his super-special elven commandos to save Maric at one point.
Not to that extent, but Loghain does claim that he was saving their lives by getting them out of the darkspawn horde's way.
And I'm thinking, "Sure, I believe you".
One of the many reasons I don't mind Loghain being dead in my games.
Not to that extent, but Loghain does claim that he was saving their lives by getting them out of the darkspawn horde's way.
And I'm thinking, "Sure, I believe you".
One of the many reasons I don't mind Loghain being dead in my games.
Nobody is advocating his decision to turn to slavetrading.
I'm reading The Calling right now and i can say that DG's writing is better than in The Stolen Throne. But I do love Grey Wardens so i eat everything written about them without thinking about writing style lol. Next it will be The Last Flight, even if I know that Asunder comes first.
I'm about a third of the way through The Calling myself and am enjoying it so far. Interesting to see young Duncan and Fiona! Definitely not one to read before a first playthrough of Origins since it has too many spoilers about Grey Wardens even though the events in it occur before those of Origins. I can see where it would add value if read before The Awakening, however.
One of the many reasons I don't mind Loghain being dead in my games.
Do the books ever explain why Loghain is so suspicious of Grey Wardens? They seem to come as a close second after Orlesians.
Most likely because of what happens in The Calling. Also due to the fact the Wardens in that book are from Orlais. Not that they are all Orlesian by birth, of course, but I'm pretty sure that didn't matter to Loghain.
Most likely because of what happens in The Calling. Also due to the fact the Wardens in that book are from Orlais. Not that they are all Orlesian by birth, of course, but I'm pretty sure that didn't matter to Loghain.
Howe, who hates Orlesians and Grey Wardens more or less equally because of his father apparently having perished in the Joining, could also be influencing him on the matter by encouraging those suspicions.
They might even have suspected Duncan personally of being part of the conspiracy pushing Cailan to get into bed with the Empress. Or simply blamed him for helping Maric turn the boy into a simpering gloryhound instead of a sensible ruler.
As of last night, I have finished reading both "The Calling" and "Asunder." A quick synopsis of what DA players might find of interest from these books, though perhaps "Asunder" is best left to the Inquisition forum area. In general, I liked "Stolen Throne" but found "Asunder" the best of the trilogy. Though it had its good points, "The Calling" was the weakest of the three; I felt it fell apart in the last quarter of the book.
As mentioned earlier, I did like "Stolen Throne" for giving players a sense of Ferelden's recent history and its relationship with Orlais. For a history major like myself, the adventurers of Maric reminded me of the struggles of both Bonnie Prince Charlie and of Charles II to regain the throne of England and I could also compare the relationship of Ferelden and Orlais with that of England and France. For gamers, the big takeaway is Loghain's role in Ferelden history and seeing where his animosity towards the Orlesians comes from.
"The Calling" takes place after the events of "Stolen Throne" but still before the events of "Dragon Age Origins." Even so, for those few who would read the book before playing the game, you should read "The Calling" AFTER Origins but BEFORE Awakening. Part of the magic of that first playthrough of Origins is the way the PC finds out the hard way about the dangerous way one becomes a Grey Warden and then about Ultimate Sacrifice. In "The Calling," you get to see a close-knit team of Grey Wardens in action and everything about Wardens is discussed openly, possibly providing spoilers for the first time Origins player. However, the events in "The Calling" do have a direct connection with those of Awakening and shed some light on some things first-time players of Awakening might find confusing. In a nutshell, the plot involves a group of Wardens from Orlais (the Grey Wardens had been banned from Ferelden much earlier) who appear before the court of King Maric asking for help in finding Ortan Thaig in the Deep Roads. The brother of the Warden Commander had gone into the Deep Roads for the Calling. But instead of a glorious death against Darkspawn, the Warden Commander senses that her brother is still alive...and possibly in the hands of the Darkspawn. The Warden Commander fears her brother may reveal the locations of the Old Gods to the Darkspawn, thus resulting in another Blight. King Maric, surprisingly, decides to guide the Wardens himself into the Deep Roads and so begins the adventure.
Key positives about "The Calling":
(1) Meeting young Duncan, a rogue who was recently inducted into the Wardens ironically after killing the Warden Commander's fiancé. After reading the book, one can see why Duncan recruited the cutpurse Davith.
(2) Observing a group of experienced Grey Wardens in action, as opposed to Allistair and the PC winging it with some questionable characters.
(3) Meeting Fiona when she was a Grey Warden.
(4) More of a sense that you are in the game world of Dragon Age, particularly when the characters are in the Deep Roads or when the mages are using magic.
(5) Encounter two of the key antagonists from Awakening and have them more thoroughly explained.
On the negative side, I felt that the story fell apart in the last quarter of the book.
"Asunder" is the best of the Gaider trilogy. It falls between the events in DA2 and just before Inquisition. I'll probably post more about it in the Inquisition forum. I did want to mention one the things I liked about was the way it provided continuity between Origins and Inquisition. Two of my favorite Origins characters, Wynne and Shale, figure prominently in it and Leliana makes an appearance as well.
There is just one thing I don't understand. Why do the Dalish clans always choose to capture the humans?
Clan Vihnern (or however it's spelled) does the same thing in the Masked Empire.
You either kill them immediately or drive them away with a warning. Bringing them to camp reveals the clan's location and forces the elves to move again.
I don't think they planned to truly capture them anyways. It was all for Maric/Flemeth's sake. They just put a scare into them, but were really killing the other dudes in pursuit of Loghain and Maric.
Much is said that Loghain can be excused for his ignorance of why Wardens are needed because the Wardens are sooo secretive; But there have been 4 earlier Blights well recorded by Thedosian Historians and the Wardens were instrumental in each one. If you go by Loghains logic of I don't know thats true because I haven't experienced it, so next time someone tells him don't touch that its hot he has to pick it up to experience it for himself. To discount 4 prior Blights as evidence the GW are vital to defeating an Arch Demon is incredibly arrogant.
And his betrayal of his own countries people (Fereldan Elves) is obscene given his history with the Night Elves.
I read the book and it just reinforced my dislike of this character, not that the character isn't complex flawed and well written because it is; Loghain is not a character I believe can be excused or redeemed for his actions against Rowan, Maric, Cailan the elves of Ferelden and the Grey Wardens.
edit: 
Loghain cannot be excused or redeemed is what I meant to write Clearly, but I rambled so it wasn't expressed well. This characters actions just make me see red.
Much is said that Loghain can be excused for his ignorance of why Wardens are needed because the Wardens are sooo secretive; But there have been 4 earlier Blights well recorded by Thedosian Historians and the Wardens were instrumental in each one. If you go by Loghains logic of I don't know thats true because I haven't experienced it, so next time someone tells him don't touch that its hot he has to pick it up to experience it for himself. To discount 4 prior Blights as evidence the GW are vital to defeating an Arch Demon is incredibly arrogant.
And his betrayal of his own countries people (Fereldan Elves) is obscene given his history with the Night Elves.
I read the book and it just reinforced my dislike of this character, not that the character isn't complex flawed and well written because it is; Loghain is not a character I believe can be excused or redeemed for his actions against Rowan, Maric, Cailan the elves of Ferelden and the Grey Wardens.
I read the book, hoping it would give me insight into Loghain that would allow me to see him in a better light. Instead it made him seem even worse in my eyes. He always thought he knew what was best for everyone, while hurting so many people, making sure he got HIS way. 
I read the book, hoping it would give me insight into Loghain that would allow me to see him in a better light. Instead it made him seem even worse in my eyes. He always thought he knew what was best for everyone, while hurting so many people, making sure he got HIS way.
I totally agree.
I despise this character.
Much is said that Loghain can be excused for his ignorance of why Wardens are needed because the Wardens are sooo secretive; But there have been 4 earlier Blights well recorded by Thedosian Historians and the Wardens were instrumental in each one. If you go by Loghains logic of I don't know thats true because I haven't experienced it, so next time someone tells him don't touch that its hot he has to pick it up to experience it for himself. To discount 4 prior Blights as evidence the GW are vital to defeating an Arch Demon is incredibly arrogant.
And his betrayal of his own countries people (Fereldan Elves) is obscene given his history with the Night Elves.
I read the book and it just reinforced my dislike of this character, not that the character isn't complex flawed and well written because it is; Loghain is not a character I believe can be excused or redeemed for his actions against Rowan, Maric, Cailan the elves of Ferelden and the Grey Wardens.
edit:
Nice post for laying out the case against Loghain based on his actions during Origins. I don't see how any elf PC could ever justify sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet. Also a human noble might see his relations as an indication of Loghain's acquiescence in the massacre of the Couslands. If your PC is a mage who was a libertarian, he/she might view Loghain more sympathetically and blame "Broken Circle" strictly on Uldred. Only dwarve PCs would detached enough from the sins of Loghain to consider sparing him.
I read the book, hoping it would give me insight into Loghain that would allow me to see him in a better light. Instead it made him seem even worse in my eyes. He always thought he knew what was best for everyone, while hurting so many people, making sure he got HIS way.
Regarding Stolen Throne, the big point I got was that Maric would not have succeeded in regaining the throne without Loghain's help. There's a reason why he was seen as a national hero. Two negatives about Loghain from ST: his cold-heartedness in the Katriel episode (though it can easily be argued that Katriel should've been punished) and also the heroic way in which Rowan saves Loghain makes him look like a complete monster as he fails to do the same for Rowan's only son at Ostagar.
Regarding his behavior toward the Grey Wardens, I do have to lay some blame on Duncan. By maintaining his absolute secrecy about the nature of Grey Wardens, he let Cailan and Loghain proceed with a strategy at Ostagar that made no sense given that Grey Wardens were so few. Given that the Grey Wardens' most essential role is in killing the Archdemon, Duncan's small force should've been held in reserve until the AD appeared. If Duncan had taken Cailan and Loghain into his confidence regarding this, Cailan might have been less reckless about his own safety. Loghain would've been forced to rethink his secret plans since defeating the AD would have been impossible without GW help.
All that said, I have yet to spare Loghain. (I've never completed a dwarf origin.)
Agreed. I believe he also uses a Dalish dagger to kill Ser Jory.
Oh, well, consistency isn't exactly Bioware/EA's strong point in this series.
Such is the problem with masterpieces created by committee! David Gaider writes one thing in his books, but something else shows up in the game. Throughout origins, Loghain is described as Anora's regent, but the yahoo he sends to enlist the aid of the dwarves in the Frostback mountains refers to him as "King Loghain!"
Oh, look on the bright side and marvel that the game ultimately turned out as well as it did!
The... deadly dwarf hasn't completed a dwarf origin. Huh.
Ironic isn't it! Actually, I got my start in Inquisition and on my very first playthrough, I did so as a dual wield dwarf. I had absolutely no knowledge of the previous Dragon Age games or the lore behind it all. Still a lot of fun, but boy was I winging it!
Nice post for laying out the case against Loghain based on his actions during Origins. I don't see how any elf PC could ever justify sparing Loghain at the Landsmeet. Also a human noble might see his relations as an indication of Loghain's acquiescence in the massacre of the Couslands. If your PC is a mage who was a libertarian, he/she might view Loghain more sympathetically and blame "Broken Circle" strictly on Uldred. Only dwarve PCs would detached enough from the sins of Loghain to consider sparing him.
Regarding Stolen Throne, the big point I got was that Maric would not have succeeded in regaining the throne without Loghain's help. There's a reason why he was seen as a national hero. Two negatives about Loghain from ST: his cold-heartedness in the Katriel episode (though it can easily be argued that Katriel should've been punished) and also the heroic way in which Rowan saves Loghain makes him look like a complete monster as he fails to do the same for Rowan's only son at Ostagar.
Regarding his behavior toward the Grey Wardens, I do have to lay some blame on Duncan. By maintaining his absolute secrecy about the nature of Grey Wardens, he let Cailan and Loghain proceed with a strategy at Ostagar that made no sense given that Grey Wardens were so few. Given that the Grey Wardens' most essential role is in killing the Archdemon, Duncan's small force should've been held in reserve until the AD appeared. If Duncan had taken Cailan and Loghain into his confidence regarding this, Cailan might have been less reckless about his own safety. Loghain would've been forced to rethink his secret plans since defeating the AD would have been impossible without GW help.
All that said, I have yet to spare Loghain. (I've never completed a dwarf origin.)
Rowan's rescue would have looked anything but heroic if she'd gotten herself and all her men killed, arrived too late to save Loghain in any case, delayed Maric's retreat by throwing herself into danger and completely ruining the plan thus getting everyone killed, or if Loghain turned out not to miraculously be a military genius main character whose subsequent accomplishments far outweighed all the risk she took to save him.
Maric does the exact same thing for Rowan later in the book, and then Katriel does it for all three of them later again, leaving the entire rebel army to be destroyed while she suicidally drags them through the Deep Roads.
I think Loghain learns the lesson and applies his experience exactly right by for once not risking thousands of men and women to save a few people for sentimental reasons or on the off-chance that one of them turns out to be hugely important later on. The only reason it's a mistake - and we don't actually know that it is, for all we know the battle really was unsalvageable by then - is that Grey Wardens really are sooooo secretly special and actually physically necessary to end the Blight. and that it actually is a blight, and that there's actual Fereldan first-hand witness testimonials to be found to that effect. Information the he inexplicably isn't privy to, but which might have compensated for his very real suspicion of the order grounded entirely in personal experience with them.
Aside from horrible cutscene cinematography that makes him look like a disney villain just to introduce tension, I honestly can't find any rational reason to blame him for his actions at Ostagar. Sure he commits treason in legal terms, likely breaking crapload of vows and ordering his men to do the same, but I'd have done the exact same thing in his shoes.
Rowan's rescue would have looked anything but heroic if she'd gotten herself and all her men killed, arrived too late to save Loghain in any case, delayed Maric's retreat by throwing herself into danger and completely ruining the plan thus getting everyone killed, or if Loghain turned out not to miraculously be a military genius main character whose subsequent accomplishments far outweighed all the risk she took to save him.
Maric does the exact same thing for Rowan later in the book, and then Katriel does it for all three of them later again, leaving the entire rebel army to be destroyed while she suicidally drags them through the Deep Roads.
I think Loghain learns the lesson and applies his experience exactly right by for once not risking thousands of men and women to save a few people for sentimental reasons or on the off-chance that one of them turns out to be hugely important later on. The only reason it's a mistake - and we don't actually know that it is, for all we know the battle really was unsalvageable by then - is that Grey Wardens really are sooooo secretly special and actually physically necessary to end the Blight. and that it actually is a blight, and that there's actual Fereldan first-hand witness testimonials to be found to that effect. Information the he inexplicably isn't privy to, but which might have compensated for his very real suspicion of the order grounded entirely in personal experience with them.
Aside from horrible cutscene cinematography that makes him look like a disney villain just to introduce tension, I honestly can't find any rational reason to blame him for his actions at Ostagar. Sure he commits treason in legal terms, likely breaking crapload of vows and ordering his men to do the same, but I'd have done the exact same thing in his shoes.
Regarding the critical importance of GWs in killing the AD, I do think Duncan makes a big mistake in not taking Cailan and Loghain into his confidence about why GWs are critical. Given that there are only a handful in Ferelden, it makes no sense to put them on the frontline in a battle with Gemlocks and Hurlocks when the AD is nowhere in sight. The GWs needed to be held in reserve until the AD makes its appearance with a few being attached with scouts to gather info on darkspawn positions and numbers. Perhaps Cailan wouldn't have been so anxious to put himself in danger and Loghain wouldn't have been so quick to throw the GWs under the bus. From having read "The Calling," I also understand why Loghain was less than enthusiastic and worshipful of the GWs and, to some degree, thought of them as Orlesian interlopers.
Going back to the battle itself, the cut-scene does a good job of making Loghain look cold and villainous and also making Cailan's situation unsalvageable. Remember the "strategy:" Duncan signals the tower and the tower signals Loghain. If Loghain is close enough to the battle to see that Cailan's situation is desperate, wouldn't he also be able to see Duncan's signal as well? Why would he need the tower signal at all? What can he really see? My own guess is that BW intentionally leaves this situation ambiguous. As you can see on this board, people can make impassioned arguments either way regarding Loghain. Otherwise, if he's purely a villain, who would do anything but execute him?
It would be an incredibly bad idea for the darkspawn-fighting order to sit back and not fight darkspawn while ordinary soldiers got killed.
It would be an incredibly bad idea for the darkspawn-fighting order to sit back and not fight darkspawn while ordinary soldiers got killed.
In the end, though, there is nothing special about Wardens other than how the taint allows them to detect darkspawn and kill the AD. When you only have a small number of Wardens, the priority should be clear.
In the end, though, there is nothing special about Wardens other than how the taint allows them to detect darkspawn and kill the AD. When you only have a small number of Wardens, the priority should be clear.
Going back to the battle itself, the cut-scene does a good job of making Loghain look cold and villainous and also making Cailan's situation unsalvageable. Remember the "strategy:" Duncan signals the tower and the tower signals Loghain. If Loghain is close enough to the battle to see that Cailan's situation is desperate, wouldn't he also be able to see Duncan's signal as well? Why would he need the tower signal at all? What can he really see?
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