52 replies to this topic

[straykat]

I like Warden Carver personally. I also don't have any other big Warden characters left either (no HoF, no Warden Alistair, no Loghain, etc), so it's nice to have one character wearing that suit. Heh.. But Templar is definitely better off, I think.

[fhs33721]

I like it best when Carver dies during the prologue and Bethany becomes a grey Warden.

The rare occasion I do play as mage I prefer for Carver to be a grey Warden as well.

[R0vena]

I like Carver and I prefer to play mage in DA 2, so Bethany is out and Carver is always alive, mostly Templar (since making him Warden requires very specific party combination in the Deep Roads).

In the more rare cases I play warrior or rogue Bethany survives 50\50. It mostly depends who is in my permanent party for this run. She usually survives and becomes Warden if my Hawke romances Anders because in that case Anders is in the party all the time. I confess, sometimes I let her die just to have my Hawke's LI kidnapped in Act 3. I think it brings even more drama to the situation.

[sniper_arrow]

I both like the twins, so if Bioware ever decides to release a reboot, make rogue Hawke with both of them alive and make their sickly father smashed to bits by that ogre.

[Catilina]

I both like the twins, so if Bioware ever decides to release a reboot, make rogue Hawke with both of them alive and make their sickly father smashed to bits by that ogre.

It would have been interesting!

I just imagined the scene, when Hawke arrive home from the Deep Roads, and Carver arrest Bethany...

[Inkvisiittori]

My canon Hawke's brother died fighting an ogre, his sister died in the Deep Roads thanks to Bartrand and his mother died at the hands of a lunatic blood mage. His uncle and cousin are still alive. Hawke himself died in the Fade. He had no wife or children.

 

My other Hawke (a blood mage) still has her brother Carver who joined the templars. They are not on best terms. Hawke helped Anders and rebel mages. She was last seen leaving for Weisshaupt fortress and hasn't been seen since.

 

I like both stories. I don't prefer one over other. Whatever suits the characters arc best is the better choice. Canon Hawke had always hated magic and blamed his mother and sister for having to live poorly. He was not proud of being a Hawke - he would rather have been known as Amell. Despite all that he loved his sister and felt guilty about her death (because at the same time it was kind of a relief - no more hiding and lying). Blood Mage Hawke's conflict with templar!Carver was interesting. I just wish there had been more options to express how betrayed and angry she felt when she learned Carver had joined the templars. "You're dead to me." That's how I wanted her to feel and was disappointed you couldn't fight against your own brother in the final battle. He always seemed so petty in his jealousy and whatever he had against his sister. I wish there had been real resentment between mage Hawke and templar Carver.

[Catilina]

[...]

I like both stories. I don't prefer one over other. Whatever suits the characters arc best is the better choice. Canon Hawke had always hated magic and blamed his mother and sister for having to live poorly. He was not proud of being a Hawke - he would rather have been known as Amell.

[...]

Amells have a large pile of mages in theirs bloodline as Hawkes, no much difference (I'm just saying), and he not "being" Hawke, he was born Hawke. Poor boy! This is a very sad story!

 

My two canon hawke was strongly pro-mage, with Templar brother, but they never hated Carver for it. Of course, angry with him, especially one of them, because of Anders, but still dont hate him, and dont want to fight with him. This was his choice he just wanted to find his own way in his life (remember, Aveline refused him to join to the guards), then if he can face it, he can do it. He promised: never will betray. On the other hand: a good brother could be useful between the enemy, and Carver are good brother. Angry, jealous and stubborn, but good. 

 

The DA2 story has been written that Hawke care about his/her family, I do not have much sense to hate them (any of them).

[Inkvisiittori]

Amells have a large pile of mages in theirs bloodline as Hawkes, no much difference (I'm just saying), and he not "being" Hawke, he was born Hawke. Poor boy! This is a very sad story!

 

For my Hawke the name Amell meant influence, money and a title. Where 'Hawke' was just a constant reminder of his mothers mistake. He disapproved of his mother's choices. She should have done what her parents wanted and marry Guillaume de Lancet. Instead she selfishly and recklessly ran way with an apostate. She denied her children their noble heritage by doing so. In Hawke's mind magic was to blame. It was always a shadow between him and his family - a reminder of what had been denied from him, of what could have been. He hated living poorly, always having to hide from the templars and never being able to settle anywhere for long. So when he finally gets the chance to restore the family honor and reclaim their estate (Act 1) he would have wanted to change his name to Amell (but sadly that wasn't possible). 

[Spirit Vanguard]

My canon is: Carver alive and a Grey Warden. 

 

Does it make a better story? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but I feel it makes my gaming more enjoyable. I prefer both of them to be alive when they can be, though.

 

For both siblings I tend to go for what seems to make them happier. I do, however, have them on each (living) path for variety.

 

--Carver finds purpose, belonging and self-worth as Warden -- he does say he feels it's what he was meant to be -- which makes him content, whereas he joins the Templars just cuz.

 

--Bethany seems happier not being a Warden -- and considering I favor endings with removal of the Circle, she would more or less finally be free to try living whatever life she wanted to be as opposed to being forced into another lifestyle she didn't want.

 

As for whether or not it's wise to make them Wardens because of stuff, I don't know.   I'm not sure it's ever really "wise" to be a Warden. 

[Spirit Vanguard]

The only one way to Carver was not blame Hawke: if he became Templar. But yes, Carver happier as Grey Warden, than Bethany.

 

Carver does eventually rebuke his blaming of Hawke as a Warden, though, and forgives the strife of the past. So he basically voids himself.

Edited by Spirit Vanguard, 21 July 2016 - 12:59 AM.

[Asha'bellanar]

Growing up do not have to hurry. Healthy brother better than tainted, I think.

Templars aren't exactly healthy. They're all necessarily lyrium addicts, and as with any addictive substance, it affects some of them very badly. There's a reason they refer to it as a "leash".

[Inkvisiittori]

Templars aren't exactly healthy. They're all necessarily lyrium addicts, and as with any addictive substance, it affects some of them very badly. There's a reason they refer to it as a "leash".

 

If you tell Cullen to keep taking lyrium you can see in Trespasser how bad it's already affecting him. That was pretty cool.  

[Catilina]

Templars aren't exactly healthy. They're all necessarily lyrium addicts, and as with any addictive substance, it affects some of them very badly. There's a reason they refer to it as a "leash".

This is true, but it is still less dangerous than the Calling within ten to fifteen years ... I think. The lyrium addiction can cured, he can left the Templars, but he the Wardens never. (Nevertheless, I know that Carver happier as Warden.)

[vertigomez]

Man, I hope Charade shows up again in some capacity.

Could be my fondness for Jennies, but I liked her.

[Illegitimus]

Hey so I'm curious, do you guys think that the overall story of dragon age 2 is better if Hawkes entire family dies, or if Carver/Bethany lives as a templar, mage, grey warden? 

 

I think it's better if Carver is a Templar or Bethany is a Circle Mage.  It gives you a personal connection to the final conflict that otherwise doesn't exist.  

[Asha'bellanar]

This is true, but it is still less dangerous than the Calling within ten to fifteen years ... I think. The lyrium addiction can cured, he can left the Templars, but he the Wardens never. (Nevertheless, I know that Carver happier as Warden.)

Out of curiosity, where do you get the 10-15 years figure? It's apparently shorter for a Warden who fought during a Blight, but Alistair says "thirty years, give or take". In fact, it seems to be more like 20, because Bioware has no idea what a timeline is, but this is the first time I've heard the 10-15 years.

[Catilina]

Out of curiosity, where do you get the 10-15 years figure? It's apparently shorter for a Warden who fought during a Blight, but Alistair says "thirty years, give or take". In fact, it seems to be more like 20, because Bioware has no idea what a timeline is, but this is the first time I've heard the 10-15 years.

Yes, you right. 20-30 years seem much creditable. The point is that the most people doesn't want theirs brother/sister would face such things, I think.

[GoldenGail3]

Yes, you right. 20-30 years seem much creditable. The point is that the most people doesn't want theirs brother/sister would face such things, I think.

My Hawke is just happy that Carver is happy, lol. Don't matter how long he lives for.... 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Kirkwall Circle is a horrific institution, you know that. Being a mage there is being sentenced to hell on earth, and leaving Bethany to suffer there is completely unacceptable. True, she is treated better than most of the other inmates, but only as Meredith's hostage. And by the end of her incarceration, Bethany does see the light if you've sided with the mages, and says the rebellion was justified.

 

As for Carver, he should really know better. He's seen what the Templars have done, and decides to join them anyway, perpetuating the injustice and tyranny of the Order. He betrays the memory of his sister and his father, along with his still living sibling. He'd be better off dead, so would any other Templar.

 

Bethany seems pretty content for "hell on earth."

[Inkvisiittori]

Yes, you right. 20-30 years seem much creditable. The point is that the most people doesn't want theirs brother/sister would face such things, I think.

 

But that's not even public knowledge, right? Wardens keep their secrets close to the chest. No one outside their ranks should know specifics about the Joining Ritual or what effects it has, I think. 

[Asha'bellanar]

Yes, you right. 20-30 years seem much creditable. The point is that the most people doesn't want theirs brother/sister would face such things, I think.

I don't know about most people. I think it's actually not much better being a templar. Cullen was only a templar for around 12 years or so, and it messed him up pretty badly. Samson was probably a templar that length of time or longer, and he was a complete wreck. On the other hand, some templars seem to handle the lyrium addiction better. I'm probably biased because I've had to overcome a powerful addiction, but to me, 20 years or so with enhanced abilities but knowing you're going to die seems better than an unknown number of years as an addict, and facing a horrendous withdrawl that might kill me or drive me insane when I try to retire. *shrug* I'm just saying neither "become a Grey Warden" nor "become a lyirum-addicted templar" seem like great options. Some would argue that it's better than dying, but I figure so long as the death is quick and painless, it may not be worse at all. We're all dying. Some of us will just take a lot longer to do it, and experience a lot more suffering on the way there.

[Asha'bellanar]

But that's not even public knowledge, right? Wardens keep their secrets close to the chest. No one outside their ranks should know specifics about the Joining Ritual or what effects it has, I think. 

That really doesn't have anything to do with where I was going, but, yes, you're right. My only part in this has been to say that being a templar isn't a healthy choice, nor is it necessarily a better choice. I'm not arguing that being a Grey Warden is better. Frankly, I'd rather just die outright.

[Inkvisiittori]

That really doesn't have anything to do with where I was going, but, yes, you're right. My only part in this has been to say that being a templar isn't a healthy choice, nor is it necessarily a better choice. I'm not arguing that being a Grey Warden is better. Frankly, I'd rather just die outright.

 

I agree both are equally bad options. 

 

If I had to choose I would go with the Wardens. Chantry has too much control over the Templar Order. Their addiction makes them a weapon. Grey Wardens have at least free will. Lyrium consumption slowly decays the brain network. The taint only affects the body, not mind and brain, but the Grey Warden's are also bound to the Old Gods forever. 

 

There have been few known cases of Grey Wardens being cured from the taint and Cullen in DAI can be helped to overcome his addiction. There seems to be no lasting symptoms on those who have been cured from taint - once you are cured you are freed forever. Where as lyrium consumption, I believe, likely leaves some lasting effects. You probably always have craving for lyrium, for the rest of your life and since there is no advanced medical science in Thedas there is no way to know just how damaging the use of lyrium really is.

[Catilina]

I don't know about most people. I think it's actually not much better being a templar. Cullen was only a templar for around 12 years or so, and it messed him up pretty badly. Samson was probably a templar that length of time or longer, and he was a complete wreck. On the other hand, some templars seem to handle the lyrium addiction better. I'm probably biased because I've had to overcome a powerful addiction, but to me, 20 years or so with enhanced abilities but knowing you're going to die seems better than an unknown number of years as an addict, and facing a horrendous withdrawl that might kill me or drive me insane when I try to retire. *shrug* I'm just saying neither "become a Grey Warden" nor "become a lyirum-addicted templar" seem like great options. Some would argue that it's better than dying, but I figure so long as the death is quick and painless, it may not be worse at all. We're all dying. Some of us will just take a lot longer to do it, and experience a lot more suffering on the way there.

Do not forget the nightmares and the other abnormality. And you can never leave the order.

[Catilina]

I agree both are equally bad options. 

 

If I had to choose I would go with the Wardens. Chantry has too much control over the Templar Order. Their addiction makes them a weapon. Grey Wardens have at least free will. Lyrium consumption slowly decays the brain network. The taint only affects the body, not mind and brain, but the Grey Warden's are also bound to the Old Gods forever. 

 

There have been few known cases of Grey Wardens being cured from the taint and Cullen in DAI can be helped to overcome his addiction. There seems to be no lasting symptoms on those who have been cured from taint - once you are cured you are freed forever. Where as lyrium consumption, I believe, likely leaves some lasting effects. You probably always have craving for lyrium, for the rest of your life and since there is no advanced medical science in Thedas there is no way to know just how damaging the use of lyrium really is.

There is no known cure and it affects also the mind: nightmares, voices.

But you may be right. None of them is good and healty.