477 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I've noticed that things only become an 'agenda' and 'SJW pandering' when it's stuff that dudebro gamers don't agree with.  It ignores the possiblity that writers are including these characters and themes because they want to.

 

You do know that its the "dudebros" that are responsible for getting gaming, comic books, nerd culture and geek culture to where they are now, right ? You do know that without these "dudebros" you hate so much, you won't be playing video games today, let alone enjoy the comforts of Western society, because you would be living in a grass hut scavenging for fruits ?

 

I still remember my school days where women would treat guys like me in a shi*ty way because we are nerdy gamers. Fast forward a decade, when gaming is popular, cool and profitable, then these girls are suddenly "gamers all along", they were "girl gamers" . Worse, they want to lecture men who were there from the beginning, when gaming was an unpopular activity that was looked down by women, on what kind of games should we "dudebros" play and that we should just kowtow to their "complaints".

 

Its not just games though. This applies to comic books and fiction too. Back in day when at school if a guy was reading a comic book, he was a loser nerd to the girls. Now these same girls somehow just love comic books now and are now dictating to us, who were there from the beginning, what we should read and how we should just bow down to their "complaints".

 

I am perfectly fine with women who just want to play games and have fun. They are cool in my book. They are one of my favorite kind of gamer. The kind that comes, kicks back and goes to rekt the enemy. But you are not one of them. The fact that you use the word "dudebro" is a glaring clue that you are that kind of gamer girl. The kind that used to call male gamers losers when gaming was a fringe unpopular activity and now wants to complain about us and dictate to us.

 

This picture will explain it far better than I can:-

 

 

 

But presumably only to meet new people with your same opinions and values? The risk of meeting new people is that they're not going to agree with you. That includes game developers. They are allowed to produce content that reflects their opinions and values, just as you are allowed to purchase that product or not if you disagree with those opinions and values.

 

& I am allowed to say that their stated opinions are crap and that they have no qualification to preach or lecture others on things.
 

Oooo, wait, do I get extra Man Points for having built my own gaming PC? (Not that I need them with all these RPGs I have. I'll have testosterone leaking out of my pores soon.)

 

Looks like Andraste can't take a joke. She can cheat on her husband with a Fade spirit and an Elf and turn into roasted kebab in Minrathous just fine though.

[Heimdall]

Oh dear,

In fairness, there are societal social pressures that cause different demographics, like women and men, to have differing preferences on average. Averages can't be applied to individuals though.

[Illyria]

You do know that its the "dudebros" that are responsible for getting gaming, comic books, nerd culture and geek culture to where they are now, right ? You do know that without these "dudebros" you hate so much, you won't be playing video games today, let alone enjoy the comforts of Western society, because you would be living in a grass hut scavenging for fruits ?

 

I still remember my school days where women would treat guys like me in a shi*ty way because we are nerdy gamers. Fast forward a decade, when gaming is popular, cool and profitable, then these girls are suddenly "gamers all along", they were "girl gamers" . Worse, they want to lecture men who were there from the beginning, when gaming was an unpopular activity that was looked down by women, on what kind of games should we "dudebros" play and that we should just kowtow to their "complaints".

 

Its not just games though. This applies to comic books and fiction too. Back in day when at school if a guy was reading a comic book, he was a loser nerd to the girls. Now these same girls somehow just love comic books now and are now dictating to us, who were there from the beginning, what we should read and how we should just bow down to their "complaints".

 

I am perfectly fine with women who just want to play games and have fun. They are cool in my book. They are one of my favorite kind of gamer. The kind that comes, kicks back and goes to rekt the enemy. But you are not one of them. The fact that you use the word "dudebro" is a glaring clue that you are that kind of gamer girl. The kind that used to call male gamers losers when gaming was a fringe unpopular activity and now wants to complain about us and dictate to us.

 

So because some girls were mean to you it means that every woman isn't a gamer?

 

And yes, I use the word 'dudebro' because I don't like using phrases like 'male gamers' since that implies all male gamers are dudebros.

 

Newsflash: girls have also been there since the beginning.

[vbibbi]

& I am allowed to say that their stated opinions are crap and that they have no qualification to preach or lecture others on things.

 

You are allowed, certainly. But what is the intended point of the diatribes on these boards? Do you think you're going to convince Bioware to change their opinions because you tell them their thoughts are crap? Are you going to convert anyone on these boards who doesn't already agree with you to suddenly realize the games they've been playing are awful and stop buying them?

 

You're coming across as shouting into the void because you don't like the opinions given by a company who has been consistent in their opinions for years. It's petulant and immature. Why not just refuse to buy future Bioware games and find other game developers who are more in line with your values? Because I can guarantee Bioware isn't going to change to fit your opinions, nor will most people on these boards.

[maia0407]

And now we're down to where all that rage against women is coming from. I'm sorry you were made to feel bad for the things you enjoyed in high school. That sucks. But it doesn't change the facts that women have always been part of geek culture whether you chose to recognize them or not. It doesn't give you ownership of the market or change the fact that women are playing the same games as you in ever growing numbers. It also doesn't change the fact that many developers are waking up to the fact that their fan base is more diverse than straight white males and acknowledging us as well. Look around at the news, statements made by developers, conferences going on with minorities in mind and you'll see the changing market. You'll see the market responding to us because there is money to be made by acknowledging us. Nobody is pushing you out of your hobby. We're just making room for ourselves at the table.

[Illyria]

And now we're down to where all that rage against women is coming from. I'm sorry you were made to feel bad for the things you enjoyed in high school. That sucks. But it doesn't change the facts that women have always been part of geek culture whether you chose to recognize them or not. It doesn't give you ownership of the market or change the fact that women are playing the same games as you in ever growing numbers. It also doesn't change the fact that many developers are waking up to the fact that their fan base is more diverse than straight white males and acknowledging us as well. Look around at the news, statements made by developers, conferences going on with minorities in mind and you'll see the changing market. You'll see the market responding to us because there is money to be made by acknowledging us. Nobody is pushing you out of your hobby. We're just making room for ourselves at the table.

 

This.

 

I am sorry you were made to feel this way, Hipshot.

[lynroy]

First, I wasn't playing the right games, now I was supposed to make fun of the other boys playing video games instead of playing those games with them? Dammit, my entire gaming life has been a lie!

[Illyria]

First, I wasn't playing the right games, now I was supposed to make fun of the other boys playing video games instead of playing those games with them? Dammit, my entire gaming life has been a lie!

 

Same.  Where did we go wrong?

[straykat]

Well... I'm all for nurture over nature. If there is a nature at all.

 

There is a problem with how genders are sometimes nurtured though. Maybe he should have led with that.

[YourFunnyUncle]

It's weird. I am a 41 year-old straight white male. I have played games since I got a Sinclair ZX Spectrum in 1984 and have never stopped. I was the stereotypical geeky guy with thick glasses and messy hair at school. I've basically lived through the entirety of gaming culture, and here I am playing as women and gay men in BioWare games and loving loving the opportunity to do so. I'm relishing that new perspectives are coming to what had been an increasingly stale market of endless grizzled dudes in FPS's. Did I do something wrong? Did I betray my "heritage"?

[lynroy]

Same.  Where did we go wrong?

No idea. I'm flummoxed.

[Gileadan]

Same. Where did we go wrong?

Maybe you're late to the party?

There was a time when one of the easiest ways to make sure you never got a date was to mention your gaming hobby within the earshot of girls/women... but that, in my personal experience, was back in the 80s and 90s. But even back then, there were girls who gamed, but for every one of them there were dozens who ridiculed you for it.

Disclaimer: this is entirely anecdotal and personal experience. And it's not like there weren't guys who made fun of you because of it too.

That said, I'm all for more women in gaming. My favorite hobby becoming more accepted by and shared by others can't be a bad thing.

[straykat]

Maybe you're late to the party?

There was a time when one of the easiest ways to make sure you never got a date was to mention your gaming hobby within the earshot of girls/women... but that, in my personal experience, was back in the 80s and 90s. But even back then, there were girls who gamed, but for every one of them there were dozens who ridiculed you for it.

Disclaimer: this is entirely anecdotal and personal experience. And it's not like there weren't guys who made fun of you because of it too.

That said, I'm all for more women in gaming. My favorite hobby becoming more accepted by and shared by others can't be a bad thing.

 

Maybe that was why I didn't game during my teens. It started as a kid, but dropped off during those years.

 

 

I only picked it back up because I wanted to get away from everyone... a little before I was 20. It's been years since. You could say I associate it somewhat with my anti-social behavior.

[Andraste_Reborn]

 

I still remember my school days where women would treat guys like me in a shi*ty way because we are nerdy gamers. Fast forward a decade, when gaming is popular, cool and profitable, then these girls are suddenly "gamers all along", they were "girl gamers" . Worse, they want to lecture men who were there from the beginning, when gaming was an unpopular activity that was looked down by women, on what kind of games should we "dudebros" play and that we should just kowtow to their "complaints".

 

I have been gaming since 1986 - when I turned six and my parents thought I was old enough to be trusted with a joystick - and reading comics since ... um, probably 1984 or so? Started on Tintin and Asterix, then Disney stuff, didn't really get into superheroes until around '94 when I first saw the X-Men animated series. I am at least as much of a geek as anyone else on this thread. We've been here all along, dude. Just because you didn't notice us, doesn't mean we just got here.

 

For the record, I was bullied by the boys and girls at school for being a big nerd. Played Magic: The Gathering and D&D with the geekier guys, though.

 

Looks like Andraste can't take a joke. She can cheat on her husband with a Fade spirit and an Elf and turn into roasted kebab in Minrathous just fine though.

 

I am multi-talented, it's true.

 

However, I am named after the high dragon, not the prophet. (Well, actually, my use of Andraste as my handle dates back to 2000 and I'm not named after either of them. But for the purposes of these boards ...)

[YourFunnyUncle]

I was just thinking about the video game shop where I worked in the late 90s, with the female staff member who would play four-player Goldeneye and Mariokart with us on the store's demo N64 and regularly kick my arse. Or the guy whose wife used to come in with their LARPing gear so they could go off and have fun together as soon as he finished work. I probably just imagined them. That must be it...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Maybe that was why I didn't game during my teens. It started as a kid, but dropped off during those years.

 

 

I only picked it back up because I wanted to get away from everyone... a little before I was 20. It's been years since. You could say I associate it somewhat with my anti-social behavior.

 

Maybe you're late to the party?

There was a time when one of the easiest ways to make sure you never got a date was to mention your gaming hobby within the earshot of girls/women... but that, in my personal experience, was back in the 80s and 90s. But even back then, there were girls who gamed, but for every one of them there were dozens who ridiculed you for it.

Disclaimer: this is entirely anecdotal and personal experience. And it's not like there weren't guys who made fun of you because of it too.

That said, I'm all for more women in gaming. My favorite hobby becoming more accepted by and shared by others can't be a bad thing.

 

I gamed because to get away from everyone and enjoy myself. It was, and still mostly is a private thing for me. Fyi, I am from Malaysia. See, I am not a very tall guy. My height is 5'5" / 1.65m. Naturally, when I was a kid, I was practically a midget / the shortest in the class for almost every year.  I was one of the top student at school, district and state level and I was the top track & field and cross country athlete at school and district level.

 

However, the intelligence and speed never mattered. The height, or the lack of it, mattered.  So I was teased and picked constantly. It wasn't exactly a stellar tale at home either. I learned very early on that personality and achievements mean jack sh*t, vag tingles and height did. After all, I experienced it. I am Asian Indian and every stereotype you Westerners know about Asian parents applied to me - Must get A all the time if not there would be punishment, must study all the time, can't go out to meet friends because must study, can't be free and can't do anything fun until study time and housework chores are over, etc. I was the eldest you see, and because being the eldest boy in Asian Indian families is a big deal (being eldest girl isn't), my parents went overboard with the strictness thing.

 

So gaming, comic books and fiction was my refuge. When my classmates learned about it, I got ridiculed some more, particularly by the girls. When I retaliated, the girls would act as if they did not do anything wrong and I would get a disciplinary warning and detentions, because of the "women are wonderful" effect, and because teachers thought that gaming and comics are for weirdos. To this day (I am 25 now), my parents have not been approving or appreciative of my gaming hobby. They see gaming is something bad and corrupting. But somehow my younger sister can play Angry Birds and my younger brother can own a PSP, but when I wanted a PS2, the answer was no. That was where my resentmet towards consoles started, way before the whole peasantry thing. FFS, my parents stopped me from buying Doraemon comics because Sizuka was sometimes naked in it.

 

Its why to this day I keep to myself, its why I prefer to play games and watch movies and read comics alone (I do not like going to cinemas with other people), its why I hate censorship and banning, it is why I am wary of women and it is why I do not like being lectured on.

[maia0407]

@ yourfunnyuncle: Yeah, I must not have played the neighbors Atari and got a Nintendo in the 80s. I didn't play video games with my girl group of friends in the 90s. I didn't hang out with a boyfriend in college and play games. That couldn't have happened because I, a girl that liked games,didn't exist. Good thing I have men to thank for fighting the good fight and bringing gaming to where it is today.

I can't help but being reminded of all the awesome women scientists that toiled along side men only to have their contributions ignored and sometimes attributed to men. Or, what about the many wonderful women science fiction writers that are overlooked on the best of lists. Culture has nothing to do with any of this, though.

[straykat]

I gamed because to get away from everyone and enjoy myself. It was, and still mostly is a private thing for me. Fyi, I am from Malaysia. See, I am not a very tall guy. My height is 5'5" / 1.65m. Naturally, when I was a kid, I was practically a midget / the shortest in the class for almost every year.  I was one of the top student at school, district and state level and I was the top track & field and cross country athlete at school and district level.

 

However, the intelligence and speed never mattered. The height, or the lack of it, mattered.  So I was teased and picked constantly. It wasn't exactly a stellar tale at home either. I learned very early on that personality and achievements mean jack sh*t, vag tingles and height did. After all, I experienced it. I am Asian Indian and every stereotype you Westerners know about Asian parents applied to me - Must get A all the time if not there would be punishment, must study all the time, can't go out to meet friends because must study, can't be free and can't do anything fun until study time and housework chores are over, etc. I was the eldest you see, and because being the eldest boy in Asian Indian families is a big deal (being eldest girl isn't), my parents went overboard with the strictness thing.

 

So gaming, comic books and fiction was my refuge. When my classmates learned about it, I got ridiculed some more, particularly by the girls. When I retaliated, the girls would act as if they did not do anything wrong and I would get a disciplinary warning and detentions, because of the "women are wonderful" effect, and because teachers thought that gaming and comics are for weirdos. To this day (I am 25 now), my parents have not been approving or appreciative of my gaming hobby. They see gaming is something bad and corrupting. But somehow my younger sister can play Angry Birds and my younger brother can own a PSP, but when I wanted a PS2, the answer was no. That was where my resentmet towards consoles started, way before the whole peasantry thing. FFS, my parents stopped me from buying Doraemon comics because Sizuka was sometimes naked in it.

 

Its why to this day I keep to myself, its why I prefer to play games and watch movies and read comics alone (I do not like going to cinemas with other people), its why I hate censorship and banning, it is why I am wary of women and it is why I do not like being lectured on.

 

If you makes you feel better, I'm a tall guy, but we ended up in the same spot. I never made use of it.

[Gileadan]

@ yourfunnyuncle: Yeah, I must not have played the neighbors Atari and got a Nintendo in the 80s. I didn't play video games with my girl group of friends in the 90s. I didn't hang out with a boyfriend in college and play games. That couldn't have happened because I, a girl that liked games,didn't exist. Good thing I have men to thank for fighting the good fight and bringing gaming to where it is today.

I can't help but being reminded of all the awesome women scientists that toiled along side men only to have their contributions ignored and sometimes attributed to men. Or, what about the many wonderful women science fiction writers that are overlooked on the best of lists. Culture has nothing to do with any of this, though.

In case you were referring to my post: what are you trying to say? That somehow your experiences invalidate mine? That it was somehow my fault to not notice all those gaming girls around me? I'm honestly curious, and I didn't want my post to sound dismissive, but merely factual, and I did mention that it was entirely anecdotal.

EDIT: my reading comprehension sucks. Just saw you were replying to MyFunnyUncle.

Sorry.

[maia0407]

In case you were referring to my post: what are you trying to say? That somehow your experiences invalidate mine? That it was somehow my fault to not notice all those gaming girls around me? I'm honestly curious, and I didn't want my post to sound dismissive, but merely factual, and I did mention that it was entirely anecdotal.

No, I wasn't referring to you. I'm just still on the comment made earlier that women don't game and we should be grateful to men for gaming. I don't deny that gamers are ridiculed. Women are made fun of as well and often we have to deal with the idea that we're doubly weird as 'women don't game'.

[YourFunnyUncle]

If you're a timid socially awkward person at school, who do you really know beyond your close friends? I do know that there were girls in my maths, chemistry and physics classes at school who wanted to train to be doctors and engineers, but I never really talked to them about games. I was petrified of the opposite sex... I was certainly picked on by many boys for being a geek...

[Gileadan]

No, I wasn't referring to you. I'm just still on the comment made earlier that women don't game and we should be grateful to men for gaming. I don't deny that gamers are ridiculed. Women are made fun of as well and often we have to deal with the idea that were doubly weird as 'women don't game'.

I sadly can't argue with that.

My gaming career was kinda lucky in that aspect. When I still played MMOs, I somehow ended up in guilds that valued and respected female players. The most dedicated Everquest player I ever knew was a woman. Teacher by profession, and apparently requiring very little sleep. I'll never forget that phone call at 4 am on a work day. "That quest giant I camped just spawned, can you come over and help kill it?"

Not saying this to prove you wrong in any way, just... I like to think that not all hope is lost.

[Gilli]

I have been gaming since 1986 - when I turned six and my parents thought I was old enough to be trusted with a joystick - and reading comics since ... um, probably 1984 or so? Started on Tintin and Asterix, then Disney stuff, didn't really get into superheroes in '94 when I first saw the X-Men animated series. I am at least as much of a geek as anyone else on this thread. We've been here all along, dude. Just because you didn't notice us, doesn't mean we just got here.

Oh~ a fellow Asterix and Tintin reader! 

Asterix was the first comics I read and that, before I even was able to read.
 

For the record, I was bullied by the boys and girls at school for being a big nerd. Played Magic: The Gathering and D&D with the geekier guys, though.

Oh same, same. Just for me it wasn't playing Magic, but Pokemon Cards. (more collecting than playing tho, I didn't have any friends who liked Pokemon back then)

 

Yes, I admit it, I like Pokemon...no, I don't like Pokemon, I LOVE Pokemon. Back then in my school admitting to like Pokemon was like saying, you still play with building bricks. "Bubi" (an insulting way of calling someone a little boy (note: I'm a girl)), "Baby" (in the sense of calling someone a little child) "Stupid" were some words I got to hear for admitting what I like.   Well, admitting I like ANYTHING other than what I should like. 

 

If I go after my elementary school then:

 

• Boys should like Football  
• Girls should like Boy Bands 

 

and that's it.   I do not agree with this, but that is how I experienced my school years. 

 

You wouldn't believe my surprise, when in 5th grade a classmate asked if he could borrow my N64 and some of my games, so he and a friend could play games over the WE.

 

Was sadly the only time that happened, after that it went back to mocking me for liking stuff I shouldn't like.

[maia0407]

@Gileadan It sucks that anyone is ridiculed for something they enjoy.

The Everquest lady sounds like she was a blast to hang out with though!

[Heimdall]

Oh~ a fellow Asterix and Tintin reader! 

Asterix was the first comics I read and that, before I even was able to read.
 

Oh same, same. Just for me it wasn't playing Magic, but Pokemon Cards. (more collecting than playing tho, I didn't have any friends who liked Pokemon back then)

 

Yes, I admit it, I like Pokemon...no, I don't like Pokemon, I LOVE Pokemon. Back then in my school admitting to like Pokemon was like saying, you still play with building bricks. "Bubi" (an insulting way of calling someone a little boy (note: I'm a girl)), "Baby" (in the sense of calling someone a little child) "Stupid" were some words I got to hear for admitting what I like.   Well, admitting I like ANYTHING other than what I should like. 

 

If I go after my elementary school then:

 

• Boys should like Football  
• Girls should like Boy Bands 

 

and that's it.   I do not agree with this, but that is how I experienced my school years. 

 

You wouldn't believe my surprise, when in 5th grade a classmate asked if he could borrow my N64 and some of my games, so he and a friend could play games over the WE.

 

Was sadly the only time that happened, after that it went back to mocking me for liking stuff I shouldn't like.

Huh, I mostly avoided that by being incredibly tight lipped about the things I liked unless I already knew the other person liked the same thing.