477 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

So only your enjoyment matters?

 

What a lot of this thread has been pointing out is that women (and gay people.  And trans people) also want to enjoy games.  And that means having less content that feels like it's geared towards just the enjoyment of straight men.

 

And what I said was the women are not real and therefore have no say in what they wear.  And the lore of the world they live in isn't real and therefore any justifications for why they dress like that are created by the men who desgined their outfits.

 

And that means that your claims of 'well the women are dressing how they want' make no sense - because the women are not choosing to wear anything.

 

What many of us are trying to point out is that we should question why these tropes and desgins are the standard.

 

They are. Look at TW3 forums and the TW3 subreddit. There are plenty of homosexuals and women who enjoy TW3 or other video games for that matter.

 

Tropes are tropes. They are neither bad nor good. Additionally, TW3's tropes are designed to follow Polish mythology. Sorceresses' oppression by the Eternal Fire is the witch hunts by medieval Christianity for example.

 

Please someone save me,i'm dying for the laughing.

 

The designers really were drunk when they made that choice..... she need to be  recognizable like superman with the iconic dress

(the same dress after 10 years)!

 

Morrigan is a mage. If we can have Rock Armor and Arcane Shield I am sure there is spell to regulate body temperature. She is, after all, taught by Mythal and lived in a forest so I can see how she might know survival oriented spells.

[Abyss108]

I think a lot of argument and backlash on this issue is generated by the perceived demonization of hetero-male sexuality, which generates a lot of the frustration and vitriol Bayonet is currently demonstrating for us.

I think some important questions to answer would be about how and if male sexuality (Or any sexuality for that matter) can be catered to without objectifying the object of attraction. We all internally objectify people everytime we admire another person's body or see them solely in terms of a role we expect them to perform. Second, if objectification is unavoidable while catering to sexuality, what if not all is actually harmful?

 

I don't think anybody believes "objectification is bad" as a blanket statement though. I haven't seen anybody post anything that suggests that, so I'm not sure what there is to discuss there... We seem to be in agreement unless I have missed something. 

[Rel Fexive]

And what I said was the women are not real and therefore have no say in what they wear.  And the lore of the world they live in isn't real and therefore any justifications for why they dress like that are created by the men who desgined their outfits.

 

Best example would be Quiet in MGS5.  Sure, there's a really good reason for why she has to go practically naked all the time, but you know they came up with the reason after "designing" the "costume".

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I think a lot of argument and backlash on this issue is generated by the perceived demonization of hetero-male sexuality, which generates a lot of the frustration and vitriol Bayonet is currently demonstrating for us.

I think some important questions to answer would be about how and if male sexuality (Or any sexuality for that matter) can be catered to without objectifying the object of attraction. We all internally objectify people everytime we admire another person's body or see them solely in terms of a role we expect them to perform. Second, if objectification is unavoidable while catering to sexuality, what if not all objectification is actually harmful?

 

Objectification is the reduction of people to objects and things. No one does that unless they are exacting cruelty and blind worship onto someone else or unless they are Machiavellian.

 

Only feminists would think that men reduce women into literal sex objects and nothing else. I mean, men do reduce real women into literal sex objects and brood mares, but only if you go to the Middle East or Africa or some extremely conservative environment.

 

Otherwise, if you are in the Western world, or other civilized parts of the world, it does not happen but I doubt you would see them speaking out against those men. Nay, its the straight white men and their fictional creations that they will attack and demonize. Smh. Go figure. 

[Heimdall]

I don't think anybody believes "objectification is bad" as a blanket statement though. I haven't seen anybody post anything that suggests that, so I'm not sure what there is to discuss there... We seem to be in agreement unless I have missed something.

We are, I was speaking generally. I just personally think modern feminism, especially in video game criticism, has an image problem (No thanks to some radicals), and that steps need to be taken to reassure people like Bayonet that feminism isn't attacking men or condemning hetero-male sexual desire.

[General TSAR]

Buff + muscular men are designed to appeal to men, not women. They are power fantasies, not sex fantasies.

Those are some awesome double standards. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Her clothes in the artbook showed her with actual sleeves and also a fur hood.

 

I just want to give her a blanket and something hot to drink.

One of these two?! 

http://images6.fanpo...7-1004-1820.png

https://s-media-cach...76ed5d87244.jpg

[Almostfaceman]

[Illyria]

One of these two?! 

http://images6.fanpo...7-1004-1820.png

https://s-media-cach...76ed5d87244.jpg

 

Yeah, they're both from the artbook.

[Illyria]

They are. Look at TW3 forums and the TW3 subreddit. There are plenty of homosexuals and women who enjoy TW3 or other video games for that matter.

 

Tropes are tropes. They are neither bad nor good. Additionally, TW3's tropes are designed to follow Polish mythology. Sorceresses' oppression by the Eternal Fire is the witch hunts by medieval Christianity for example.

 

 

Morrigan is a mage. If we can have Rock Armor and Arcane Shield I am sure there is spell to regulate body temperature. She is, after all, taught by Mythal and lived in a forest so I can see how she might know survival oriented spells.

 

And you've said that the women here don't speak for all women, so now you're claiming that these women do?

 

Best example would be Quiet in MGS5.  Sure, there's a really good reason for why she has to go practically naked all the time, but you know they came up with the reason after "designing" the "costume".

 

Exactly.  It's impractical gear for a fighter.  If she can only breath through her skin give her a sports bra/cropped top and a pair of shorts.

[Rel Fexive]

Objectification is the reduction of people to objects and things. No one does that unless they are exacting cruelty and blind worship onto someone else or unless they are Machiavellian.

 

Only feminists would think that men reduce women into literal sex objects and nothing else. I mean, men do reduce real women into literal sex objects and brood mares, but only if you go to the Middle East or Africa or some extremely conservative environment.

 

Otherwise, if you are in the Western world, or other civilized parts of the world, it does not happen but I doubt you would see them speaking out against those men. Nay, its the straight white men and their fictional creations that they will attack and demonize. Smh. Go figure. 

 

Not even I am this ****** clueless.

[Abyss108]

Those are some awesome double standards. 

 

 

How? My standards are "make everyone sexy or no one". Same standard. What's a double standard is "women get to be sexy and men get to be powerful".

[Sylvianus]

So, I should just read novels instead of playing games? Women should just not have content in an entire medium?

 

If I had options between games that were objectifying women and games that were objectifying men, there wouldn't be an issue. The issue isn't that certain games have objectified women - objectification can be fine in certain cases. It's the fact that it's always the women who are objectified, and us women don't get the option of just "buy another game designed to appeal to you".

 

 I'm just going to forget your first sentence, because there, you are just arguing with yourself, I'm not interested to debate over things I haven't said or you misunderstood. 

 

The thing is the witcher 3 is a game designed for male audience with a straight dude and his POV. Most women who played TW3 and liked the game were smart enough and aknowlegded that, and while they might have been disappointed to not have seen the assets of Geralt in the sex scene, they understood why it didn't happen. And didn't think sexism. They just understood the point of an audience being targeted regardless of the demographic to sell a lot. 

 

If I see a serie tv with a female audience in mind, I'm not going to complain that the guy showed everything, not the girl. Like for example the Cullen scene in DA:I. I like how Cullen is naked, but the inquisitor is totally dressed. Yep, yep, yep.    Obviously, the female audience was exclusively targetted. Don't you think it's exactly the same there ? There, the principle is okay I suppose ? 

 

___

 

You have games like Dragon age, Mass effect. There are not that many games with romances and especially with sex scenes. People sometime speak as if it were everywhere; it's not. I play a lot of games on console, I have hardly seen sex scenes except in Bioware's and witcher games. 

 

i understand your point of view and I agree that we should see variety. Didn't argue against that. i'm just not understanding those who say that targetting an audience is sexist. it's not. 

[General TSAR]

How? My standards are "make everyone sexy or no one". Same standard. What's a double standard is "women get to be sexy and men get to be powerful".

 

The BS claim that buff/muscular men are solely power fantasies and not at all sexual fantasies.

[Abyss108]

We are, I was speaking generally. I just personally think modern feminism, especially in video game criticism, has an image problem (No thanks to some radicals), and that steps need to be taken to reassure people like Bayonet that feminism isn't attacking men or condemning hetero-male sexual desire.

 

And I'd say the image problem is due to those men who invent arguments no one has said. We have all quite clearly posted that we don't believe anything like that. I don't really see the point in trying to reassure people who prefer to make things up rather than actually read what was written or assume that women are a hive mind and because some random women on a completely different site said something stupid, all women believe that. 

[General TSAR]

Best example would be Quiet in MGS5.  Sure, there's a really good reason for why she has to go practically naked all the time, but you know they came up with the reason after "designing" the "costume".

Yeah Quiet was a bit...eh.

 

It also didn't help when she was obnoxiously posing in the ACC: "Quiet! Get your ass out of my face, I'm trying to listen to Huey getting his ass kicked!"

[Bayonet Hipshot]

We are, I was speaking generally. I just personally think modern feminism, especially in video game criticism, has an image problem (No thanks to some radicals), and that steps need to be taken to reassure people like Bayonet that feminism isn't attacking men or condemning hetero-male sexual desire.

 

Actually, they don't need to take steps. I know this is very off topic but I have to address this :- I know full well that feminism is a man-hating movement. It stopped being a gender equality movement when the second wave ended.

 

Feminist lobby against law criminalizing rape of men by women:- http://www.jpost.com...women-with-rape

 

Feminist lobby for the end of men's liberation groups on campus:- http://therightsofma...ens-officer.pdf

 

Feminist led charities and groups defeat the efforts to introduce shared parenting:- http://www.childrens...enting_response ; http://nomoremisandr...t-powerful.html

 

Feminist suppress medical professionals who want to speak for male health:- https://np.reddit.co...d_cardiologist/

 

Feminists lie about the pay gap, which has been debunked for the umpteenth time. Feminist also lie about campus rape occurrence, the 1 in 5 statistic has been debunked.

 

Feminists are responsible for ruining the lives of men falsely accused of rape instead of upholding the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" premise of modern judiciary:- Duke Lacrosse case, Jian Ghomeshi, etc.

 

Feminists do not give a single f*ck about the fact that boys are falling and failing in education due to an education system that favors girls that were instituted by the feminist lobby :- http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0684849577

 

I can keep going on and on but feminism is a misandric movement. To be a feminist in 2016 is to be a man hater.

[Abyss108]

 I'm just going to forget your first sentence, because there, you are just arguing with yourself, I'm not interested to debate over things I haven't said or you misunderstood. 

 

The thing is the witcher 3 is a game designed for male audience with a straight dude and his POV. Most women who played TW3 and liked the game were smart enough and aknowlegded that, and while they might have been disappointed to not have seen the assets of Geralt in the sex scene, they understood why it didn't happen. And didn't think sexism. They just understood the point of an audience being targeted regardless of the demographic to sell a lot. 

 

If I see a serie tv with a female audience in mind, I'm not going to complain that the guy showed everything, not the girl. Like for example the Cullen scene in DA:I. I like how Cullen is naked, but the inquisitor is totally dressed. Yep, yep, yep.     Obviously, the female audience was exclusively targetted. Don't you think it's exactly the same there ? There, the principle is okay I suppose ? 

 

___

 

You have games like Dragon age, Mass effect. There are not that many games with romances and especially with sex scenes. People sometime speak as if it were everywhere; it's not. I play a lot of games on console, I have hardly seen sex scenes except in Bioware's and witcher games. 

 

i understand your point of view and I agree that we should see variety. Didn't argue against that. i'm just not understanding those who say that targetting an audience is sexist. it's not. 

 

Targeting an audience isn't sexist - having the vast vast majority of a medium only target one audience is sexist. It's about portrayal in general. And women are portrayed badly in the vast majority of games. There's nothing wrong with having something like the Witcher, if there are also options like that for women. But there aren't. It's not "this one game isn't designed for you, so play this one that is", it's "these 500 games aren't designed for you so play these 5 and only these 5 that are".

 

The BS claim that buff/muscular men are solely power fantasies and not at all sexual fantasies.

 

 

Ah, my mistake, all us women just don't realise what we find attractive. Thank you for telling us. 

[Lezio]

 

Just about the only thing that i understand about this thread

[Abyss108]

Actually, they don't need to take steps. I know this is very off topic but I have to address this :- I know full well that feminism is a man-hating movement. It stopped being a gender equality movement when the second wave ended.

 

Feminist lobby against law criminalizing rape of men by women:- http://www.jpost.com...women-with-rape

 

Feminist lobby for the end of men's liberation groups on campus:- http://therightsofma...ens-officer.pdf

 

Feminist led charities and groups defeat the efforts to introduce shared parenting:- http://www.childrens...enting_response ; http://nomoremisandr...t-powerful.html

 

Feminist suppress medical professionals who want to speak for male health:- https://np.reddit.co...d_cardiologist/

 

Feminists lie about the pay gap, which has been debunked for the umpteenth time. Feminist also lie about campus rape occurrence, the 1 in 5 statistic has been debunked.

 

Feminists are responsible for ruining the lives of men falsely accused of rape instead of upholding the "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" premise of modern judiciary:- Duke Lacrosse case, Jian Ghomeshi, etc.

 

Feminists do not give a single f*ck about the fact that boys are falling and failing in education due to an education system that favors girls that were instituted by the feminist lobby :- http://www.amazon.co...m/dp/0684849577

 

I can keep going on and on but feminism is a misandric movement. To be a feminist in 2016 is to be a man hater.

 

Well, I'm officially out of this conversation. 

[roselavellan]

 

 

There, i disagree. Be careful. Having something specifically designed for a male audience isn't sexist.  As much as it isnt sexist when something is specifically designed for a female audience, whether in books, novels, magazines, serie tv and other things. There are plenty of examples of objectification of men in media and I never thought,  " oh sexism." . Because I know that it was designed for a female audience  to please their power fantasy. Things that are unlikely to please to a lot of men.  i don't care if I see a lot of naked men in a magazine specifically designed if the goal is to please or to attract straight women and to sell them something, it's not my business. If I see something like that in a serie tv, a video game or a novel, i just move on and see eleswhere what could be more to my tastes. People can enjoy whatever the hell they want and products can try to attract whatever demographic they want. I don't see the issue there. 

 

Geralt is male, the story of a straight while male, you are playing the point of view of a straight white male, in a game designed mostly for a straight white male audience. Complaining about only seeing the asset of the romances is not worth it to me. 

 

If I watch a lesbian serie TV, I'm not going to complain that I rarely see straight people and straight couples. Because  I'm smart enough to understand who is targeted and the point of the serie tv. If it happens, okay, if it never happens, I just don't care. It doesn't need to.

 

 

Porn is a type of media focused solely on the sexual aspects of a woman. Having that in a game already replete with instances of female objectification just adds to the message of sexism. Your example of objectification of men doesn't work because those instances are so rare as to be niche. Even in the DAI example you yourself used, Cullen's romance scene is balanced by Cassandra's romance scene elsewhere in the game.

 

Regarding sexism, I think having a few things designed for a male audience is fine, it's when almost everything is designed purely for the male audience that it becomes an issue.

 

I'm usually in the "live and let live" camp; yes, people can and do enjoy what they want (within a consensual setting, of course). Since TW3 is a major, widely distributed game, now with an audience not limited to straight males, I think the game could have benefited from a bit more balance between the male and female perspective.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Porn is a type of media focused solely on the sexual aspects of a woman. Having that in a game already replete with instances of female objectification just adds to the message of sexism. Your example of objectification of men doesn't work because those instances are so rare as to be niche. Even in the DAI example you yourself used, Cullen's romance scene is balanced by Cassandra's romance scene elsewhere in the game.

 

Regarding sexism, I think having a few things designed for a male audience is fine, it's when almost everything is designed purely for the male audience that it becomes an issue.

 

I'm usually in the "live and let live" camp; yes, people can and do enjoy what they want (within a consensual setting, of course). Since TW3 is a major, widely distributed game, now with an audience not limited to straight males, I think the game could have benefited from a bit more balance between the male and female perspective.

 

So what about all the feminist porn and lesbian porn and gay porn ?

[Heimdall]

And I'd say the image problem is due to those men who invent arguments no one has said. We have all quite clearly posted that we don't believe anything like that. I don't really see the point in trying to reassure people who prefer to make things up rather than actually read what was written or assume that women are a hive mind and because some random women on a completely different site said something stupid, all women believe that.

I'm aware that opinions are diverse, but some radical perspectives have gotten rather large megaphones in recent years. That you don't think they and the reaction to them has created an accurate image doesn't mean that image doesn't need to be counteracted. I've seen a lot of men who don't oppose feminism's goals broadly become very angry and frustrated with what they perceive to be an increasingly anti-male movement. Constantly being dismissed as delusional or misogynist for their concerns has only made them more vitriolic.

It's not that about whether they deserve to be reassured, it's that I think such men would not oppose or possibly even support feminism if they were. In short, I think feminism only makes its job harder by not putting a little more effort into creating a "male-friendly" image.

[Sylvianus]

 

 

Targeting an audience isn't sexist - having the vast vast majority of a medium only target one audience is sexist. It's about portrayal in general. And women are portrayed badly in the vast majority of games. There's nothing wrong with having something like the Witcher, if there are also options like that for women. But there aren't. It's not "this one game isn't designed for you, so play this one that is", it's "these 500 games aren't designed for you so play these 5 and only these 5 that are".

 

 

 

 

I'd say it's legitimate to claim that it's sexist when women are always and only objectified and badly portrayed in a particular video game or most. But not really because a specific audience was being targeted in a franchise personally, regardless of what the majority does. Like not having its candy eyes.

 

Maybe I should start claiming that the video game industry and the media overall is racist because the vast majority of games promotes a white protagonist with a big amount of white npcs. ( I'm just kidding ) 

 

Anyway, I think we want the same thing. I just disagree there. 

[Abyss108]

I'm aware that opinions are diverse, but some radical perspectives have gotten rather large megaphones in recent years. That you don't think they and the reaction to them has created an accurate image doesn't mean that image doesn't need to be counteracted. I've seen a lot of men who don't oppose feminism's goals broadly become very angry and frustrated with what they perceive to be an increasingly anti-male movement. Constantly being dismissed as delusional or misogynist for their concerns has only made them more vitriolic.

It's not that about whether they deserve to be reassured, it's that I think such men would not oppose or possibly even support feminism if they were. In short, I think feminism only makes its job harder by not putting a little more effort into creating a "male-friendly" image.

 

I can't really see someone like Bayonet, who you are trying to reassure, ever supporting feminism. Just look at what he believes it is above. There are people who can be convinced, and there are people who just want to live in their own delusions. The people who just see a bad image and could be convinced generally don't just start making imaginary arguments up. They actually engage in what people have posted.