47 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

Not all the Chantry! The "celestial marriage" (so to speak) is from the South. Tevinters have different ideas, as Dorian explains:

 

"The Imperium believes Andraste was a mortal woman. A mage. Down south, they say, "No, she's the bride of the Maker! Ascended to His side, divine provenance, blah, blah, blah." We feel better believing Andraste was one of us. Makes executing her less damning, you see."

 

Why? Andraste FOUNDED her religion (ok, there was an ancient Tevinter cult of the Maker, but certainly the modern Chant). SHE decides what is and is not acceptable within it. I actually found it bizarre that the Chantry embraced celibacy despite their Prophet having an earthly husband as well as a divine one.

 

Now imagining a fictional scene in which the Chantry excommunicates Andraste for going against Andrastian values

[Big I]

Now imagining a fictional scene in which the Chantry excommunicates Andraste for going against Andrastian values

 

Considering they removed the Canticle of Shartan and broke Andraste's promise of an elven homeland, I could see them doing something like that. Maybe retool the Chant so that "Andraste" is a metaphor instead of a real person.

[Big I]

^What @Shechinah said

It is not her religion it is the religion that worship the Maker built upon the events of her life.

What Leliana is doing is a step back.

 

A step back to the original gospel and holy writ.

[9TailsFox]

Vivienne is concubine, or whatever Orlesian call her. Their relationship caused a huge scandal at the time because of Vivienne's status as a mage. Bigger problem was she is mage not becouse Duke Bastien de Ghislain married.

[Illegitimus]

FTFY,

 

I am simply making a point that the Chantry's prophet is an adulterous woman and since the Chantry looks up to her and her actions, they condone adultery.

 

 

 

Your point is wrong.  At least as far as the Chantry's portrayal of her goes she refuses the Maker's offer until after she dies.  

[Xerrai]

*googles pictures of Andraste*

 

How did I only just realise this?!? They are kinda similar. 

But so is Meredith's headpiece.....

[Abyss108]

But so is Meredith's headpiece.....

 

Well, it makes sense that a Templar would wear something based off Andraste as they are part of the Chantry!

[Gervaise]

Andraste was married to the Maker spiritually.   It is not clear if she encountered him/it the first time long before her marriage to Maferath, since she was having trances and visions from childhood.   What Sebastian offers Hawke in DA2 if he stays in the Chantry is a spiritual marriage, imitating the relationship the Chantry teach that Andraste had with the Maker.    This was not a physical relationship so there is no adultery involved.

 

Initially Andraste was considered not robust enough to have children, so it may be that Maferath didn't have sex with her either until much later.   He took a concubine and had 3 sons by her that were effectively considered the children of his marriage to Andraste.   Then later their marriage clearly was consummated because she had 2 daughters.  

 

As for the scandalous play in Masked Empire, this was a political satire intended to criticise Celene.    There is no evidence that Andraste had any sort of sexual relationship with Shartan.    Indeed Gisharel makes the point that Andraste called him "brother".    It was because of the clear loyal friendship between Andraste and Shartan that the Chantry removed the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant, not because of any suggestion that she had improper relations with him.    If anything it seems strange that the faithful of Andraste show such a cavalier attitude towards the memory of their prophet.     You would think there would have been riots at the theatre and Gaspard would have been vilified for insulting Andraste rather than people find it amusing but I've always maintained that the nobles of Orlais have a very odd attitude towards their religion and give it lip service only.   Please bear in mind that at the same time this play was being performed, the professors of the university were producing papers saying that the elves' ears marked them out as similar to prey animals and that anyone fornicating with a elf is insulting the Maker, as "one who lies with animals."    So if people really believed that Andraste had relations with Shartan they were effectively accusing her of bestiality.     To my mind it was Gaspard who was insulting the Maker and Andraste.

[ModernAcademic]

Is it just me or is the Chantry pro adultery and pro polygamy ? Their prophet is someone who got married to the Maker even though she was already legally married to Maferath.

 

Here's the relevant quotation from the Dragon Age Wiki.

 

 

 

So Andraste joins the Maker spiritually (f*cked a powerful Fade spirit, probably did it dreamer style like Solas and Lavellan at Haven) while she was legally and lawfully wedded to Maferath.

 

Heck, just imagine the whole thing taking place:

 

 

It reminds me of Joseph and Mary. Mary cheats on Joseph with god but its okay because she is still a virgin.Later on, Andraste becomes Maker's spiritual bride (probably had a wedding in the Fade).

 

 

Then there's the rumors (probably more than rumors) that Andraste slept with Shartan, during their rebellion against Tevinter. You can find this being discussed in The Masked Empire page 109 and 110.

 

While Maferath is out leading the army and fighting hard, Andraste is out cheating again. That guy really can't catch a break can he ? He must be the biggest cuck in Thedas. On top of it all, he gets branded as the villain by history.

 

My point is this :- The Chantry follow the teachings of Andraste and look up to her. Andraste cheated on her husband, twice (as far as we know) - Once with a Fade spirit and the second time with an Elf. Logically, this means that the Andrastian Chantry supports adultery and polygamy.

 

Wow. The Chantry admits people are unfaithful and prone to adultery.

 

What a stunning revelation.

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Andraste was married to the Maker spiritually.   It is not clear if she encountered him/it the first time long before her marriage to Maferath, since she was having trances and visions from childhood.   What Sebastian offers Hawke in DA2 if he stays in the Chantry is a spiritual marriage, imitating the relationship the Chantry teach that Andraste had with the Maker.    This was not a physical relationship so there is no adultery involved.

 

How do you know there was no physical relationship involved ? We know a Fade spirit like a Desire Demon can have physical relationship with creatures of flesh.

[9TailsFox]

How do you know there was no physical relationship involved ? We know a Fade spirit like a Desire Demon can have physical relationship with creatures of flesh.

And look at Solas "friend"

[TobiTobsen]

Andraste was married to the Maker spiritually.   It is not clear if she encountered him/it the first time long before her marriage to Maferath, since she was having trances and visions from childhood.   What Sebastian offers Hawke in DA2 if he stays in the Chantry is a spiritual marriage, imitating the relationship the Chantry teach that Andraste had with the Maker.    This was not a physical relationship so there is no adultery involved.

 

Creepy fellow, that Maker, eh?

 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Creepy fellow, that Maker, eh?

 

 

As there is one life, one death, there is but one god ,and he is the Pedobear Maker.

 

Pedobear Maker.

 

Pedoker !

 

[JadeDragon]

A spirit and or God should abide by a"lawful legal" marriage because the laws of man because why? It was a spiritual marriage if the southern chantry is correct which means it is not binded to earthly laws or what is considered legal. So sure you can considered adultery if you want to but technically its not because your comparing what humans considered a formal agreement legal to a spirit or God that does not have to abide by that especially if it created everything then that means that marriage could not have been that legal then because who is ruling over who the king or the god?

[nightscrawl]

Back in Andraste time , a husband could have multiple wives.Don't think it was working the other way around though.

Anyway current Thedas look down at this , thinking it was all distasful barbarian tradition.

 

As for Andraste and the Maker , well it's a spiritual marriage so not exactly the same as a normal marriage.

And Shartan and Andraste touching each others in places are just rumors .

In the Masked Empire it's a comedy to mock Empress Celene and Briala.It's more likely the Chantry would burn the heretic actors than going" but of course Andraste was cheating on her husband/sleeping with elves/ had funny relationship with her generals."

 

Celene and Briala aren't adulterous because neither of them are married.

[Gervaise]

You seem to be confusing what a Fade spirit may or may not be capable of with a mortal with what the Chantry teaches and therefore condones.    The Chantry teaches that it was a spiritual marriage.   The reason why it previously insisted upon its clerics being celibate was because they were meant to be mimicking the relationship with the Maker that Andraste had; so they are married to the Maker.   Of course that overlooks the fact that Andraste was also married to a mortal and had a normal married relationship with him, including children.   Which is why Leliana feels able to make changes in order that she can continue her relationship with her earthly lover at the same time as being Divine.     There is still a clear distinction between the two types of relationship, though.  

 

So far as people keeping concubines/mistresses/lovers is concerned at the same time as they are married, this seems to be accepted practice throughout Thedas, at least so far as men are concerned.  Some societies require the person to be discrete about it; others are quite open.  There is nothing actually in the Chant about sexual relations and therefore the Chantry doesn't get involved in the issue.    In Orlais both Leliana and Vivienne are recognised as "official" mistresses of important nobles and Vivienne says that she had a perfectly amiable relationship with her lover's real wife.   This seems to reflect the fact that most marriages, at least among the nobility, are arranged and politically motivated, having nothing to do with the feelings that exist between the spouses.   So long as the required heir is produced, everyone seems happy.     This is where Celene runs foul because she has maintained a lover without doing her duty, marrying appropriately and producing an heir.    This is also where double standards are likely to apply, just as they did in the real world, when it comes to a married woman maintaining a male lover because of the doubts over the parentage over any potential offspring, whereas it is very clearly with a married man whether the child he has fathered is legitimate or illegitimate.    It is all to do with matters of power and inheritance and thus any censure applied comes from the secular society they live in, not the Chantry.

 

So the Chantry does not support adultery but it does not condemn it either, because apparently the Maker has nothing to say on the matter.

[Reznore57]

Celene and Briala aren't adulterous because neither of them are married.

 

I wasn't saying they were I said the Andraste/Shartan comedy was to mock them , nothing else.

[Mistic]

Considering they removed the Canticle of Shartan and broke Andraste's promise of an elven homeland, I could see them doing something like that. Maybe retool the Chant so that "Andraste" is a metaphor instead of a real person.

 

Considering that DA:I revealed many truths about the ancient Elvhenan and their "gods", as well as exploring the whole Messiah archetype (even the most pagan or atheistic Inquistor can't help but wonder how much their lives will be discussed for centuries despite denying time and again that they're the Herald of Andraste), I wonder what DA4 may have in store for Andraste.

 

As Tevinters like to remember, the Imperium is the place where the prophet died and the first country to officially convert to Andrastianism. The same as I expect more revelations about Arlathan (the forest is next to Tevinter, and there's the Solas plot), I'm hopeful about more information on Andraste.

[straykat]

I don't think any of this even matters.

 

What's important is Andraste freed slaves. I find it hard to find fault with someone like that.

 

And it still matters when discussing Tevinter. You could give Andraste 100 faults, and yet she'd still be better than Tevinter.. even current Tevinter. Just for this one issue.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Andraste was married to the Maker spiritually.   It is not clear if she encountered him/it the first time long before her marriage to Maferath, since she was having trances and visions from childhood.   What Sebastian offers Hawke in DA2 if he stays in the Chantry is a spiritual marriage, imitating the relationship the Chantry teach that Andraste had with the Maker.    This was not a physical relationship so there is no adultery involved.

 

Initially Andraste was considered not robust enough to have children, so it may be that Maferath didn't have sex with her either until much later.   He took a concubine and had 3 sons by her that were effectively considered the children of his marriage to Andraste.   Then later their marriage clearly was consummated because she had 2 daughters.  

 

 

So what you're saying is that ANdraste was not a true bride of the Maker,fair enough i don't think a Creator needs brides

[mrs_anomaly]

So what you're saying is that ANdraste was not a true bride of the Maker,fair enough i don't think a Creator needs brides

I think you should allow for the fact that a "Creator" can make his or her or It's own decision 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

A Maker can't make decisions because is perfection  since they are supposed to be infallible such perfection can only be expressed through silence.

[mrs_anomaly]

A Maker can't make decisions because is perfection  since they are supposed to be infallible such perfection can only be expressed through silence.

 

 

So you presume to know what perfection is and how it is exhibited.