477 réponses à ce sujet

[Lezio]

It's a desert.

 

Wow, that explains it, thanks

 

Sorry for the sarchasm, but when i say "bare landscape" i'm obviously not talking about trees, elf roots and such

[Lezio]

And people. And creatures. And stories. And fights. And lore. 

 

Hence not "completely bare". 

 

Hence your hyperbole. 

 

I counted one NPC, one fort that really changes nothing in the great scheme of things and a couple of substories that don't even have one line of dialogue and that, again, change nothing in or outside of that area

[Almostfaceman]

I counted one NPC, one fort that really changes nothing in the great scheme of things and a couple of substories that don't even have one line of dialogue and that, again, change nothing in or outside of that area

 

Good for you. Still not completely bare. Still hyperbole. Not that I even agree with your assessment. 

 

The lore that the dwarves had a surface kingdom was interesting and could play a part further along in the story, by the way. 

[vbibbi]

Well... On the one hand as I understand it, all but the highest-up jobs in development tend to be on a contract basis, so they'd've had the opportunity to shift funds to hire the necessary workers, but on the other, the decrease in projected revenues would probably have commensurately affected their budget...

 

I will reiterate, though, as I said earlier in the thread and have said before, that I would've been quite happy with two or three fewer areas to explore, if what was left had been populated with more meaningful content. Basically what I'm saying is that it's a complex web of decisions that led to the game we got, and improvements could probably have come in a variety of different ways. I think to focus in on one in particular is probably to do a disservice to the issues faced.

 

I think the game could have benefited from fewer areas, as well. I know that there were actually more zones planned, like the Nahashin Marshes, so we could also speculate that development time would have been used in finishing these areas rather than fleshing out the current areas or cutting back.

[YourFunnyUncle]

One might argue that this attitude is actually a barrier to those groups in some ways, as creates of them as a "privileged other", self-separated and self-segregated from the norms of society, rather than normalizing their inclusion.

 

And frankly the assumption that all white males are "already in first place", and thus deserve no consideration is not one that helps build bridges.  In regards to college campuses, it also ignores that on many college campuses the public areas hardly exclusive white male dominated spheres where nobody else has a voice, they are not white male exclusive nor white male dominated (Especially since more women than men are attending college in the US at least these days).  I'll admit that, as a white male currently on a modern liberal arts college campus, I like the idea of going to a place where I could talk about my experience with those who share it.  Contrary to popular belief, this is not something white men get by default.  I would ask what the harm would be in having such a place, and I have asked: The answer I received was disconcerting.  Oddly, in defending white students or men not having an exclusive place, I've seen some arguments default to an apparent conviction that any such place would simply become a den of racism and hatred by default, a rather prejudiced viewpoint, and part of disturbing tendency I see to profile white male perspective as inherently tainted by virulent prejudice.

 

My two cents, will stop being off-topic now.

It's overly simplistic, sure, but it's only supposed to be a bit of fun. I certainly don't think that the concept of privilege is the answer to everything, and I do see the disadvantage to separating ourselves too far by identity instead of celebrating our shared humanity. It's just that I see an amazing lack of empathy on display from a certain subset of the people who throw the term "SJW" around as an insult... Anyway, as you say we're going way off topic here.

[Lezio]

Good for you. Still not completely bare. Still hyperbole. Not that I even agree with your assessment. 

 

The lore that the dwarves had a surface kingdom was interesting and could play a part further along in the story, by the way. 

 

That's The Hissing Wastes, you're confusing it for the Western Approach, which is what i was talking about. Irony.

And, by the way, i already stated that The Hissing Wastes is one of the few area that i have no problem with,because it's actually interesting and provides a nice read

[Almostfaceman]

That's The Hissing Wastes, you're confusing it for the Western Approach, which is what i was talking about. Irony.

And, by the way, i already stated that The Hissing Wastes is one of the few area that i have no problem with,because it's actually interesting and provides a nice read

 

It's not ironic it's a misunderstanding. Again, words mean things. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I'm just going to drop this in here apropos of nothing...

Pfff ahhhah you clearly never saw me playing Mario kart online and cheating with thunderbolts and stars at the 1st place.

[Lezio]

It's not ironic it's a misunderstanding. Again, words mean things. 

 

Isn't it ironic that someone who finds the areas intereting doesn't remember which is which?

But then again, you may have just missed the part of my post where i specifically said that amongst the areas i found interesting there was "the one about the Paragon who made a surface city cuz that was actually a nice quest (thanks mostly to Varric's comments)"

[Almostfaceman]

Isn't it ironic that someone who finds the areas intereting doesn't remember which is which?

But then again, you may have just missed the part of my post where i specifically said that amongst the areas i found interesting there was "the one about the Paragon who made a surface city cuz that was actually a nice quest (thanks mostly to Varric's comments)"

 

That would be a failure of memory, not irony. 

 

And your comment was still hyperbole and my argument still applies to any of the areas in Dragon Age Inquisition. None of them are completely bare. 

[SkinVision]

Isn't it fascinating that when women say they don't want to play as male characters and give all sorts of reasons for it, it is perfectly okay, its justifiable, its representation, and its their preference. However, when men, especially men who are white and/or straight, say that they don't want to play as female characters and give all sorts of reasons for it, its misogyny and oppression.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, dude who needs to take an introductionary logic class strikes again.
I assume no one ever explained the difference between abstract and concrete to you. I'll try to help you out with an example.



Written law works on an abstract level.



Imagine a country in which king and beggar both aren’t allowed to sleep on public benches.


From an abstract perspective this law is just. It treats its citizens equal on an abstract level.

 

However, in reality, those citizens aren’t equal. If  you take a closer look - a look at the concrete situation so to speak - you will realize that this law doesn't affect the king at all since he has 20 bedrooms to himself. The beggar on the other hand needs to sleep on the bench because he doesn't even own a single bedroom.
 So while the king possibly doesn’t even realize this law exists the beggar is severely restricted by it and might go to jail because he dared to sleep on a bench.

 


Mind you, I’m not arguing against an abstract concept of justice. Abstract law is necessary because we can't judge every situation individually. In discussions however one should take both sides into account, especially when talking about „double standards“ because the notion of double standards implies that the same rule can be applied to two parties, other wise it wouldn’t be a double standard to treat them differently.


So when you ask how it is possible that women are "allowed" to complain about having to play as a male character while men are not this would indeed be strange if we would live in an ideal world in which men and women were treated completely equal regarding games, meaning 50% of games featuring a male and 50% featuring a female protagonist or 100% of games letting you choose which gender you want to play as.
I suppose you wouldn’t object that this isn't the case. So since there are a lot more games featuring a male protagonist women in this specific situation are more justified to complain.


[ModernAcademic]

This latest tendency of "everything is a social, racial and sexist matter" sucks REAL hard.

Everybody's now automatically repeating a bunch of arguments they find in "influential" blogs, twitter accounts and other media instead of first dissecting and analyzing them with a bit of intelligence coupled with common sense.

Whatever happened to clever and profound observations based on actual knowledge - History, Anthropology, Sociology - rather than sophisms constructed with binary thinking?

[Addictress]

A mod will probably shut this down due to off topic.

But I gotta say, I wish they didn't.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Oh, dude who needs to take an introductionary logic class strikes again.
I assume no one ever explained the difference between abstract and concrete to you. I'll try to help you out with an example.



Written law works on an abstract level.



Imagine a country in which king and beggar both aren’t allowed to sleep on public benches.


From an abstract perspective this law is just. It treats its citizens equal on an abstract level.

 

However, in reality, those citizens aren’t equal. If  you take a closer look - a look at the concrete situation so to speak - you will realize that this law doesn't affect the king at all since he has 20 bedrooms to himself. The beggar on the other hand needs to sleep on the bench because he doesn't even own a single bedroom.
 So while the king possibly doesn’t even realize this law exists the beggar is severely restricted by it and might go to jail because he dared to sleep on a bench.

 


Mind you, I’m not arguing against an abstract concept of justice. Abstract law is necessary because we can't judge every situation individually. In discussions however one should take both sides into account, especially when talking about „double standards“ because the notion of double standards implies that the same rule can be applied to two parties, other wise it wouldn’t be a double standard to treat them differently.


So when you ask how it is possible that women are "allowed" to complain about having to play as a male character while men are not this would indeed be strange if we would live in an ideal world in which men and women were treated completely equal regarding games, meaning 50% of games featuring a male and 50% featuring a female protagonist or 100% of games letting you choose which gender you want to play as.

I suppose you wouldn’t object that this isn't the case. So since there are a lot more games featuring a male protagonist women in this specific situation are more justified to complain.


 

There video game industry is a free market. If there is an equal amount of profit / as much profit to be made by making games with female protagonists as there is by making games with male protagonist, we would have a 50/50 distribution of characters.

 

But the thing is, we don't and the problem for that is simple - Making video games with female protagonist is not as profitable as making video games with male protagonist in them or as profitable as having a protagonist of either sex.

 

Its like cars. Most companies make a family four door sedan or a four door small SUV to sell because that's where the money is at. That is due to the market preference.
 

You cannot expect the market preference to change by simply complaining about it. The only way to change market preference is when the consumer or potential consumer spends enough money or a lot of money that the product manufacturers in question realizes this and then expands their line up.

 

Which means complaining about over-representation of male protagonists in video games is pointlessly futile activity. If you want to have more female protagonist in video games, spend a lot more money in games with female protagonists in them. As much as if not more than the amount of money spent on games with strictly male protagonists in them. Then, you will get your wish for 50/50 distribution of game protagonists.
 

 

This latest tendency of "everything is a social, racial and sexist matter" sucks REAL hard.

Everybody's now automatically repeating a bunch of arguments they find in "influential" blogs, twitter accounts and other media instead of first dissecting and analyzing them with a bit of intelligence coupled with common sense.

Whatever happened to clever and profound observations based on actual knowledge - History, Anthropology, Sociology - rather than sophisms constructed with binary thinking?

 

I play video games to have fun, to challenge myself and to meet new people. I don't play video games to get lectured on by game developers.

 

I mean, who these game developers think they are ? Who does Bioware think they are ? Are they the equivalent of Camille Paglia or Christina Hoff Sommers or Paul R. McHugh ? No. They make video games, they don't do research on gender inequalities or transgenderism what have you. Yet they want to make games with NPCs that spend time to lecture their players.

 

Its a lot like Solas versus Varric when it comes to Cole. Varric is a businessman and an author of fiction yet he somehow has the arrogance to see himself as someone qualified to offer advice on spirits.

 

I wanted my Inquisitor to tell Varric that:- "Varric, you make money and write fiction. You don't study spirits. You are not qualified to make decisions on things you do not understand such as spirits. Which means I will listen to you when it comes to trade, to espionage and wowing the crowds but I am going to listen to Solas on this one "

 

I would like to direct that same comment to Bioware devs:- "Devs, you make video games. You do not spend your time doing any research on social issues you claim to represent. You are not qualified to lecture people on it via your NPCs. So leave the lecturing to the lecturers and focus your time on making a good game instead. I will listen to the lecturers and the researchers on social issues while I will pay attention to you on how to make a game."
 

[maia0407]

Have you ever thought about why more men play video games than women? Do you think there is some inherent difference between men and women that make women less likely to play games? Maybe women don't like a lot of the games made due to the fact that their perspective is ignored. Complaining about that fact and showing that we are willing to purchase games that take our likes into consideration is the perfect way to change the market. In fact, it's already happening. More women are gaming as developers are taking these criticisms seriously. At the same time, we're seeing an uptick in angry ranting from some straight white guys as they see their influence waning.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Have you ever thought about why more men play video games than women? Do you think there is some inherent difference between men and women that make women less likely to play games? Maybe women don't like a lot of the games made due to the fact that their perspective is ignored. Complaining about that fact and showing that we are willing to purchase games that take our likes into consideration is the perfect way to change the market. In fact, it's already happening. More women are gaming as developers are taking these criticisms seriously. At the same time, we're seeing an uptick in angry ranting from some straight white guys as they see their influence waning.

 

I am not a white guy darling. I'm a brown man, but thank you for your interest. I am flattered.

 

Uptick on angry ranting ? You call this angry ?

 

 

Thanks for giving me a good laugh. Are people these days so insulated and sheltered so as to not comprehend what it means when men get angry ?

 

My dear maia0407, when men get genuinely angry, we don't talk. We fight for real, we revolt for real, we get violent for real. You want to look at a group of genuinely angry men who genuinely hate women - Look at ISIS. Or if you want men who are genuinely pissed off - Look at hardcore male criminals. They don't do much talk, they just do violence.

 

So far we are talking and I am having a good laugh. No anger here dear.

 

As for waning influence, why don't we try a thought experiment, eh ? 

 

Let's say all these men, these dudebros decide to just stop buying video games and necessary devices for video games for about a year or two. The video game industry would collapse. MOBAs, MMOs, shooters, etc, they would all go bust. The only exception would be games like Candy Crush, Sims and mobile games.

 

Now if we reverse the situation,  and have women stop buying video games and the necessary devices to play them for about a year or two. Games like mobile games, Candy Crush, Sims and Cake Mania would go out of business. Otherwise, most other game genres will be up and running with a minor hit to their sales.

 

[straykat]

Have you ever thought about why more men play video games than women? Do you think there is some inherent difference between men and women that make women less likely to play games? Maybe women don't like a lot of the games made due to the fact that their perspective is ignored. Complaining about that fact and showing that we are willing to purchase games that take our likes into consideration is the perfect way to change the market. In fact, it's already happening. More women are gaming as developers are taking these criticisms seriously. At the same time, we're seeing an uptick in angry ranting from some straight white guys as they see their influence waning.

 

Yeah, and mobile phones are suddenly big too. Coincidence?

 

I find it hard to believe that so many women are playing the same games. And besides that, the same demographics that boost female gaming numbers suddenly make teenage boys a mere 17%. I find that hard to believe. I think kids stay inside with their passive entertainment far more than I ever did. I don't know ANY kids anymore who are outside at a basketball goal for 6 hours or skateboarding across the whole city, like I was. And many are in bad shape too. What the hell are they doing? Honest question

[maia0407]

I am not a white guy darling. I'm a brown man, but thank you for your interest. I am flattered.

Uptick on angry ranting ? You call this angry ?



My dear maia0407, when men get genuinely angry, we don't talk. We fight for real, we revolt for real, we get violent for real. You want to look at a group of genuinely angry men who genuinely hate women - Look at ISIS. Or if you want men who are genuinely pissed off - Look at hardcore male criminals. They don't do much talk, they just do violence.

As for waning influence, why don't we try a thought experiment, eh ?

Let's say all these men, these dudebros decide to just stop buying video games and necessary devices for video games for about a year or two. The video game industry would collapse. MOBAs, MMOs, shooters, etc, they would all go bust. The only exception would be games like Candy Crush and Sims.

Now if we reverse the situation, and have women stop buying video games and the necessary devices to play them for about a year or two. Games like Candy Crush, Sims and Cake Mania would go out of business. Otherwise, most other game genres will be up and running with a minor hit to their sales.

Dude, calm down. The angry white guy ranting wasn't aimed at you personally although you are guilty of general low level silly male ranting. I'm more talking about the guys threatening people, doxing and swatting them.

You should take your own advice that you feel so qualified to dish out to the developers. You aren't an economist and obviously don't understand how the market works. Waning influence doesn't mean that every male stops buying games. It means that the typical straight white male perspective isn't given the preferential treatment as it was in the past. As more people that were traditionally ignored enter the market due to developers actually listening to them we will see the market grow and that new perspective implemented even more. It's a good thing for most people. Some men just get mad as they are losing their privileged treatment.

[Illyria]

 

I play video games to have fun, to challenge myself and to meet new people. I don't play video games to get lectured on by game developers.

 

This may come as a shock but so do people who aren't you. What you see as 'pandering' (urgh) other people are seeing as 'finally, someone who is like me.  And they're being treated as a person and not a punchline!'

 

Women? They're playing video games.  Trans people?  Also playing video games!  Non-het folk?  Guess what - they're gamers.  Content that does not appeal to you does not automatically mean its bad, or that it's 'lecturing'.
 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Dude, calm down. The angry white guy ranting wasn't aimed at you personally although you are guilty of general low level silly male ranting. I'm more talking about the guys threatening people, doxing and swatting them.

You should take your own advice that you feel so qualified to dish out to the developers. You aren't an economist and obviously don't understand how the market works. Waning influence doesn't mean that every male stops buying games. It means that the typical straight white male perspective isn't given the preferential treatment as it was in the past. As more people that were traditionally ignored enter the market due to developers actually listening to them we will see the market grow and that new perspective implemented even more. It's a good thing for most people. Some men just get mad as they are losing their privileged treatment.

 

Jokes on you. I am doing my dissertation on the history of early modern Singapore with a focus economy and technology. So I can absolutely say things on the free market since early modern Singapore operated with free market principles. Raffles, a straight white male, has his issues, but he was a visionary who was responsible for the birth of Singapore.

 

 

Game developers give preferential treatment to the demographic that gives them the most amount of money, that's how business works.Currently in most game genres except mobile games and games like Sims, its dominated by men, specifically straight men.

 

By the way, what does the typical straight white male perspective even mean ? If it means the male protagonist having sex with women NPCs, we can do that in game. If it means watch female protagonist have sex with female NPCs, we can do that in game as well. If it means having women sexually objectified, we see that in game too. If it means having the female protagonist being dominated by a male NPC, we see that in game too.

 

 

This may come as a shock but so do people who aren't you. What you see as 'pandering' (urgh) other people are seeing as 'finally, someone who is like me.  And they're being treated as a person and not a punchline!'

 

Women? They're playing video games.  Trans people?  Also playing video games!  Non-het folk?  Guess what - they're gamers.  Content that does not appeal to you does not automatically mean its bad, or that it's 'lecturing'.

 

Having NPCs who take a dump on the player character for no reason is lecturing. Iron Bull vfor example, does lecture your protagonist. That's not appealing content because if I wanted to be lectured on, I would visit lecturers and people who give sermons, not game developers.

[straykat]

I can easily understand why women are gamers. Or more to the point, games are appealing in general.

 

What I don't understand is how they're suddenly made out to be the largest demographic.

 

Actually, I do understand why. I'm just leading.

[mrs_anomaly]

No one has said women are the largest demographic of gamers but the gap between the amount of women playing vs men is far less than most want to talk about and I'm not talking about "filthy mobile games" which people LOVE to bring up when it comes to statistics for women vs men playing games. Then if you're talking about this I suppose you would be talking about "core gamers" in terms of which type of gamers you two are referring to. 

 

Now with that said, while I largely respect your opinions Stray and Bayonet. But it's ok if a person says they prefer to play one way or another. Just like you say Bayonet if you prefer playing games with fewer info dumps and more sexy times with the ladies...well spend your money there! 

 

And if I prefer to spend my time and money on games that allow me to be a female PC and has relatively more character depth than a lot of other games than I will spend my efforts on that. 

 

How is this even an argument?

 

 

If the gaming industry wants more money Bayonet they will try to get more and new customers. Obviously alienating a huge portion of their demographic is not wise- nor is ignoring a chunk of us that offer loyalty as well. 

[maia0407]

Jokes on you. I am doing my dissertation on the history of early modern Singapore with a focus economy and technology. So I can absolutely say things on the free market since early modern Singapore operated with free market principles. Raffles, a straight white male, has his issues, but he was a visionary who was responsible for the birth of Singapore.



Game developers give preferential treatment to the demographic that gives them the most amount of money, that's how business works.Currently in most game genres except mobile games and games like Sims, its dominated by men, specifically straight men.

By the way, what does the typical straight white male perspective even mean ? If it means the male protagonist having sex with women NPCs, we can do that in game. If it means watch female protagonist have sex with female NPCs, we can do that in game as well. If it means having women sexually objectified, we see that in game too. If it means having the female protagonist being dominated by a male NPC, we see that in game too.





Having NPCs who take a dump on the player character for no reason is lecturing. Iron Bull vfor example, does lecture your protagonist. That's not appealing content because if I wanted to be lectured on, I would visit lecturers and people who give sermons, not game developers.

Uh, huh. I only have your posts to go by and so far they are remarkably ignorant on how real economies work. I'm going to call BS on you or urge you to get a refund on your education. Additionally, its odd that you can't seem to grasp that current markets do not exist independently from the predominant culture in which they reside.This means that the gaming industry grew up in a culture that values the straight white male perspective over all others. Therefore, they catered to that perspective resulting in males being their biggest consumer base. This did not have to be the case. You seem to think the current cultural paradigm is by default the natural state of the world. News flash, hun, it's not and the market is changing.

Also, if you don't understand what the male perspective is, put those supposed research skills to work and find out as this is relevant to the discussion.

[straykat]

No one has said women are the largest demographic of gamers but the gap between the amount of women playing vs men is far less than most want to talk about and I'm not talking about "filthy mobile games" which people LOVE to bring up when it comes to statistics for women vs men playing games. Then if you're talking about this I suppose you would be talking about "core gamers" in terms of which type of gamers you two are referring to.

 

Stats say it. But I'm just calling it out as questionable. Mobile games have a lot to do with this boost in numbers. Games aren't all the same, which these polls fail to address. And mislead everyone.

 

I don't think they're filthy though. lol

[mrs_anomaly]

Stats say it. But I'm just calling it out as questionable. Mobile games have a lot to do with this boost in numbers. Games aren't all the same, which these polls fail to address. And mislead everyone.

 

I don't think they're filthy though. lol

 

GTK lol   I just said "filthy" bc of the "filthy casual" reference 

 

Hilariously I despise mobile games and my white husband loves them   I'm THE gamer in my household and the only one left (my two younger brothers quit gaming after burning out on MMO's a long time ago) in my family sibling wise.