477 réponses à ce sujet

[Hasagawa]

I've lost heads and tails of what this thread is supposed to be about.

What im trying to say here is, Lack of diversity in this game. You "born" into different races and gender, but you cant be anyone you like in this game, you can only be a Mary-sue hero,or a bad-tempered mary-sue. Lack of diversity,along with so many other flaws, like unconvincing retard villain, weak plot, unrealistic world and politics and religions,short main story.MMO-like combat system (I even learned a sword trick or two from Geralt of Rivia, and learned katana in real life for a long time. ) made DAI impossible to beat TW3,no matter on which console. DAI is not even close to TW3 in my heart. 

[lynroy]

Hello, my comment was not directed at you. Have a pleasant day.

[correctamundo]

I've lost heads and tails of what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

I have totally missed this thread but it has been fun reading so far.

 

[correctamundo]

What im trying to say here is, Lack of diversity in this game. You "born" into different races and gender, but you cant be anyone you like in this game, you can only be a Mary-sue hero,or a bad-tempered mary-sue. Lack of diversity,along with so many other flaws, like unconvincing retard villain, weak plot, unrealistic world and politics and religions,short main story.MMO-like combat system (I even learned a sword trick or two from Geralt of Rivia, and learned katana in real life for a long time. ) made DAI impossible to beat TW3,no matter on which console. DAI is not even close to TW3 in my heart. 

 

And TW3 isn't even close to DAI in "my heart". It's good, but no cigar.

 

It's like...

 

[Hasagawa]

And TW3 isn't even close to DAI in "my heart". It's good, but no cigar.

 

It's like...

 

 

True, I made myself clear that ALL I think about TW3 and DAI is my personal opinion. My taste is why I left dragonage series, If someone loved DAI, thats their taste, not because I play DAI in a wrong way. 

 

 

I still back to this forum, to see news about Mass effect, though. 

[Rel Fexive]

Okay, so, it's taken until now for me to have the opportunity to respond to this, and maybe the boat has long since moved on, but what the hell...

 

Yeah, keep CDPR out of my DAI!

I just looked up on CDPR's next project, Cyberpunk 2077, and what I saw in the trailer didn't ease my fears of how the developer treats women in their games. Granted, the video I saw is a few years old and I don't know the state of the game at this point. But the trailer depicts a scantily clad woman/cyborg on her knees surrounded by dead bodies and geared up men shooting at her. She's frozen in place, almost in shock and a man walks up behind her and holds a gun to her head. Next we see her geared up and apparently part of the team, which is good, but that part of the video only lasts a second. That trailer has so many problematic elements; I have to question why that was what they chose to put out there and why they focused on a sexualized woman in a vulnerable position without any agency. The world actually looks interesting but from what I've seen, this game might be more of the same stuff I don't want to see.

 

Speaking as someone familiar with the tabletop RPG this game is based on, there's some background information that isn't being presented in that vid that would add a lot of context to it.  Though, watching it again, a lot of it is there already.

 

In the setting having cybernetics brings on a psychological condition known as cyberpsychosis, which makes sufferers feel alienated and dehumanised, more machine than human, the more they replace parts of themselves with implants.  This sometimes culminates in individuals suffering a psychotic break and going on a destructive killing spree.  When that happens a special police unit is called in, generally known as the cyberpsycho unit or "max tac", to deal with them.  Usually with excessive force - this is a cyberpunk dystopia, after all.

 

So the "geared up men" (some of whom might be women, it's hard to tell with the armour and helmets) are the police, as is pretty clear from all the POLICE written across everything.  The news broadcast bit makes it clear they have apprehended a suspect in a massacre - the woman.  The bodies?  Her victims.  She's had plenty of agency up to this point, apparently, of the murderous variety, judging by all the blood on her blades, and is very seriously augmented herself if she's literally bulletproof. 

 

So no, she's not a victim, unfairly oppressed by nasty nasty men, she's a crazed killer being taken out by the police.  And she's certainly not "frozen in place, almost in shock" because the whole scene is frozen except for the slow moving bullets.  The only moving things, in fact, are the bullets and laser scan-y thing from the flying police car.

 

None of that specifically excuses the choices of scanty clothing or the posture, though, but maybe it would have worked (a tiny little bit) better had she looked "defeated but defiant" like a cornered murderous crazy instead of impassive and vulnerable (as vulnerable as a bulletproof cyborg killer can be, anyway) - maybe she's gone all "emotionless cyber killer" or something, I don't know.  Could definitely have done with her looking more animated instead of blank, I would say.

 

I think the pose is also something of a homage to a piece of art from the original 1988 RPG, which also appears in an advert in the scene.

 

 

As for why we see her apparently with the max tac guy in some vehicle or other, I've no clue.  We don't even know if that's before or after the main scene.  I assume it's a bit of intrigue-ment intended to hook interest.  Which it certainly has.  Maybe she's the protagonist?  Or a possible one, and the bloke is the other possibility?  Or maybe it's just a teaser unrelated to the plot of the game.  No idea.

 

 

 

So, well, that's that then.

 

 

 

*holsters Militech Crusher shotgun, climbs onto Harley-Davidson Darkwing motorcycle, and rides off into the Combat Zone of Night City*

[maia0407]

Thanks for the info! I have to admit that I'm interested in this game as it sounds right up my alley except for how the women are depicted. When I saw people talking about the game, I decided to check it out and immediately found that video. You've provided a lot of good context but that the fact that the devs chose to release their first trailer with a scantily clad woman on her knees surrounded by men and carnage speaks volumes about their lack of care for the message they are sending. They are advertising their game to people that probably don't have this background knowledge and that's what they put out there as the face of their game. At the very least put some clothes on her and pose her differently.

As to the men surrounding her being police, that really doesn't help instill confidence either as the police aren't exactly known to be saints. After watching the video, I read that she might be a murderer but without that insight on first viewing I didn't know if she was the survivor of a mass killing, acted in self defense or what happened. All I see is a woman on her knees, covered in blood, surrounded and being shot at with dead bodies around her. The devs could have put anything out there to advertise their game and this video with all its problems is what they chose. Again, that and their issues with women in The Witcher series doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that they can make a game I want to play. I'm hoping that the developer has listened to the calls for inclusiveness that have been made over the years since that video was made and that they put out a game that I will play as well. If not, I'll stick to the developers that I trust.

[Rel Fexive]

Yes, they could've put a bit more context into the vid.  A picture of her with MURDER SUSPECT (or SPREE KILLER maybe?) underneath in the news item, for example, would have made that much clearer.  And making the reader of the news item more clear audibly.  I think it probably relies a little too much on viewer knowledge of the RPG to work as it currently appears.

[In Exile]

Thanks for the info! I have to admit that I'm interested in this game as it sounds right up my alley except for how the women are depicted. When I saw people talking about the game, I decided to check it out and immediately found that video. You've provided a lot of good context but that the fact that the devs chose to release their first trailer with a scantily clad woman on her knees surrounded by men and carnage speaks volumes about their lack of care for the message they are sending. They are advertising their game to people that probably don't have this background knowledge and that's what they put out there as the face of their game. At the very least put some clothes on her and pose her differently.

As to the men people surrounding her being police, that really doesn't help instill confidence either as the police aren't exactly known to be saints. After watching the video, I read that she might be a murderer but without that insight on first viewing I didn't know if she was the survivor of a mass killing, acted in self defense or what happened. All I see is a woman on her knees, covered in blood, surrounded and being shot at with dead bodies around her. The devs could have put anything out there to advertise their game and this video with all its problems is what they chose. Again, that and their issues with women in The Witcher series doesn't inspire a lot of confidence that they can make a game I want to play. I'm hoping that the developer has listened to the calls for inclusiveness that have been made over the years since that video was made and that they put out a game that I will play as well. If not, I'll stick to the developers that I trust.

 

Keep in mind that the CDPR that released that teaser is not the same one today, particularly with respect to their mainstream appeal and the general scope of their audience. It's likely that whatever they do with their teaser concept, the base game will be pretty different. 

 

The other thing is that CDPR struggles a bit to actually capture the undertone of their adaption. Geralt, for example, is basically the ultimate SJW of his setting, and TW1-3 don't always capture that one. 

[roselavellan]

Yeah, keep CDPR out of my DAI!
 

 

Simple, and well said

 

I'm hoping that the developer has listened to the calls for inclusiveness that have been made over the years since that video was made and that they put out a game that I will play as well. If not, I'll stick to the developers that I trust.

 

Being a woman who played TW3, I can quite confidently state that they have no interest in appealing to women. But who knows? 

[Addictress]

CDPR's treatment of women and overall political sensitivities are awful. Their world-building isn't as deep.

So to get back on topic, I again maintain that a partnership between Bioware and CDPR would basically be a world-ending treat, like a 9th wonder of the world. Thx

[In Exile]

CDPR's treatment of women and overall political sensitivities are awful. Their world-building isn't as deep.

So to get back on topic, I again maintain that a partnership between Bioware and CDPR would basically be a world-ending treat, like a 9th wonder of the world. Thx

 

They design very different forms of games, and they lie to their audience in pretty different ways, so I'm not sure it would work out. 

[Al Foley]

How does CDPR mistreat women?  Do all women have to be amazing super heroes who can do...everything?  And given that three of the four main characters of the W 3 are rather severe bad arses who are perfectly capable of owning all sorts of grizzly monsters on their own thank-you-very-much...I don't get the argument. 

[In Exile]

How does CDPR mistreat women?  Do all women have to be amazing super heroes who can do...everything?  And given that three of the four main characters of the W 3 are rather severe bad arses who are perfectly capable of owning all sorts of grizzly monsters on their own thank-you-very-much...I don't get the argument. 

 

It's about the kinds of gender stereotypes CDPR strongly reinforces, though not all of them are necessarily driven by their design. A fair number of them are basic to their setting (e.g., the way sorceresses appear). Bioware isn't necessarily great (or even good) in this regard either. 

[Rel Fexive]

I should think all the random sexing Geralt can do everywhere he goes doesn't help either.

[vbibbi]

I will say that I felt CDPR went overboard in depicting violence against women several times. The crime lord who held Ciri's trinket comes to mind. It felt like there was more violence against women which was irrelevant to the setting (e.g. casualties of war as we go through battlefields) and was for sensational value rather than because it added anything to the game.

 

Not all women were depicted in such a way, but I would have preferred less female victims just because they're women. The setting is a crapsack world and everyone's miserable, so let everyone be miserable equally.

[Al Foley]

I should think all the random sexing Geralt can do everywhere he goes doesn't help either.

Remember those cards you could collect in Witcher 1?  lol.  Those were horible.  

[In Exile]

I will say that I felt CDPR went overboard in depicting violence against women several times. The crime lord who held Ciri's trinket comes to mind. It felt like there was more violence against women which was irrelevant to the setting (e.g. casualties of war as we go through battlefields) and was for sensational value rather than because it added anything to the game.

 

Not all women were depicted in such a way, but I would have preferred less female victims just because they're women. The setting is a crapsack world and everyone's miserable, so let everyone be miserable equally.

 

I don't think violence against women is actually irrelevant to the setting. I mean, it's hard to say what it was really like in a culture like that one - we have very limited insight into their social order. But certainly the perception is that violence against women was more common and acceptable.

 

There are generally two problems with how CDPR tells a story about domestic violence. The first is the audience, which tends to completely miss the point. The Bloody Baron is a great example, here.  The second is how you're just the heroic empowered spectator (who also gets the cathartic moment of potentially punching/killing/insulting/demeaning/defeating the evil abuser). The women in these stories are typically bystanders in their own narrative, once the protagonist comes on the scene. 

[vbibbi]

I don't think violence against women is actually irrelevant to the setting. I mean, it's hard to say what it was really like in a culture like that one - we have very limited insight into their social order. But certainly the perception is that violence against women was more common and acceptable.

 

There are generally two problems with how CDPR tells a story about domestic violence. The first is the audience, which tends to completely miss the point. The Bloody Baron is a great example, here.  The second is how you're just the heroic empowered spectator (who also gets the cathartic moment of potentially punching/killing/insulting/demeaning/defeating the evil abuser). The women in these stories are typically bystanders in their own narrative, once the protagonist comes on the scene. 

 

Yeah, but there were cases of excessive violence which served no purpose. What was the point of that crime lord having tortured and killed all of those prostitutes? It would have served the same purpose in the story if we saw him with just one woman, not loads of bodies. Plus it's unrealistic that women would keep coming to him when they knew no one who entered his house ever came back out. Even if they're hard up for money, they're not going to accept a job where there's a 100% of death.

 

It was really just murder porn.

[AlanC9]

They design very different forms of games, and they lie to their audience in pretty different ways, so I'm not sure it would work out.

I think we can all agree that CDPR is way better at the lying part, though. Bio should just copy their approach to that wholesale.

[In Exile]

Yeah, but there were cases of excessive violence which served no purpose. What was the point of that crime lord having tortured and killed all of those prostitutes? It would have served the same purpose in the story if we saw him with just one woman, not loads of bodies. Plus it's unrealistic that women would keep coming to him when they knew no one who entered his house ever came back out. Even if they're hard up for money, they're not going to accept a job where there's a 100% of death.

 

It was really just murder porn.

 

Oh, absolutely none. Well, that's not true. It has the same purpose as any kind of of violence and sadism in a game: make you hate the antagonist, and make it really satisfying when we shove a sword through their throat. That's part of the empowering experience of fantasy - we see the kind of gratuitous horror that would make us feel so powerless and sick IRL, but we stop it. The scene has as much point as any scene where anyone is victimized for the purpose of making the player hate the villain. 

 

It wasn't my intention to defend that scene, so much as to say that I do think, in the abstract, the setting is an appropriate one to explore issues of violence against women. My actual view of that scene is essentially the one I mentioned on point two: it is about the heroic protagonist sweeping in to save the victimized women. This is part of why we see these flame wars come up - not everyone views this scene as offensive, because they see it from within the lens it was designed: a vicious victimizer, a number of innocent victims, and the heroic protagonist coming in to stop all of it. 

 

I think we can all agree that CDPR is way better at the lying part, though.

 

They're way better at lying to the core audience, but I think that's because they just have a different philosophy. They believe in lying to the core audience, then getting great word of mouth through them, and then dragging in the casuals that way. Bioware (or EA) believes in heavily marketing to the casuals directly, on the view that the core audience will just come in anyway. 

 

EA (and Bioware) just struggle fundamentally with not creating negative press for their own product by forgetting - constantly - who builds buzz for them. 

[General TSAR]

CDPR's treatment of women and overall political sensitivities are awful.

Because they don't care about feels nor try to pander to the ultra-PC babies.

 

Another reason why CDPR's writing is superior.

[In Exile]

Because they don't care about feels nor try to pander to the ultra-PC babies.

 

Another reason why CDPR's writing is superior.

 

That's just nonsense. The reason why TW3 has so many spectacular quest is specifically because of this type of highly emotional story-driven telling. I mean, the main plot is about Geralt reconnecting with his lost daughter. 

[vbibbi]

I think we can all agree that CDPR is way better at the lying part, though. Bio should just copy their approach to that wholesale.

 

Lying about what exactly? When Laidlaw said that bringing Dorian on the In Hushed Whispers mission would have a different effect than if different companions were included? Or that sending Leliana as the advisor for that mission would have the "bad" ending we see with two companions dying would only be one possible outcome of the quest?

 

Or how they still said the captured keeps would be customizeable through the entire development cycle, even after they had cut it?

 

Or the marketing tag line, lead them OR FALL.

[Al Foley]

Because they don't care about feels nor try to pander to the ultra-PC babies.

 

Another reason why CDPR's writing is superior.

I don't know I still put BioWare's writing ahead of theirs in almost every single category.