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I'm starting to realize DA:I would've beaten TW3 if it didn't have to bend over backwards for PS3 Compatibility


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#326
Lezio

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I think we can all agree that CDPR is way better at the lying part, though. Bio should just copy their approach to that wholesale.

 

They should, yeah. For example, instead of showing the whole fort mechanic in the gamelay trailer for Inquisition, they should have shown the elf-root collecting mechanic with slightly better graphics than what we got.

 

Seriously, from what i remember the only questionable thing CDPR ever said about TW3 is that there was no downgrade (and the game is still up there with MGSV graphically), see ME3 whole marketing campaign for an example of Bioware's kind of lying (and Inquisition's too, really)



#327
In Exile

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Lying about what exactly? When Laidlaw said that bringing Dorian on the In Hushed Whispers mission would have a different effect than if different companions were included? Or that sending Leliana as the advisor for that mission would have the "bad" ending we see with two companions dying would only be one possible outcome of the quest?

 

Or how they still said the captured keeps would be customizeable through the entire development cycle, even after they had cut it?

 

Or the marketing tag line, lead them OR FALL.

 

The downgrade on visuals? The fact that they redesigned the UI, etc. from TW1 to TW2 from the ground up to sell on consoles? It's that stuff. 



#328
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That's just nonsense. The reason why TW3 has so many spectacular quest is specifically because of this type of highly emotional story-driven telling. I mean, the main plot is about Geralt reconnecting with his lost daughter

LOL, I'm talking about feels not feelings.

 

Great games produce feelings, ultra sensitive idiots produce feels and get offended over pretty much anything. 


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#329
Al Foley

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Lying about what exactly? When Laidlaw said that bringing Dorian on the In Hushed Whispers mission would have a different effect than if different companions were included? Or that sending Leliana as the advisor for that mission would have the "bad" ending we see with two companions dying would only be one possible outcome of the quest?

 

Or how they still said the captured keeps would be customizeable through the entire development cycle, even after they had cut it?

 

Or the marketing tag line, lead them OR FALL.

Not a lie.  Given all the many, many, many ways you can fall/ fail in that game. 



#330
In Exile

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LOL, I'm talking about feels not feelings.

 

What? I have no idea what you think the slang "feels" means, but you're definitely not using it right. This is literally the urban dictionary definition of the slang term:

 

Feelings you get when something you read/see/hear/etc is just so touching and perfect that you can't help but make sounds, curl into a ball, and never stop thinking about said thing that made you this way.

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#331
Al Foley

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What? This is literally the urban dictionary definition of the slang term:

 

Feelings you get when something you read/see/hear/etc is just so touching and perfect that you can't help but make sounds, curl into a ball, and never stop thinking about said thing that made you this way.

 

Also when you fan your hands across your face. :P



#332
General TSAR

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What? I have no idea what you think the slang "feels" means, but you're definitely not using it right. This is literally the urban dictionary definition of the slang term:

 

Feelings you get when something you read/see/hear/etc is just so touching and perfect that you can't help but make sounds, curl into a ball, and never stop thinking about said thing that made you this way.

(Facepalm)

 

Read post number 328 and maybe you'll understand.



#333
In Exile

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(Facepalm)

 

Read post number 328 and maybe you'll understand.

Here's the beauty of the internet: when you edit your post after the fact to try and hide that you got owned, the original quote lives on in the unedited post. Yes, now I've read your post after you strategically edited it. 

 

You're still using the word "feels" wrong, which is just slang for a particularly strong kind of feeling. It's a positive term. You're using it wrong. It's OK. You don't have to feel ashamed about being wrong. You can still thump your chest about your political views anyway. 



#334
vbibbi

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The downgrade on visuals? The fact that they redesigned the UI, etc. from TW1 to TW2 from the ground up to sell on consoles? It's that stuff.


I'm not sure what you mean in the second point. To be fair, I didn't actually follow TW marketing, I bought it months after release just from good user reviews. I never played the first two, so I don't know what the differences are. But it seems like every game boasts better visuals than what we get. The DAI trailers also had better graphics than the end product, and the graphics in the leaked alpha video look better than the actual content. (I know the leaked alpha doesn't count as marketing since it wasn't intended for public consumption, but the point remains that at some point in the game's development, the graphics were better.)

If discussing UI in TW3, how is that different than the "Made by PC gamers or PC gamers" tagline for DAI which was wildly untrue?

Not a lie. Given all the many, many, many ways you can fall/ fail in that game.


Eh, I think we've had this conversation before. I don't consider the marketing that there's an option for failure to mean the player can lose the game by dying. That's nearly every RPG out there. If that were the case, then they don't need to put that tag line in, it's assumed. Mentioning the "or fall" part means going above the customized death messages and having a worst case scenario end game, or at least a final video of world state failure where Corypheus goes into the Breach and we see the Dark Future from IHW become real.
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#335
In Exile

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I'm not sure what you mean in the second point. To be fair, I didn't actually follow TW marketing, I bought it months after release just from good user reviews. I never played the first two, so I don't know what the differences are. But it seems like every game boasts better visuals than what we get. The DAI trailers also had better graphics than the end product, and the graphics in the leaked alpha video look better than the actual content. (I know the leaked alpha doesn't count as marketing since it wasn't intended for public consumption, but the point remains that at some point in the game's development, the graphics were better.)

 

TW2's marketing - and dialogue with the fans - was all about putting the PC on a pedestal. You know, the usual stuff we have fans here talk about, except in that case it was the devs saying it. Mind you, saying it while designing a UI from the ground up to work for a controller, only playtesting TW2 with a controller on PC, and eventually coming up with a garbage UI for the PC. 

 

My point isn't that CDPR is any more misleading than Bioware. Just more successful at it. 

 

If discussing UI in TW3, how is that different than the "Made by PC gamers or PC gamers" tagline for DAI which was wildly untrue?

 

It's not, that's the point. There's also their whole "we care about gamers" tagline, which is just marketing fluff for their business line, as every one of their decisions is quite calculated and made for the sake of improving revenue. 


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#336
General TSAR

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Here's the beauty of the internet: when you edit your post after the fact to try and hide that you got owned, the original quote lives on in the unedited post. Yes, now I've read your post after you strategically edited it. 

 

You're still using the word "feels" wrong, which is just slang for a particularly strong kind of feeling. It's a positive term. You're using it wrong. It's OK. You don't have to feel ashamed about being wrong. You can still thump your chest about your political views anyway.

Sure buddy and maybe just maybe you forgot that the page doesn't update in real time unless you refresh or click the update button so maybe just maybe I decided to clarify to prevent any confusion before I saw your post?

 

I understand that you love to think you crushed me for some strange reason, but looks like your self declared victory is quite short lived.

 

And feels are still separate from feelings.



#337
Lezio

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TW2's marketing - and dialogue with the fans - was all about putting the PC on a pedestal. You know, the usual stuff we have fans here talk about, except in that case it was the devs saying it. Mind you, saying it while designing a UI from the ground up to work for a controller, only playtesting TW2 with a controller on PC, and eventually coming up with a garbage UI for the PC. 

 

My point isn't that CDPR is any more misleading than Bioware. Just more successful at it. 

 

Lying about the UI, though, isn't exactly the same thing of lying about, well, basically everything about the game. Again, the fort mechanics come to mind, the 17 endings of ME3 soon follow and the whole "your choices will matter" (Rachni :lol: ) soon follow

 

As i already said, just gotta compare TW3 gameplay trailer to Inquisition's. In the former there are better graphics, in the latter there completely different mechanics from what we got :P



#338
In Exile

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I understand that you love to think you crushed me for some strange reason, but looks like your self declared victory is quite short lived.

 

And feels are still separate from feelings.

 

The reason would be actually crushing you. It's okay. We can talk it out. This is a safe space. I've got my victory cigar. It feels great. As for the second point, here's a list of urban dictionary definitions for "feels" and "the feels":

 

"the feels":

  • the wave of emotion that hits you like a truck and leaves you think **** man why
  • The feeling you get and can't quite explain, making you speechless and go crazy when that certain someone looks at you just the right way, or really, does anything.
  • Emotions that involve feeling deep empathy for someone who is in obvious pain or feeling so deeply confused that you cannot put your emotion into words.
  • The feels a very very strong over bearing emotion of depression and overly sadness, you will most likely end up crying a ocean and end up emotional messed up and basically dead. It will hit you very very hard. You will not see it. It will already be too late

"feels"

  • Shortened version of 'feeling', generally a strong emotional response.
  • An intense emotional response to something percieved, such as a romantic, sad, or otherwise memorable scene in a book/movie
  • A word used to describe something that is intensely emotional on a level somewhere between you feeling empty and you on the floor in a ball weeping uncontrollably.

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#339
General TSAR

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The reason would be actually crushing you. It's okay. We can talk it out. This is a safe space. I've got my victory cigar. It feels great. As for the second point, here's a list of urban dictionary definitions for "feels" and "the feels":

 

"the feels":

  • the wave of emotion that hits you like a truck and leaves you think **** man why
  • The feeling you get and can't quite explain, making you speechless and go crazy when that certain someone looks at you just the right way, or really, does anything.
  • Emotions that involve feeling deep empathy for someone who is in obvious pain or feeling so deeply confused that you cannot put your emotion into words.
  • The feels a very very strong over bearing emotion of depression and overly sadness, you will most likely end up crying a ocean and end up emotional messed up and basically dead. It will hit you very very hard. You will not see it. It will already be too late

"feels"

  • Shortened version of 'feeling', generally a strong emotional response.
  • An intense emotional response to something percieved, such as a romantic, sad, or otherwise memorable scene in a book/movie
  • A word used to describe something that is intensely emotional on a level somewhere between you feeling empty and you on the floor in a ball weeping uncontrollably.

 

My oh my and I thought Best Korea was delusional with their claims of victory.

 

Sorry but feels is different than feelings in the context I was using.


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#340
Addictress

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<p>

The reason would be actually crushing you. It's okay. We can talk it out. This is a safe space. I've got my victory cigar. It feels great. As for the second point, here's a list of urban dictionary definitions for "feels" and "the feels":

"the feels":

  • the wave of emotion that hits you like a truck and leaves you think **** man why
  • The feeling you get and can't quite explain, making you speechless and go crazy when that certain someone looks at you just the right way, or really, does anything.
  • Emotions that involve feeling deep empathy for someone who is in obvious pain or feeling so deeply confused that you cannot put your emotion into words.
  • The feels a very very strong over bearing emotion of depression and overly sadness, you will most likely end up crying a ocean and end up emotional messed up and basically dead. It will hit you very very hard. You will not see it. It will already be too late
"feels"
  • Shortened version of 'feeling', generally a strong emotional response.
  • An intense emotional response to something percieved, such as a romantic, sad, or otherwise memorable scene in a book/movie
  • A word used to describe something that is intensely emotional on a level somewhere between you feeling empty and you on the floor in a ball weeping uncontrollably.

I want to point out "feels" can either be positive or negative, and can also be light or heavy. It can also be simple nostalgia.

#341
AlanC9

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My oh my and I thought Best Korea was delusional with their claims of victory.
 
Sorry but feels is different than feelings in the context I was using.


Different how, exactly? I'm not aware of anybody else using "feels" to mean "stuff I don't like."
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#342
Hasagawa

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Honestly, I never thought about women treatment in a game can be a major issue. Im not a political-sensitive person. I play male characters mainly(unless game dont allow me to,like Final Fantasy 13 and some others), but that just because I prefer my avatar to be a strong tough guy.

 

Basically, I see people by their traits, ambitious, zealous, rude, cunning,etc. When I play a game, especially a strategy game,Like crusader kings 2, or I m playing as a head of a political entity, I see NPCs their abilities and traits only,their natural born features, like their gender or race, means nothing to me. In the trailer of cyberpunk2077, I see a suspect murder kneeling on the ground shot by many, and head pointed by a gun, I dont know the world of Cyberpunk2077 very well to know if this is the stranded police actions, or Cyberpunk is a political-incorrect world where woman or cyborg are treated as inferior. To be honest,if latter is the case, I dont care.Maybe thats the world this game set. To some of you complain, i want to know is every game world has to be a political-correct so you going to play. Otherwise it is not a good game, and you call it's world unreal? Is because Thedas more political-correct, so some of you feel it's more real?Is game, meant to be a propaganda tool about political correctness which happens to be fun? 

 

I mean not to make you angry,I really dont know some concept, cause where Im living there is no much debate about political correctness,and those things rarely across my mind. 

 

Reading your comments reminds me, almost every argument I have about DAI, is based on my play-through, as male characters. I never touched another part of this game.And based on my observation, many of the DAI fans here are women, is it because female character play-through is more fun? They write better scripts and better voiced(I chose Qunari as my PC in DAI cos I want to be as badass as that qunari leader from DA2,insdead my PC sounds whiny)? They provide more choices for female characters(from reading your posts I found you can get married to cullen?! Really?I dont find a option to marry josie in my game,am I doing something wrong?Cos my PC really want to marry josie,to have a powerful adviser by my side is ensuring. Otherwise josie seems to be leliana's pawn. And Leliana is a lying ambitious power-hungry spymaster and an excellent fighter,just like my own PC)? 


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#343
Almostfaceman

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Honestly, I never thought about women treatment in a game can be a major issue. Im not a political-sensitive person. I play male characters mainly(unless game dont allow me to,like Final Fantasy 13 and some others), but that just because I prefer my avatar to be a strong tough guy.

 

Basically, I see people by their traits, ambitious, zealous, rude, cunning,etc. When I play a game, especially a strategy game,Like crusader kings 2, or I m playing as a head of a political entity, I see NPCs their abilities and traits only,their natural born features, like their gender or race, means nothing to me. In the trailer of cyberpunk2077, I see a suspect murder kneeling on the ground shot by many, and head pointed by a gun, I dont know the world of Cyberpunk2077 very well to know if this is the stranded police actions, or Cyberpunk is a political-incorrect world where woman or cyborg are treated as inferior. To be honest,if latter is the case, I dont care.Maybe thats the world this game set. To some of you complain, i want to know is every game world has to be a political-correct so you going to play. Otherwise it is not a good game, and you call it's world unreal? Is because Thedas more political-correct, so some of you feel it's more real?Is game, meant to be a propaganda tool about political correctness which happens to be fun? 

 

I mean not to make you angry,I really dont know some concept, cause where Im living there is no much debate about political correctness,and those things rarely across my mind. 

 

Reading your comments reminds me, almost every argument I have about DAI, is based on my play-through, as male characters. I never touched another part of this game.And based on my observation, many of the DAI fans here are women, is it because female character play-through is more fun? They write better scripts and better voiced(I chose Qunari as my PC in DAI cos I want to be as badass as that qunari leader from DA2,insdead my PC sounds whiny)? They provide more choices for female characters(from reading your posts I found you can get married to cullen?! Really?I dont find a option to marry josie in my game,am I doing something wrong?Cos my PC really want to marry josie,to have a powerful adviser by my side is ensuring. Otherwise josie seems to be leliana's pawn. And Leliana is a lying ambitious power-hungry spymaster and an excellent fighter,just like my own PC)? 

 

Yeah, we can't really get into political correctness on this forum. The mods will destroy the thread. 



#344
ArcaneEsper

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My oh my and I thought Best Korea was delusional with their claims of victory.

Sorry but feels is different than feelings in the context I was using.


um literally anyone who uses the term "feels" is expressing an emotional response to something as in, "feelings"

#345
Vanilka

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Honestly, I never thought about women treatment in a game can be a major issue. Im not a political-sensitive person. I play male characters mainly(unless game dont allow me to,like Final Fantasy 13 and some others), but that just because I prefer my avatar to be a strong tough guy.

 

Basically, I see people by their traits, ambitious, zealous, rude, cunning,etc. When I play a game, especially a strategy game,Like crusader kings 2, or I m playing as a head of a political entity, I see NPCs their abilities and traits only,their natural born features, like their gender or race, means nothing to me. In the trailer of cyberpunk2077, I see a suspect murder kneeling on the ground shot by many, and head pointed by a gun, I dont know the world of Cyberpunk2077 very well to know if this is the stranded police actions, or Cyberpunk is a political-incorrect world where woman or cyborg are treated as inferior. To be honest,if latter is the case, I dont care.Maybe thats the world this game set. To some of you complain, i want to know is every game world has to be a political-correct so you going to play. Otherwise it is not a good game, and you call it's world unreal? Is because Thedas more political-correct, so some of you feel it's more real?Is game, meant to be a propaganda tool about political correctness which happens to be fun? 

 

I mean not to make you angry,I really dont know some concept, cause where Im living there is no much debate about political correctness,and those things rarely across my mind. 

 

Reading your comments reminds me, almost every argument I have about DAI, is based on my play-through, as male characters. I never touched another part of this game.And based on my observation, many of the DAI fans here are women, is it because female character play-through is more fun? They write better scripts and better voiced(I chose Qunari as my PC in DAI cos I want to be as badass as that qunari leader from DA2,insdead my PC sounds whiny)? They provide more choices for female characters(from reading your posts I found you can get married to cullen?! Really?I dont find a option to marry josie in my game,am I doing something wrong?Cos my PC really want to marry josie,to have a powerful adviser by my side is ensuring. Otherwise josie seems to be leliana's pawn. And Leliana is a lying ambitious power-hungry spymaster and an excellent fighter,just like my own PC)? 

 

I'm no authority on the matter, but I think it's about providing content with women in mind as much as with men. We like when devs throw us a bone once in a while. I don't think it's about making the world sterilised and perfect and completely inoffensive. It's about the overall execution and about what kind of message you're sending to your audience and potential female fans. If a game obviously looks like it's targeted at guys - e.g. through making only girls obviously skimpy and sexual but rarely guys (Not talking about the Witcher or Cyperpunk now. I haven't played Witcher yet, mind you. I'm planning to, though.), camera lingering upon said female characters' assets but not guys', the option to only play a man might be a problem to some, the option to screw many chicks and no dudes, etc. - then it's not surprising some women just won't touch it. Perhaps not so much because it's "offensive", but because if a game was made with the expectations of mostly men to play it, we'll very much know it. Have you ever felt that something was just not made for you? (Like, this is a big stretch, but imagine picking up one of the Barbie video games that are made for little children. Would you feel perfectly at home playing it?) That's how some female fans might feel with some games that e.g. obviously contain a lot of fanservice with female characters, big differences between female and male characters, differences in the amount of content they get, etc. Great story, characters, gameplay, etc. help a great deal, but it's not everything.

 

Do I think we always need to make games for the general audience and to please every group? No, not at all. But then you must absolutely expect that your game will be more popular with one gender than the other, and some people will be straight up creeped out by it, because that's what you focused on while making it. And, of course, some people will always be complaining for not being included. Let's not delve into whether that's fair criticism or not - nobody likes being left out.

 

What I think DAI succeeds at is not "political correctness", but the fact we got a lot of content and the game doesn't give you the feeling that it was made with just men in mind. It might not be a perfect game by far, but I felt that I got content made for me and, hey, that feels nice - be it the fact nobody looks down upon my characters or the female NPCs for nothing but their gender, or because you can kick ass and save the world playing as your own gender, or because you don't just get exclusively female and lesbian romances, but fully developed male romances as well, etc.

 

That's just my point of view, though. I can't speak for all or even most women out there. Personally, I've always played all kinds of games. I'm currently on my way through Dead Space for the first time and enjoying it a great deal. But BioWare games will always have a special place in my heart because I feel that I can be a part of their world. And I don't blame anyone that not all games can do that. But it's nice when they do.


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#346
Bayonet Hipshot

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Honestly, I never thought about women treatment in a game can be a major issue. Im not a political-sensitive person. I play male characters mainly(unless game dont allow me to,like Final Fantasy 13 and some others), but that just because I prefer my avatar to be a strong tough guy.

 

*snip*

 

Treatment of fictional women in game is not an issue because those women in video games are not real.

 

When anyone here can bring up an actual peer reviewed study that states that video games have an actual effect in the real world on how real men treat real women, then I will stop saying that video games do not have an effect on real life but there is no such study.

 

In fact, the study that we have proves otherwise:- http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25844719

 

A new study published in the journal of Cyberpsychology, Behavior and Social Networking has confirmed what many already suspected was true: video games don’t cause sexism. After examining a number of games containing allegedly “sexist” tropes and monitoring the gamers who played them, a team of three psychologists from the University of Cologne found no evidence that video games can cause real-world sexism.

 

This study by the University of Cologne took 3 years, a substantial time period and a large sample size. This is important because much of the confusion around whether games cause violence is due to the confusion of short-term effects with long-term ones. It was once erroneously argued that short-term increases in aggression following certain video games proved they cause violence. Later studies found that these effects did not persist over time. The fact that this study took place over three years allowed the researchers to separate long-term effects from short-term ones.

 

Here is a link from a statistician who examines the study in depth:- https://medium.com/@...e625#.t3zjb62u3

 

Furthermore, there is another study that was conducted that shows that video games do not make people violent:- http://onlinelibrary...jcom.12129/full

 

Long-term research into homicide rates and depictions of violence in video games and movies shows no significant relationship. Major new research into the effects of violent movies and video games has found no long-term links with real-life violence. The methodology of previous laboratory studies, which have used spikes in short-term aggressive behaviour to suggest a causal relationship between screened and real-life violence have also been questioned in the report, published in the Journal of Communication.

 

Christopher Ferguson, a psychologist at Stetson University in Florida, carried out two studies into media violence. In the first, his team correlated US homicide rates between 1920 and 2005, with instances of violence depicted in motion pictures. Although there was evidence of a moderate correlation between a rise in screened and real-life violence during the 1950s, this reversed throughout the rest of the century, with instances of screen violence inversely related to homicide rates in the 1990s.
 

In the second study, consumption of violent video games was measured against youth violence rates in the previous 20 years. The study concluded that playing video games coincided with a fall in violent crime perpetrated by those in the 12-17 age group.

 

The research paper also questions the validity of previous studies into links between real-life and screened violence, which have largely relied on laboratory testing. The ways in which aggressive behaviors have been explored and measured in the past, with test subjects watching short clips of violent content and then carrying out specified activities, may well have led to results which have little relevance outside of the laboratory environment, the study suggests.

 

“The degree to which laboratory studies faithfully capture the media experience is also debatable,” writes Ferguson. “Many such studies provide exposure to only brief clips of media, rather than full narrative experiences, in which violence exposure is outside of a narrative context. The resultant aggressive behaviors are also outside a real-world context, in which the aggression appears to be sanctioned by the researchers themselves, who provide the opportunity for aggression.

“The close pairing of clips of media violence with sanctioned aggression asks may also set up demand characteristics that may explain the small effects typically seen from such studies. The degree to which such studies, regardless of their inconsistent results, can be generaliSed to societal aggression remains debatable.”

 

The possibility of a link between real-life and screened violence has been a source of huge controversy since the 1970s. The “video nasties” scare of the early 1980s led to the Video Recordings Act of 1984, which saw dozens of horror movies denied video classification. Since then, a series of mass shootings in the US have been linked to violent movies and video games. The perpetrators of the 1999 Columbine High School killings, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were said to have been obsessed with violent games such as Doom, while Anders Behring Breivik claimed to have played the military shooter Call of Duty in preparation for the killing of 77 people in Norway in 2011. In January 2013, Obama called for research into the effects of violent games after the Sandy Hook school shooting in Connecticut the previous December.

 

However, despite years of research, definitive links have not been found, partially because laboratory tests into aggression can only measure short-term aggressive reactions, and partly due to the myriad other psychological and sociocultural stimuli that play a part in violent behavior.

 

“Society has a limited amount of resources and attention to devote to the problem of reducing crime,” said Ferguson in a press statement. “There is a risk that identifying the wrong problem, such as media violence, may distract society from more pressing concerns such as poverty, education and vocational disparities and mental health. This research may help society focus on issues that really matter and avoid devoting unnecessary resources to the pursuit of moral agendas with little practical value.”

 

Here is the said press statement:- http://www.eurekaler...a-nlf102814.php

 

So for the last time:- Video games do not cause violence or sexism.

 

In fact, to quote Christopher Ferguson, the researcher who was part of the research team that debunked the video games make people violent argument:- “There is a risk that identifying the wrong problem, such as media violence, may distract society from more pressing concerns such as poverty, education and vocational disparities and mental health. This research may help society focus on issues that really matter and avoid devoting unnecessary resources to the pursuit of moral agendas with little practical value.”

 

People who go around and keep telling you that they need video game content to be friendly towards fictional women or fictional homosexuals because it will somehow affect the treatment of real women and real homosexuals are LYING. They are neo-Puritans whose main goals are to go on some ridiculously preposterous politically correct moral agenda with the goal of censoring things they do not like under nonsensical disproved claims.

 

Instead of going out there, to the real world and focusing about issues that really matter, like how women are being treated in Middle East or in Western Europe, they spend their time talking about women in video games, because focusing on real issues take actual effort and work, whereas focusing on things that have been disproven but feel good to keep repeating doesn't,


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#347
Addictress

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Media study is not social science. Media study relies on the reader's detached common sense and logic to put forth the relationship between art and culture.

Culture cannot be quantified. Culture is a system of values and beliefs, spread by symbols and art.

Assuming you are able to read and see, you should simply engage with arguments that point out interpretations and meaning in art. It does not require statistical data of cause and effect, because the logic is this:

An interpretation exists and a piece of art visibly communicates this message. The argument is that it's not just a few people or one person who sees this message. It is a large population of people. In order for a word, a symbol, or a message to hold any useful weight in language, it must mean the same thing to several people, right? That's what language is. The word apple refers to the same concept, or object, to me, as it does to you. That's how we speak to each other.

In social theory, multiple people agree that a certain image or set of images hold an obvious meaning - a message. It is proven by mere fact it is agreed upon by more than one subject to mean the same thing, to refer to a common concept.

I point to an image of a sexualized woman on the ground and the contextual absence of sexualized men on the ground in a vulnerable position as well as the context that it is a very early teaser, the agreed-upon impression being it is intended to grab attention. Who's attention? A large population of people agree that, given the cultural context it is intended to grab men's attention.

None of this is a statistical argument on who it affects and whether it does. All of it is merely pointing out the expression of an idea and a cultural message that is being broadcast. Whether it actually causes physical action in the real world is irrelevant. We simply stop at the mere fact of its existence and its prevalence and feel offended, just as a the mere broadcast of an insulting word might offend a passive listener.
  • Vanilka, blahblahblah, Ms. Sarsaparilla et 1 autre aiment ceci

#348
Addictress

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It's like trying to argue whether excessive use of the word f* actually causes people to do that. Obviously they don't, and it's pointless trying to look at some kind of empirical data about it.

It's simply held by many people as a distasteful word, which means something that makes us, as of now, uncomfortable.

The mere fact it makes much of the audience uncomfortable is enough for most to agree to reduce its use in a lot of media, although it is increasingly used. Mostly because the cultural taboo around sex is increasingly lifted.

The vulnerability and pervasiveness of sexualized women in stark contrast to an absence of sexualized, vulnerable men similarly is making people uncomfortable. And the underlying meaning isn't likely to be eased into widely accepted sensibilities any time soon.

That's it. The argument really stops there. If you want, you argue just how many people it offends. How many gamers are girls. How many gamers should be girls, and whether you care if they are offended, or whether they will really stop buying games if they are offended. Those are more constructive debates we could be having.
  • Vanilka, Ms. Sarsaparilla et ArcaneEsper aiment ceci

#349
Gwydden

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That's just my point of view, though. I can't speak for all or even most women out there. Personally, I've always played all kinds of games. I'm currently on my way through Dead Space for the first time and enjoying it a great deal. But BioWare games will always have a special place in my heart because I feel that I can be a part of their world. And I don't blame anyone that not all games can do that. But it's nice when they do.

Look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you say my collection's complete?

 

Ahem. Sorry. Got carried away  :lol:

 

But I appreciate your input. I played both TW1 and TW2 earlier this year and I feel inclined to say the series has become my favorite RPG franchise. And yet I avoided it for the longest time because of all the stuff I kept hearing about it around these parts.

 

Does it cater to straight males quite strongly? Yeah, that's undeniable. But also blown out of proportion, IMOSHO. I mean, someone said before that Geralt gets to sleep with a lot of women, but after hearing this for quite a while I decided to check the actual numbers and, surprise surprise, found that in TW2 and TW3 he can have sex with less women than a male Warden in DAO (not counting prostitutes in any of the three games).

 

The first one? Yeah, lots of (mostly silly and bare-bone) encounters. Not broken up about their departure over here. But good God, people made such a big deal out of the friggin' cards. Before I played the game I assumed, based on what I had heard, that there was some kind of little gallery inside the game with all the women Geralt had slept with arrayed there and some kind of system to let you know how many cards you were missing. And at the time I agreed that yeah, that's kind of in bad taste.

 

Instead, what I got was a codex that included all of the characters in the game. In order to see a card, you actually had to look for the corresponding character, then click on the heart icon in a corner of their (regular, non-sexualized) portrait. I really didn't feel like the game was encouraging me to "collect" them. I imagine a completitionist might feel that way, but then completitionists are crazy  :P Instead, I just felt like the cards were some tasteful erotic art that served as a cheap (in terms of resource cost) substitute for sex scenes, which the game didn't have.

 

And frankly, the idea that catering to straight men is problematic is what I find problematic. It seems to be implying that men can't be attracted to women and respect them at the same time. Would there be such a wave of offended people if Geralt was gay as they came and could sleep with a dozen dudes per game and collect erotic art depicting his male lovers? Or if the games had a female protagonist who did the same? Actually, there would be, but it would be from an entirely different demographic.  And the people who find TW offensive as it is now would condemn those other people as sexist and homophobic. So why is it okay one way and not the other?

 

I'm not accusing you here, mind you — just pointing out my personal issue with the way people tend to talk about TW around here. Especially since the series has no shortage of great female characters and it has gotten increasingly better at handling women. Which is not to say I don't see why others would be put off by some stuff in the games, but I can tell from personal experience that dismissing them because of preconceived prejudice is a bad idea.

 

We simply stop at the mere fact of its existence and its prevalence and feel offended...

So? Who cares?

 

Being offended is not an argument. Being offended means, if you would pardon my French, #@!%^&*!#$. Anyone can do it, as it is a remarkably easy thing to do. It takes exactly zero effort and comes with the added benefits of self-righteousness and entitlement. They do it on the left and they do it on the right, but no matter who does it, it still counts for pretty much nothing, give or take.

 

If I worked at Bioware or CDPR and someone told me I need to change a part of my creation because some people somewhere find it offensive (what a shock! I mean, it's not like everything everywhere is offensive to someone somewhere!) I would inquire after those people and politely ask them who the hell do they think they are. I mean no offense but it's really kind of arrogant, acting as if your feelings merit some kind of special treatment.

 

Just my two cents.


  • Bayonet Hipshot aime ceci

#350
Addictress

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Look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you say my collection's complete?

Ahem. Sorry. Got carried away :lol:

But I appreciate your input. I played both TW1 and TW2 earlier this year and I feel inclined to say the series has become my favorite RPG franchise. And yet I avoided it for the longest time because of all the stuff I kept hearing about it around these parts.

Does it cater to straight males quite strongly? Yeah, that's undeniable. But also blown out of proportion, IMOSHO. I mean, someone said before that Geralt gets to sleep with a lot of women, but after hearing this for quite a while I decided to check the actual numbers and, surprise surprise, found that in TW2 and TW3 he can have sex with less women than a male Warden in DAO (not counting prostitutes in any of the three games).

The first one? Yeah, lots of (mostly silly and bare-bone) encounters. Not broken up about their departure over here. But good God, people made such a big deal out of the friggin' cards. Before I played the game I assumed, based on what I had heard, that there was some kind of little gallery inside the game with all the women Geralt had slept with arrayed there and some kind of system to let you know how many cards you were missing. And at the time I agreed that yeah, that's kind of in bad taste.

Instead, what I got was a codex that included all of the characters in the game. In order to see a card, you actually had to look for the corresponding character, then click on the heart icon in a corner of their (regular, non-sexualized) portrait. I really didn't feel like the game was encouraging me to "collect" them. I imagine a completitionist might feel that way, but then completitionists are crazy :P Instead, I just felt like the cards were some tasteful erotic art that served as a cheap (in terms of resource cost) substitute for sex scenes, which the game didn't have.

And frankly, the idea that catering to straight men is problematic is what I find problematic. It seems to be implying that men can't be attracted to women and respect them at the same time. Would there be such a wave of offended people if Geralt was gay as they came and could sleep with a dozen dudes per game and collect erotic art depicting his male lovers? Or if the games had a female protagonist who did the same? Actually, there would be, but it would be from an entirely different demographic. And the people who find TW offensive as it is now would condemn those other people as sexist and homophobe. So why is it okay one way and not the other?

I'm not accusing you hear, mind you — just pointing out my personal issue with the way people tend to talk about TW around here. Especially since the series has no shortage of great female characters and it has gotten increasingly better at handling its women. Which is not to say I don't see why others would be put off by some stuff in the games, but I can tell from personal experience that dismissing them because of preconceived prejudice is a bad idea.

So? Who cares?

Being offended is not an argument. Being offended means, if you would pardon my French, #@!%^&*!#$. Anyone can do it, as it is a remarkably easy thing to do. It takes exactly zero effort and comes with the added benefits of self-righteousness and entitlement. They do it on the left and they do it on the right, but no matter who does it, it still counts for pretty much nothing, give or take.

If I worked at Bioware or CDPR and someone told me I need to change a part of my creation because some people somewhere find it offensive (what a shock! I mean, it's not like everything everywhere is offensive to someone somewhere!) I would inquire after those people and politely ask them who the hell do they think they are. I mean no offense but it's really kind of arrogant, acting as if your feelings merit some kind of special treatment.

Just my two cents

There is a difference between being offended by someone making jokes about rape and being offended by a bit of political satire. Offense can take many forms.