"How dare you ask for your perspective to be acknowledged? That's just so PC! " cries the offended straight white dude as he surveys the rows upon rows of video games featuring lantern jawed white dude and booberella as his side kick.
See, I'm so un-PC, I don't even really mind the occasional booberella. But I found TW3 insulting.
"How dare you ask for your perspective to be acknowledged? That's just so PC! " cries the offended straight white dude as he surveys the rows upon rows of video games featuring lantern jawed white dude and booberella as his side kick.
Your neo-Puritanical anti-sex perspective ? I mean who are you to tell what other women should wear ? Do you see men telling other men, other fictional men what to wear ? Nope. Neither should you.
I know many women IRL who dress in what you call "objectifying manner" and they do so because they like it. So you would tell these women to not do that because of your "perspective" ?
Your flawed perspective that video games somehow cause sexism and violence ? You shouldn't be surprised why your perspectives are neither acknowledged nor represented.
Their treatment of women wasn't just some random aspect of the game that one had to nitpick to be sensitive about - it was extremely pervasive. I rarely get sensitive about PC issues, but this was blatant and inescapable. Almost every time a woman was featured, she was either inappropriately sexualised (from bizarre cleavage to wearing high heels in combat), a prostitute (practically half the women in Novigrad were prostitutes!), a victim or a monster. The only exceptions I can think of are Cerys an Craite and Rosa Var Attre. Sex scenes were clearly porn designed exclusively for the male viewer.
I have been playing computer games for years, but to date, this has been the only game I've found offensive. So, no, I don't expect game developers to cater to my "particular sensibilities", but I do expect them not to cross the line into blatant, pervasive sexism.
For you, its inappropriately sexualized. Not for other women. Don't claim to speak for all women. Just go to CDPR forums or Witcher reddit site and see how many women there enjoy playing the game and like the female characters.
So what do you call the sex scene in ME1 ? Porn ? This level of moral posturing reminds of Fox News and their anti-sex crusade against Mass Effect.
You are behaving exactly like the anti-sex conservatives at Fox News only now its somehow justifiable to you because its The Witcher ?
How is this any different from a certain religion that forces women to cover themselves up ? You know the reason they give for forcing women into covering themselves up - Because men are sex-crazed animals and we must protect the women and this is how we should do it.
Actually, Geralt is even worse in the books. Hell, he gets into a relationship with Fringilla Vigo while he's pursuing Yennefer and Vilgefortz
Also, apart from Yennefer and Triss, in TW2 and TW3 it's possible to have sex with, what, 5 women? (Ves, elf in Iorveth's path, Cynthia, the battle-maiden in Skellige and Keira, plus the prostitutes if one doesn't have internet for that kind of thing)
Why is this a problem ? Geralt is a mutant and a social outcast. Only the delusional would think that somehow Geralt's action will turn men everywhere into horndogs. Reality check - They don't.
Fyi, Celene slept with and f*cked Briala while she did horrible things to her family and to the Elves. Leliana f*cked clients and sometimes killed them. Isable f*cked around so hard that she had to go to a Spirit Healer to cure her STDs.
Somehow no complaints there. Oh wait, those are women, Geralt is a white male. So its muh privilege
I mean, looking at some of the responses in this thread, its like people want female characters and homosexual characters with no flaws, female characters that will wear what these people dictate them to wear and how these people dictate them to present themselves because otherwise its muh soggy knees and bad representation.
Story be damned. Characters be damned. Consistency be damned. What we want is cultural authoritarianism and censorship.
Except my perspective is being acknowledged and respected by more and more devs. And that's why we see socially inept guys raging about women and SJWs and their effects on games. You were whining earlier in this thread about it. You can't have it both ways by claiming women are both ignored and that our complaints are ruining gaming. LolYour neo-Puritanical anti-sex perspective ? I mean who are you to tell what other women should wear. Do you see men telling other men, other fictional men what to wear ? Nope. Neither should you.
Your flawed perspective that video games somehow cause sexism and violence ? You shouldn't be surprised why your perspectives are neither acknowledged nor represented.
For you, its inappropriately sexualized. Not for other women. Don't claim to speak for all women. Just go to CDPR forums or Witcher reddit site and see how many women there enjoy playing the game and like the female characters.
So what do you call the sex scene in ME1 ? Porn ? This level of moral posturing reminds of Fox News and their anti-sex crusade against Mass Effect.
Why is this a problem ? Geralt is a mutant and a social outcast. Only the delusional would think that somehow Geralt's action will turn men everywhere into horndogs. Reality check - They don't.
Fyi, Celene slept with and f*cked Briala while she did horrible things to her family and to the Elves. Leliana f*cked clients and sometimes killed them. Isable f*cked around so hard that she had to go to a Spirit Healer to cure her STDs.
Somehow no complaints there. Oh wait, those are women, Geralt is a white male. So its muh privilege
I mean, looking at some of the responses in this thread, its like people want female characters and homosexual characters with no flaws, female characters that will wear what these people dictate them to wear and how these people dictate them to present themselves because otherwise its muh soggy knees.
Why is this a problem ? Geralt is a mutant and a social outcast. Only the delusional would think that somehow Geralt's action will turn men everywhere into horndogs. Reality check - They don't.
Fyi, Celene slept with and f*cked Briala while she did horrible things to her family and to the Elves. Leliana f*cked clients and sometimes killed them. Isable f*cked around so hard that she had to go to a Spirit Healer to cure her STDs.
Somehow no complaints there. Oh wait, those are women, Geralt is a white male. So its muh privilege
I mean, looking at some of the responses in this thread, its like people want female characters and homosexual characters with no flaws, female characters that will wear what these people dictate them to wear and how these people dictate them to present themselves because otherwise its muh soggy knees and bad representation.
Story be damned. Characters be damned. Consistency be damned. What we want is cultural authoritarianism and censorship.
I was arguing that CDPR stayed true to the character and didn't make Geralt sleep around just for kicks (which, again, he does a total of 5 times in both games if the player decides to). Calm down
Except my perspective is being acknowledged and respected by more and more devs. And that's why we see socially inept guys raging about women and SJWs and their effects on games. You were whining earlier in this thread about it. You can't have it both ways by claiming women are both ignored and that our complaints are ruining gaming. Lol
Once again, its not about the women. Its about the anti-sex, neo-Puritans, cultural authoritarian censorship that are ruining game. You just happen to be a woman. You can be a lizard or a whale for all I care and if you are anti-sex, neo-Puritans, cultural authoritarian censor, then you are ruining gaming. You are no different from people at Fox News, from crazy Puritans and from Muslim fundamentalists.
Which developers ? Bioware ? The developer that has pretty much lost most of its important people who have left the company and is now pushing out offline MMOs ? Beamdog ? The folks who got so much criticism that they were forced to explain their transgender character a lot better.
Developers who pander to the kind of people who promote this unhealthy neo-Puritan mentality are usually the ones that no one really cares about outside their own forums.
I was arguing that CDPR stayed true to the character and didn't make Geralt sleep around just for kicks (which, again, he does a total of 5 times in both games if the player decides to)
The complaint was not meant for you but your post was an excellent segway for people who were complaining that Geralt's womanizing is somehow a problem.
What neo-Puritan views are you on about? No one here has suggested any puritanical views. You are making a false equivocation between objections to objectification of women and sex negative views. Once again, you are showing a lack of subtlety in your understanding of subjects you rant about. I happen to be sex positive and against objectification of women. Shocked those views can coexist, right? What you think you know about feminism appears to be informed by ignorant MRA types that don't understand the topic.Once again, its not about the women. Its about the anti-sex, neo-Puritans, cultural authoritarian censorship that are ruining game. You just happen to be a woman. You can be a lizard or a whale for all I care and if you are anti-sex, neo-Puritans, cultural authoritarian censor, then you are ruining gaming. You are no different from people at Fox News, from crazy Puritans and from Muslim fundamentalists.
Which developers ? Bioware ? The developer that has pretty much lost most of its important people who have left the company and is now pushing out offline MMOs ? Beamdog ? The folks who got so much criticism that they were forced to explain their transgender character a lot better.
Developers who pander to the kind of people who promote this unhealthy neo-Puritan mentality are usually the ones that no one really cares about outside their own forums.
The complaint was not meant for you but your post was an excellent segway for people who were complaining that Geralt's womanizing is somehow a problem.
What neo-Puritan views are you on about? No one here has suggested any puritanical views. You are making a false equivocation between objections to objectification of women and sex negative views. Once again, you are showing a lack of subtlety in your understanding of subjects you rant about. I happen to be sex positive and against objectification of woman. Shocked those views can coexist, right? What you think you know about feminism appears to be informed by ignorant MRA types that don't understand the topic.
Objectification of fictional sorceresses who wear the clothing they wear because they want to ? No, really, the sorceresses in Witcher universe wear the clothing they wear because they like to wear them, not because men force them to do it. Unless if you somehow think that men force women to wear clothing that is easy on men's eyes and lesbian's eyes.
The sorceresses in Witcher universe are presented as very self-centered, overconfident, arrogant, narrow-minded and narcissistic due to the belief in their own might. What they do and what they wear reflect that.
The reason for this is because sorceresses think that being magical puts them in higher class than any other human or elf, that they are destined for higher deeds. Becoming a sorceress means you mastered a sublime skill of controlling magic and it took your whole childhood that others spent playing and having fun. Additionally, sorceress can live very long lives while looking perpetually youthful and beautiful due to magic. Additionally, many sorceresses and sorcerers were social rejects who were abused, poor and left to die as kids before they were taken by other sorceresses and sorcerers for magical training. So I am not going to complain about objectification if they choose to flaunt themselves.
As for why its sorceress, its because magic in Witcher universe can be mastered more intuitively and easily by women. There are sorcerers but they are rare and many of them died during the Thanned Coup:- http://witcher.wikia...ki/Thanedd_coup
Triss Merigold is typically the nicest of the sorceress and even she says something like this:- "The guards used to bow before us, now we flee the city like rats." The more power hungry ones like Phillpa Eilhart is far worse. As for sorcerers, here's Vilgerfortz :- "The nature does not have the knowledge of the philosophical thought, Geralt of Rivia. Us, mages, can and have to do whatever we can to comprehend it's gentle threads...And then it shows us it's power..."
Not all of them are like that but Mages in Witcher universe are primarily portrayed as power hungry narcissist individuals, that's just the lore. Their clothing, their demeanor and their attitude just reflect that. If you want a Thedosian equivalent, powerful sorcerers in Witcher universe are like Tevinter mages.
So who is the ignorant one lacking context now ? At least I know why sorceresses in Witcher universe are portrayed the way they are. Its not "muh objectification" or "muh soggy knees", its just lore.
Strange how this "sex-positivity" only ever applies to female characters.
Nonsense. Have men ever raised a question or made a fuss about what fictional men wore and how fictional men were portrayed ? Do men care that overwhelming majority of fictional male protagonists are very buff and muscular and tall ? Nope. Do we care if fictional male protagonist didn't wear their shirt or whatever ? Nope.
Only anti-sex Neo Puritans care about these things.
Objectification of fictional sorceresses who wear the clothing they wear because they want to ? The sorceresses in Witcher universe are presented as very self-centered, overconfident, arrogant, narrow-minded and narcissistic due to the belief in their own might. What they do and what they wear reflect that.
The reason for this is because sorceresses think that being magical puts them in higher class than any other human or elf, that they are destined for higher deeds. Becoming a sorceress means you mastered a sublime skill of controlling magic and it took your whole childhood that others spent playing and having fun. Additionally, sorceress can live very long lives while looking perpetually youthful and beautiful due to magic. As a result, they tend to follow pure logic and cold calculation.
As for why its sorceress, its because magic in Witcher universe can be mastered more intuitively and easily by women. There are sorcerers but they are rare and many of them died during the Thanned Coup:- http://witcher.wikia...ki/Thanedd_coup
Triss Merigold is typically the nicest of the sorceress and even she says something like this:- "The guards used to bow before us, now we flee the city like rats." The more power hungry ones like Phillpa Eilhart is far worse. As for sorcerers, here's Vilgerfortz :- "The nature does not have the knowledge of the philosophical thought, Geralt of Rivia. Us, mages, can and have to do whatever we can to comprehend it's gentle threads...And then it shows us it's power..."
Not all of them are like that but Mages in Witcher universe are primarily portrayed as power hungry narcissist individuals, that's just the lore. Their clothing, their demeanor and their attitude just reflect that. If you want a Thedosian equivalent, powerful sorcerers in Witcher universe are like Tevinter mages.
So who is the ignorant one lacking context now ? At least I know why sorceresses in Witcher universe are portrayed the way they are. Its not "muh objectification" or "muh soggy knees", its just lore.
You are aware the Witcher is not real right? That the women do not "choose" to wear anything? It's designed and written by people? And was conveniently designed and written in a way that just so happened to objectify all the female characters? And none of the male ones? And this just so conveniently happens to be the case in a lot of other fantasy worlds?
Nonsense. Have men ever raised a question or made a fuss about what fictional men wore and how fictional men were portrayed ? Do men care that overwhelming majority of fictional male protagonists are very buff and muscular and tall ? Nope. Do we care if fictional male protagonist didn't wear their shirt or whatever ? Nope.
Only anti-sex Neo Puritans care about these things.
Please point me in the direction of these fantasy worlds that have all have sexy men running around naked wanting to have sex all the time? Seriously, where are these?
Buff + muscular men are designed to appeal to men, not women. They are power fantasies, not sex fantasies.
Objectification of fictional sorceresses who wear the clothing they wear because they want to ? The sorceresses in Witcher universe are presented as very self-centered, overconfident, arrogant, narrow-minded and narcissistic due to the belief in their own might. What they do and what they wear reflect that.
The reason for this is because sorceresses think that being magical puts them in higher class than any other human or elf, that they are destined for higher deeds. Becoming a sorceress means you mastered a sublime skill of controlling magic and it took your whole childhood that others spent playing and having fun. Additionally, sorceress can live very long lives while looking perpetually youthful and beautiful due to magic. As a result, they tend to follow pure logic and cold calculation.
As for why its sorceress, its because magic in Witcher universe can be mastered more intuitively and easily by women. There are sorcerers but they are rare and many of them died during the Thanned Coup:- http://witcher.wikia...ki/Thanedd_coup
Triss Merigold is typically the nicest of the sorceress and even she says something like this:- "The guards used to bow before us, now we flee the city like rats." The more power hungry ones like Phillpa Eilhart is far worse. As for sorcerers, here's Vilgerfortz :- "The nature does not have the knowledge of the philosophical thought, Geralt of Rivia. Us, mages, can and have to do whatever we can to comprehend it's gentle threads...And then it shows us it's power..."
Not all of them are like that but Mages in Witcher universe are primarily portrayed as power hungry narcissist individuals, that's just the lore. Their clothing, their demeanor and their attitude just reflect that. If you want a Thedosian equivalent, powerful sorcerers in Witcher universe are like Tevinter mages.
So who is the ignorant one lacking context now ? At least I know why sorceresses in Witcher universe are portrayed the way they are. Its not "muh objectification" or "muh soggy knees", its just lore.
Yes, but all these fictional women are written by someone, typically male writers in video games, that choose to depict her that way. There isn't a real woman there choosing how to dress. There is a person behind the scenes making those choices for these characters and often writing justifications for those choices as well. The character could be written in endless ways but we too often see her sexualized to the point of being a cliche. The overwhelming majority of women in video games are given this treatment and it's a problem.
Please point me in the direction of these fantasy worlds that have all have sexy men running around naked wanting to have sex all the time? Seriously, where are these?
Buff + muscular men are designed to appeal to men, not women. They are power fantasies, not sex fantasies.
You are aware the Witcher is not real right? That the women do not "choose" to wear anything? It's designed and written by people? And was conveniently designed and written in a way that just so happened to objectify all the female characters? And none of the male ones? And this just so conveniently happens to be the case in a lot of other fantasy worlds?
The Witcher is not real so it should be taken seriously. Secondly, the Witcher is a series of books that was adapted into a video game franchise.
So, according to your logic, Dorian did not choose to be gay because he was written that way and Krem did not choose to be a transgender because she was written that way ? I mean that is what you are saying right because to you, the sorceresses do not choose to wear anything because they were written that way ? Seriously, based on the logic you two are spouting out, Dorian and Krem are written by a male writer so Dorian's homosexuality is not real and Krem's transgenderism is not real ? So next time I will use Abyss108 and maia0407 as the sources when I tell people that Krem's transgenderism and Dorian's homosexuality is not real.
The men in the Witcher universe, important ones at least, are tall, buff and strong. That is objectification unless if you are employing double standards, which you are. Besides, how do you know that this is strictly a male fantasy ? By that logic, shouldn't your claim of female objectification be seen as the sigh of female fantasy ? What evidence do you have to back the claim that male objectification is a male power fantasy but female objectification is not female power fantasy ?
So what if its the case in a lot of other fantasy worlds ? Elves are attractive & magical, Dwarves are stocky stout folks - That's a recurring fantasy theme to the point of being a cliche. Likewise, portraying male protagonists as buff, strong, tall white knighting p*ssy beggars who would do anything to save the girl is a recurring theme to the point of being a cliche and a very disgustingly pathetic cliche at that. Why are these things not an issue but female objectification is ?
The character could be written in endless ways ? So you go and write your story, make your game and draw your comic. Why tell these artists how they should write or code ?
Lastly, why is the portrayal of women in video games is a problem ? You sound like Sarkeesian and she is full of crap. What about Femshep or Jill Valentine or Bayonetta or female Warden or Ciri ?
Yes, but all these fictional women are written by someone, typically male writers in video games, that choose to depict her that way. There isn't a real woman there choosing how to dress. There is a person behind the scenes making those choices for these characters and often writing justifications for those choices as well. The character could be written in endless ways but we too often see her sexualized to the point of being a cliche. The overwhelming majority of women in video games are given this treatment and it's a problem.
That its so exclusively prominent can be a problem.
What makes it complicated is that, as you suggest, the individual instances are not the problem, but the aggregate. So how does one then critique individual instances?
The Witcher is not real so it should be taken seriously. Secondly, the Witcher is a series of books that was adapted into a video game franchise.
So, according to your logic, Dorian did not choose to be gay because he was written that way and Krem did not choose to be a transgender because she was written that way ? I mean that is what you are saying right because to you, the sorceresses do not choose to wear anything because they were written that way ? Seriously, based on the logic you two are spouting out, Dorian and Krem are written by a male writer so Dorian's homosexuality is not real and Krem's transgenderism is not real ?
The men in the Witcher universe, important ones at least, are tall, buff and strong. That is objectification unless if you are employing double standards, which you are. Besides, how do you know that this is strictly a male fantasy ? By that logic, shouldn't your claim of female objectification be seen as the sigh of female fantasy ? What evidence do you have to back the claim that male objectification is a male power fantasy but female objectification is not female power fantasy ?
So what if its the case in a lot of other fantasy worlds. Elves are attractive & magical, Dwarves are stocky stout folks - That's a recurring fantasy theme to the point of being a cliche. Likewise, portraying men as buff, strong, tall white knighting p*ssy beggars who would do anything to save the girl is a recurring theme to the point of being a cliche and a very pathetic cliche at that. Why are these things not an issue but female objectification is ?
The character could be written in endless ways ? So you go and write your story, make your game and draw your comic. Why tell these artists how they should write or code ?
Lastly, why is the portrayal of women in video games is a problem ? You sound like Sarkeesian and she is full of crap. What about Femshep or Jill Valentine or Bayonetta or female Warden or Ciri ?
1 - No Dorian did not choose to be gay, and Krem did not choose to be transexual even if we ignore that those are not "choices" even in real life for a second. They were written that way. How is this even up for discussion? 
Fantasy stories are not real, these are not real people.
2 - The male characters are designed to appeal to men. If the men were designed for sex appeal to appeal to women, there would be no problem.
3 - I'd say all male characters being big buff manly-men is also an issue.
4 - So now we aren't allowed to criticise things unless we make our own games? Guess 99% of game reviewers are out of a job then. Nobody can have an opinion on something they haven't created anything. And why does this only apply to women? Women should have to "make their own game" to get something they want, but men don't? Most of the men who play these games haven't made their own. Also - I am making my own game thank you very much.
5 - Ah, of course, you can name 5 "good" female characters, let's all go home, sexism is over! 
1 - No Dorian did not choose to be gay, and Krem did not choose to be transexual even if we ignore that those are not "choices" even in real life for a second. They were written that way. How is this even up for discussion?
2 - The male characters are designed to appeal to men. If the men were designed for sex appeal to appeal to women, there would be no problem.
3 - I'd say all male characters being big buff manly-men is also an issue.
4 - So now we aren't allowed to criticise things unless we make our own games? Guess 99% of game reviewers are out of a job then. Nobody can have an opinion on something they haven't created anything. And why does this only apply to women? Women should have to "make their own game" to get something they want, but men don't? Most of the men who play these games haven't made their own. Also - I am making my own game thank you very much.
5 - Ah, of course, you can name 5 "good" female characters, let's all go home, sexism is over!
1) If Dorian and Krem are written that way, then sorceresses in the Witcher universe are written to prefer certain types of clothing due to their character, not because of some evil oppressive patriarchy or misogyny or what have you. Consistency matters.
2) Male characters and female characters are designed to appeal to both men and women. Unless if you are a sexist and employ a form of double standard to believe otherwise. Also, you have no evidence to prove that male characters are strictly designed for men.
3) Your criticism stops being criticism when it seeks to censor and to remove content under the guise of vacuous things such as supposed objectification of fictional characters.
4) We already have studies that shows games do not cause violence and sexism so your point that sexism exist is simply a segway for you to impose your censorship onto video games.
@bayonet: I don't think anyone's anti-sex here, just anti-sexism.
The porn scenes I was talking about were offensive not because they featured sex, but because they were obviously designed exclusively for a male audience. In the scene with Keira, for example, the camera focuses only on Keira and her breasts. Why wouldn't they show Geralt as well? Isn't he part of the experience? But ok, I know what the developers had in mind when they designed that scene (which is used as a repeatable scene with the prostitutes). The thing is, it's just one more example of the sexism in the game.
I've lost heads and tails of what this thread is supposed to be about.
I dunno. I have booze, if that helps.
Okay, so, it's taken until now for me to have the opportunity to respond to this, and maybe the boat has long since moved on, but what the hell...
Speaking as someone familiar with the tabletop RPG this game is based on, there's some background information that isn't being presented in that vid that would add a lot of context to it. Though, watching it again, a lot of it is there already.
In the setting having cybernetics brings on a psychological condition known as cyberpsychosis, which makes sufferers feel alienated and dehumanised, more machine than human, the more they replace parts of themselves with implants. This sometimes culminates in individuals suffering a psychotic break and going on a destructive killing spree. When that happens a special police unit is called in, generally known as the cyberpsycho unit or "max tac", to deal with them. Usually with excessive force - this is a cyberpunk dystopia, after all.
So the "geared up men" (some of whom might be women, it's hard to tell with the armour and helmets) are the police, as is pretty clear from all the POLICE written across everything. The news broadcast bit makes it clear they have apprehended a suspect in a massacre - the woman. The bodies? Her victims. She's had plenty of agency up to this point, apparently, of the murderous variety, judging by all the blood on her blades, and is very seriously augmented herself if she's literally bulletproof.
So no, she's not a victim, unfairly oppressed by nasty nasty men, she's a crazed killer being taken out by the police. And she's certainly not "frozen in place, almost in shock" because the whole scene is frozen except for the slow moving bullets. The only moving things, in fact, are the bullets and laser scan-y thing from the flying police car.
None of that specifically excuses the choices of scanty clothing or the posture, though, but maybe it would have worked (a tiny little bit) better had she looked "defeated but defiant" like a cornered murderous crazy instead of impassive and vulnerable (as vulnerable as a bulletproof cyborg killer can be, anyway) - maybe she's gone all "emotionless cyber killer" or something, I don't know. Could definitely have done with her looking more animated instead of blank, I would say.
I think the pose is also something of a homage to a piece of art from the original 1988 RPG, which also appears in an advert in the scene.
As for why we see her apparently with the max tac guy in some vehicle or other, I've no clue. We don't even know if that's before or after the main scene. I assume it's a bit of intrigue-ment intended to hook interest. Which it certainly has. Maybe she's the protagonist? Or a possible one, and the bloke is the other possibility? Or maybe it's just a teaser unrelated to the plot of the game. No idea.
Thanks for the clarifcation, but like I said earlier, we should look at why the devs chose to advertise the game that way. Why is it a woman who is shown in sexualised, vunerable poses? If she's powerful and dangerous then let her look powerful and dangerous.
Why is this a problem ? Geralt is a mutant and a social outcast. Only the delusional would think that somehow Geralt's action will turn men everywhere into horndogs. Reality check - They don't.
Fyi, Celene slept with and f*cked Briala while she did horrible things to her family and to the Elves. Leliana f*cked clients and sometimes killed them. Isable f*cked around so hard that she had to go to a Spirit Healer to cure her STDs.
Somehow no complaints there. Oh wait, those are women, Geralt is a white male. So its muh privilege
I mean, looking at some of the responses in this thread, its like people want female characters and homosexual characters with no flaws, female characters that will wear what these people dictate them to wear and how these people dictate them to present themselves because otherwise its muh soggy knees and bad representation.
Story be damned. Characters be damned. Consistency be damned. What we want is cultural authoritarianism and censorship.
Dude, loads of people have complained about all of those.
And the issue is the if the writers are treating the women as objects, rather than characters in their own right.
Objectification of fictional sorceresses who wear the clothing they wear because they want to ? No, really, the sorceresses in Witcher universe wear the clothing they wear because they like to wear them, not because men force them to do it. Unless if you somehow think that men force women to wear clothing that is easy on men's eyes and lesbian's eyes.
The sorceresses in Witcher universe are presented as very self-centered, overconfident, arrogant, narrow-minded and narcissistic due to the belief in their own might. What they do and what they wear reflect that.
The reason for this is because sorceresses think that being magical puts them in higher class than any other human or elf, that they are destined for higher deeds. Becoming a sorceress means you mastered a sublime skill of controlling magic and it took your whole childhood that others spent playing and having fun. Additionally, sorceress can live very long lives while looking perpetually youthful and beautiful due to magic. Additionally, many sorceresses and sorcerers were social rejects who were abused, poor and left to die as kids before they were taken by other sorceresses and sorcerers for magical training. So I am not going to complain about objectification if they choose to flaunt themselves.
As for why its sorceress, its because magic in Witcher universe can be mastered more intuitively and easily by women. There are sorcerers but they are rare and many of them died during the Thanned Coup:- http://witcher.wikia...ki/Thanedd_coup
Triss Merigold is typically the nicest of the sorceress and even she says something like this:- "The guards used to bow before us, now we flee the city like rats." The more power hungry ones like Phillpa Eilhart is far worse. As for sorcerers, here's Vilgerfortz :- "The nature does not have the knowledge of the philosophical thought, Geralt of Rivia. Us, mages, can and have to do whatever we can to comprehend it's gentle threads...And then it shows us it's power..."
Not all of them are like that but Mages in Witcher universe are primarily portrayed as power hungry narcissist individuals, that's just the lore. Their clothing, their demeanor and their attitude just reflect that. If you want a Thedosian equivalent, powerful sorcerers in Witcher universe are like Tevinter mages.
So who is the ignorant one lacking context now ? At least I know why sorceresses in Witcher universe are portrayed the way they are. Its not "muh objectification" or "muh soggy knees", its just lore.
Nonsense. Have men ever raised a question or made a fuss about what fictional men wore and how fictional men were portrayed ? Do men care that overwhelming majority of fictional male protagonists are very buff and muscular and tall ? Nope. Do we care if fictional male protagonist didn't wear their shirt or whatever ? Nope.
Only anti-sex Neo Puritans care about these things.
Okay, but the women in the Witcher aren't real. There is a huge difference between a woman dressed in a way she finds empowering and female characters who were created to cater to the male gaze.
And the writers can put as many 'lore reasons' into why the women dress in this way as they want. Those reasons were invented by the writers to justify this.
A great example of this is the Strong Female Characters comic from Hark! A Vagrant.
And the sequel:
Oh good grief. Yes, Dorian and Krem are fictional characters written by real life authors. They are written as gay and transgender but they don't really exist. The sorceress are also fictional characters that are written as dressing in a sexualized way and those characters don't really exist. Now that we have those very very basic facts stipulated and agreed upon can we move on to the actual points being made without detouring back around to obvious land?The Witcher is not real so it should be taken seriously. Secondly, the Witcher is a series of books that was adapted into a video game franchise.
So, according to your logic, Dorian did not choose to be gay because he was written that way and Krem did not choose to be a transgender because she was written that way ? I mean that is what you are saying right because to you, the sorceresses do not choose to wear anything because they were written that way ? Seriously, based on the logic you two are spouting out, Dorian and Krem are written by a male writer so Dorian's homosexuality is not real and Krem's transgenderism is not real ? So next time I will use Abyss108 and maia0407 as the sources when I tell people that Krem's transgenderism and Dorian's homosexuality is not real.
That's the great thing about free markets; I don't have to make all the products I consume. I also get to review and criticize products on the market while deciding where I'll spend my money. Who are you, Mr Authoritarian, to try to silence my views?The character could be written in endless ways ? So you go and write your story, make your game and draw your comic. Why tell these artists how they should write or code ?
We've been over why women's portrayals are often a problem. Read the thread. And notice the qualifier 'often'.Lastly, why is the portrayal of women in video games is a problem ? You sound like Sarkeesian and she is full of crap. What about Femshep or Jill Valentine or Bayonetta or female Warden or Ciri ?
Dude, loads of people have complained about all of those.
And the issue is the if the writers are treating the women as objects, rather than characters in their own right.
Treating them as objects how ? Did the sorceresses not have any agency ? They do. Did the sorceresses not have their own plot or personality ? They do.
@bayonet: I don't think anyone's anti-sex here, just anti-sexism.
The porn scenes I was talking about were offensive not because they featured sex, but because they were obviously designed exclusively for a male audience. In the scene with Keira, for example, the camera focuses only on Keira and her breasts. Why wouldn't they show Geralt as well? Isn't he part of the experience? But ok, I know what the developers had in mind when they designed that scene (which is used as a repeatable scene with the prostitutes). The thing is, it's just one more example of the sexism in the game.
Like you said - Its the same animation as everyone, cost saving measure. If you have to hold up a cost saving measure. Also, its a reference to something:-
From A Time of Contempt:
"Before the Witcher had regained the power of speech, a short, slim sorceress with long, straight, straw-coloured hair came over to him. He recognised her at once–she was the one in the horned agama skin slippers and the green tulle top, which didn’t even cover a minor detail like the small mole above her left breast."
"‘I’m sorry,’ she said, ‘but I have to interrupt your little flirting session, Philippa. Radcliffe and Detmold would like to talk to you for a moment. It’s urgent.’ ‘Well, if it’s like that, I’m coming. Bye, Geralt. We’ll continue our flirting later!’ ‘Ah,’ said the blonde, sizing him up. ‘Geralt. The Witcher, the man Yennefer lost her head over? I’ve been watching you and wondering who you might be. It was tormenting me terribly.’"
"‘I know that kind of torment,’ he replied, smiling politely. ‘I’m experiencing it right now.’ ‘Do excuse the gaffe. I’m Keira Metz.`"
We've been over why women's portrayals are often a problem. Read the thread. And notice the qualifier 'often'.
You imagine that there is a problem when research has shown that video games cause neither sexism nor violence. Your problem is imaginary and does not add up in reality. Deal with it.
The point being made is the writing choices for many women characters made by the authors often leads to the objectification of those characters. Reinforcing stereotypes is bad. Dorian and Krem were inclusive characters and meant to break the trend of not having gay and transgender perspectives in the game. From where I'm standing, that's good.
How do you know that only women characters are objectified ? Have you seen the fetishization for Dorian and Krem around BSN and Tumblr ? So that's okay to you. I for one fail to see why the objectification of fictional character is a problem to begin with. They are not real so objectifying them should not be an issue but you make it into one to push your agenda of control and censorship.
Okay, but the women in the Witcher aren't real. There is a huge difference between a woman dressed in a way she finds empowering and female characters who were created to cater to the male gaze.
And the writers can put as many 'lore reasons' into why the women dress in this way as they want. Those reasons were invented by the writers to justify this.
So because the sorceresses do not fit your narrow world view of what is acceptable for a female character, they somehow promote objectification ? How do you know that the sorceresses clothings were justifications ? Any evidence ?
Now I am beginning to see why more and more women are dropping the label feminism, not identifying as feminists and even becoming anti-feminists. Its because feminism claims to speak for all women yet demean and demonize women, even fictional women, that do not conform to their rigid world view of how a woman must dress and present herself.
You people are not very different from radical Islamists who tell women, even fictional women, that there is only a specific way to present yourself and dress yourself. If you do otherwise, its wrong somehow.
1) If Dorian and Krem are written that way, then sorceresses in the Witcher universe are written to prefer certain types of clothing due to their character, not because of some evil oppressive patriarchy or misogyny or what have you. Consistency matters.
2) Male characters and female characters are designed to appeal to both men and women. Unless if you are a sexist and employ a form of double standard to believe otherwise. Also, you have no evidence to prove that male characters are strictly designed for men.
3) Your criticism stops being criticism when it seeks to censor and to remove content under the guise of vacuous things such as supposed objectification of fictional characters.
4) We already have studies that shows games do not cause violence and sexism so your point that sexism exist is simply a segway for you to impose your censorship onto video games.
1 - So what you are saying is writing can never be criticised. Earlier you were posting about how a transexual character in Balder's Gate was criticised. Same way people can criticise Dorian and Krem if they think they are badly written. Same way I can criticise the way other female characters are written. Or male characters, or any other character.
2 - So by this logic - where are you getting your evidence that they appeal to women? All I can see if you arguing against numerous women who say they don't appeal to them.
3 - Please please please point to one place where I have "censored" anyone? Please? I am honestly curious? Please specifically post where.
4 - Where did I ever say this either? You are making up imaginary arguments because you can't actually counter the things I have actually said. I never said this will "cause" violence or sexism. You've got it backwards, it's sexism that causes all the female characters to be written to be scantly clad, whilst all the male characters get to be badasses.
Treating them as objects how ? Did the sorceresses not have any agency ? They do. Did the sorceresses not have their own plot or personality ? They do.
Like you said - Its the same animation as everyone, cost saving measure. If you have to hold up a cost saving measure. Also, its a reference to something:-
You imagine that there is a problem when research has shown that video games cause neither sexism nor violence. Your problem is imaginary and does not add up in reality. Deal with it.
How do you know that only women characters are objectified ? Have you seen the fetishization for Dorian and Krem around BSN and Tumblr ? So that's okay to you. I for one fail to see why the objectification of fictional character is a problem to begin with. They are not real so objectifying them should not be an issue but you make it into one to push your agenda of control and censorship.
So because the sorceresses do not fit your narrow world view of what is acceptable for a female character, they somehow promote objectification ? How do you know that the sorceresses clothings were justifications ? Any evidence ?
Thanks for the clarifcation, but like I said earlier, we should look at why the devs chose to advertise the game that way. Why is it a woman who is shown in sexualised, vunerable poses? If she's powerful and dangerous then let her look powerful and dangerous.
I get your point. There's not really a good reason for it - I shouldn't think that she knows that guy is stood behind her, and she's literally bulletproof, so she probably has more reason to look defiant and dangerous than defeated. I guess it's "just" the usual reflexive tendency to unavoidably pose female characters that way that we see everywhere. It doesn't necessarily make the devs (or whoever actually designed the look of the teaser) bad people, it just makes them a bit lazy and unaware that it's a problem.
I think the point sought here is that it isn't a bad thing for women to be sexualized in portrayals, the problem is that there isn't a greater variety of portrayals (Incidently, I don't think TW3 had this particular problem with variety, but whatever)
However, Bayonet feels that what is being suggested is that women should never be portrayed in a sexual manner nor het-male sexuality catered to ever.
Not really much we can do if he's going to invent arguments no one has posted.
1 - So what you are saying is writing can never be criticised. Earlier you were posting about how a transexual character in Balder's Gate was criticised. Same way people can criticise Dorian and Krem if they think they are badly written. Same way I can criticise the way other female characters are written. Or male characters, or any other character.
2 - So by this logic - where are you getting your evidence that they appeal to women? All I can see if you arguing against numerous women who say they don't appeal to them.
3 - Please please please point to one place where I have "censored" anyone? Please? I am honestly curious? Please specifically post where.
4 - Where did I ever say this either? You are making up imaginary arguments because you can't actually counter the things I have actually said. I never said this will "cause" violence or sexism. You've got it backwards, it's sexism that causes all the female characters to be written to be scantly clad, whilst all the male characters get to be badasses.
1) You are not criticizing the sorceresses for how they are written, you are criticizing them for what they are wearing.
2) A few women on a single topic in a single sub-forum versus women elsewhere ? I will take my chances. Especially given that BSN is SJW haven.
3) You want to not have fictional women wear what they want to because in your mind, its sexism. That is censorship.
4) Sexism does not cause female characters to be written the way they are. By that logic, homophobia is responsible for the creation of Halward Pavus, total disregard for life is responsible for the creation of Solas, terrorist desires is responsible for the creation Dragon Age 2 Anders, evil manipulative female behavior is responsible for the creation of Morrigan in Dragon Age Origins and religious conservatism is responsible for the creation of Cassandra.
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