Questa discussione ha avuto 42 risposte

[straykat]

= Trickster?

 

 

Am I reading too much into the sound of his name there? WoT 2 says he's a trickster warrior... and that there are many elven trickster warriors.. many Shartans. But I don't know if he's THE Trickster. I kind of doubt it.. if he's a warrior and carries Andraste's blade (Glandivalis),and we saw him at the Temple of Sacred Ashes, it's not likely he's Solas (despite the bald head).

 

As for "many trickster warriors", even Fenris is a "wolf" who tricks us into recruiting him. You could say the Warden is too, if he/she happens to also be CE and Dark Wolf. The guy who takes on the Dark Wolf name in Awakening is also an elf warrior.

 

I'm just curious on the phonetics of the name though. And WHY he's considered a Trickster. Because it doesn't seem to be for any old Dread Wolf reasons.

[Reznore57]

You mean charlatan?

 

Gervaise , from the forum , has some really good ideas about that ,which I tend to agree with ...it's some tales of Fen Harel got mixed in with tales of Shartan.

It's possible the Tevinter elven slaves had stories about Fen Harel freeing slaves from the Evanuris , and obviously they would have liked those in their situation.

It's possible they renamed Fen Harel or had imaginary elven heroes doing the Fen Harel , leaving out the "destroyed our empire and us at the same time" stuff.

And Shartan freeing slaves himself got stuck in those tales as well.

 

Another point Gervaise had is some stories about Shartan and Andraste might have been old stories about Mythal and Fen Harel , it is possible , and even if it turns out wrong , it's pretty cool to think about.

 

Anyway it's like the Fen Harel Archetype or some kind of trope for the people of Thedas, I imagine.

[straykat]

Yes, let me correct the spelling. I was multitasking.. that's my excuse.

 

 

edit: Damn, I can't correct the title?

[Reznore57]

Yes, let me correct the spelling. I was multitasking.. that's my excuse.

 

 

edit: Damn, I can't correct the title?

 

Don't know , I rarely start threat.

Well it gives your title some originality and mystery."Who is Charaltan? *dun dun dun*"

[straykat]

Yeah.. yeah... I meant to do it

 

 

I kind of like that Shartan is mixed up in all of it. And that other elves have taken on the persona for themselves.. It's like they're claiming the Wolf moniker, and taking it away somewhat from whatever Solas is associated with.

 

You could even say the clash between Sera and Solas reflects the difference... between how tricksters are in this world, and how he saw it. They largely don't care about what he wants. They only liked the Liberator aspect to it.

 

edit: Oh good.. Changed the title. Needed to go into full editor mode.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Shartan is Solas.

Search your heart. You know it to be true.

He was a party member in her quest just like he's a party member in the Inquisitors quest.

Yup. Flawless logic lol.

[Ghost Gal]

No.

[ModernAcademic]

Well, Shartan fought to help the Dalish have a home. He didn't care about the Veil, magic, spirits or Arlathan. That's what Chantry lore says, anyway,

 

Solas' motivation may sound similar at first when it comes to helping elves rebuild their society, but what he wants is something quite distinct. He does want to rebuild the elven race, but not in this world. He wants to destroy this world so as to restore the world of the past, a world not even the dalish have ever lived in. And he'll do that by lifting the Veil.

 

But the fans have noticed many similarities between Flemeth and Andraste, and they indeed make anyone wonder just why both myths repeat the same themes: human and elf become allies, both fight for the freedom of their people, human suffers betrayal, elf ends up alone.

 

I think Andraste's story might be an interpretation of a story - or stories - from older mythologies. The Chantry must've copied old myths and rewritten them in the light of the new society that was founded after Tevinter lost its dominion over the South, the Orlesian Empire was founded and the faith in the Maker began to grow. TheChantry needed legends to back that faith. And so it must've sought inspiration from old myths belonging to other cultures. That's what the Church did, anyway.

 

I hope we have some answers in DA 4.

[straykat]

No.

 

No what?

 

We're discussing elves. Don't be a Qunari.

 

 

 

 

Well, Shartan fought to help the Dalish have a home. He didn't care about the Veil, magic, spirits or Arlathan. That's what Chantry lore says, anyway,

 

Solas' motivation may sound similar at first when it comes to helping elves rebuild their society, but what he wants is something quite distinct. He does want to rebuild the elven race, but not in this world. He wants to destroy this world so as to restore the world of the past, a world not even the dalish have ever lived in. And he'll do that by lifting the Veil.

 

But the fans have noticed many similarities between Flemeth and Andraste, and they indeed make anyone wonder just why both myths repeat the same themes: human and elf become allies, both fight for the freedom of their people, human suffers betrayal, elf ends up alone.

 

I think Andraste's story might be an interpretation of a story - or stories - from older mythologies. The Chantry must've copied old myths and rewritten them in the light of the new society that was founded after Tevinter lost its dominion over the South, the Orlesian Empire was founded and the faith in the Maker began to grow. TheChantry needed legends to back that faith. And so it must've sought inspiration from old myths belonging to other cultures. That's what the Church did, anyway.

 

I hope we have some answers in DA 4.

 

What are the similarities with Flemeth and Andraste? I don't see any, other than both were Ferelden women who dealt with crappy husbands.

[ModernAcademic]

 

What are the similarities with Flemeth and Andraste? I don't see any, other than both were Ferelden women who dealt with crappy husbands.

 

 

LoL!  Good thing our Fem!Cousland can have the choice to have a decent husband, then (or wife, in the case of Leliana). 

 

Well, there are some similarities I've read here and there in a few threads, such as Flemeth being human and Shartan being an elf and both allying to fight a tyrannical empire (Tevinter in the case of Andraste, Arlathan as ruled by the Evanuris slavers in the case of Flemeth).

There's also the fact that both Flemeth and Andraste were betrayed and murdered afterwards. 

 

Some fans also point out how Andraste's design in a Chantry painting looks a lot like Flemeth:

 

 

(Long, white hair and even the same spiky hairpiece? Hm.) 

 

 

But I'm not one of the theorists, I'm just passing on what little I know about the fans' theory.There's a lot more stuff in the forum the fans have posted to back this up. Remembering everything is a bit tricky, though. Sorry. 

[straykat]

I thought those Chantry depictions were of a blonde (but apparently, she might've been a redhead according to some sources).

 

While Flemeth is just grey.. and apparently had hair as "dark as night" once. I imagine someone like Morrigan or LadyHawke.

 

Anyways, yeah.. there is that similarity with slave liberation too. Makes sense..

[ModernAcademic]

I thought those Chantry depictions were of a blonde (but apparently, she might've been a redhead according to some sources).
 
While Flemeth is just grey.. and apparently had hair as "dark as night" once. I imagine someone like Morrigan or LadyHawke.
 
Anyways, yeah.. there is that similarity with slave liberation too. Makes sense..

You're right. Flemeth was a beautiful brunette in her youth.
I guess that went unnoticed by some of the theorists. ;-)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas' in universe author suggests it's possible that there may never been an actual Shartan, and that early elven Andrastians made up the ideal of an elven rebel slave based on their old stories of the Dread Wolf. However, given our experience with the Temple of Sacred Ashes, that does not appear to be true.

[Cute Nug]

Solas = Solace = comfort or consolation in a time of distress or sadness

 

Solas = Soulless = not having or showing any of the qualities and feelings (such as sympathy and kindness) that make people appealing

[Gervaise]

Shartan was real.   Not just the Temple of Sacred Ashes but also Sister Petrine confirms that is the case.    However, it would be just like the Chantry to include some scholar's idea that it was just a symbolic name, to reduce the significance of restoring the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant because Shartan is really a great embarrassment to them.   Not only is it clear that Andraste promised him the Dales (the land they ended up in would probably have been inherited by Andraste from her Mother who was a Ciriane leader) and gave him her mother's sword (also likely with some connection to elven ruins in the Dales) but Sister Petrine makes the point, which is also found in the Canticle, that without Shartan and his elves, the barbarians would likely have lost the Battle of the Valarian Fields.  

 

I repeat what I have said elsewhere.    Shartan probably used the old elven stories about the rebel leader against tyrants in order to inspire his followers.   His story was always an oral tradition among the elves of the Dales and since many of the inhabitants were never among his followers but only heard the stories second hand, it is hardly surprising that the story of the real Shartan got mixed in with the earlier legend that he used to inspire his followers.     This might also account for why the origin of the slave revolt seemed to change location, likely according to the origins of the Dalish group that were asked.    Then the first Divine wanted to included the story of Shartan in the Chant and asked her clerics to write it down, some 170 years after the events it recounted.    When the Chantry care to acknowledge Shartan, they state he was a disciple of Andraste but if he was, that didn't mean he exclusively worshipped the Maker, any more than Ameridan did.

 

I do think that there are parts of the Canticle of Shartan that are not actually about him but are the elements of the earlier folk tale, just as I think there are parts of the story of Andraste herself that are not authentic history but probably included elements of an earlier folk legend.     In the Chant, Andraste is betrayed when she goes to commune with the Maker by a silver pool not far from Minrathous, whereas in reality she was captured from her stronghold in Nevarra.    So who was the figure by the silver pool?   Could it in fact have been Mythal going to a lyrium spring near the city of Arlathan before her confrontation with the other Evanuris?   

 

Incidentally I think the pictures of Andraste in white and with silver hair are meant to depict her in her transcended state rather than her mortal appearance, which few people could probably remember with any accuracy anyway.

[straykat]

Shartan was real.   Not just the Temple of Sacred Ashes but also Sister Petrine confirms that is the case.    However, it would be just like the Chantry to include some scholar's idea that it was just a symbolic name, to reduce the significance of restoring the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant because Shartan is really a great embarrassment to them.   Not only is it clear that Andraste promised him the Dales (the land they ended up in would probably have been inherited by Andraste from her Mother who was a Ciriane leader) and gave him her mother's sword (also likely with some connection to elven ruins in the Dales) but Sister Petrine makes the point, which is also found in the Canticle, that without Shartan and his elves, the barbarians would likely have lost the Battle of the Valarian Fields.  

 

I repeat what I have said elsewhere.    Shartan probably used the old elven stories about the rebel leader against tyrants in order to inspire his followers.   His story was always an oral tradition among the elves of the Dales and since many of the inhabitants were never among his followers but only heard the stories second hand, it is hardly surprising that the story of the real Shartan got mixed in with the earlier legend that he used to inspire his followers.     This might also account for why the origin of the slave revolt seemed to change location, likely according to the origins of the Dalish group that were asked.    Then the first Divine wanted to included the story of Shartan in the Chant and asked her clerics to write it down, some 170 years after the events it recounted.    When the Chantry care to acknowledge Shartan, they state he was a disciple of Andraste but if he was, that didn't mean he exclusively worshipped the Maker, any more than Ameridan did.

 

I do think that there are parts of the Canticle of Shartan that are not actually about him but are the elements of the earlier folk tale, just as I think there are parts of the story of Andraste herself that are not authentic history but probably included elements of an earlier folk legend.     In the Chant, Andraste is betrayed when she goes to commune with the Maker by a silver pool not far from Minrathous, whereas in reality she was captured from her stronghold in Nevarra.    So who was the figure by the silver pool?   Could it in fact have been Mythal going to a lyrium spring near the city of Arlathan before her confrontation with the other Evanuris?   

 

Incidentally I think the pictures of Andraste in white and with silver hair are meant to depict her in her transcended state rather than her mortal appearance, which few people could probably remember with any accuracy anyway.

 

Good post. Barring some major revelation in another game, this seems like the closest I'm gonna get to the truth.

 

Disciple or not, he apparently made a last ditch effort to save her... and died with her. Sad, but pretty cool nonetheless.

[Apo]

Since DA:I i'll never trust any "important" bald elf anymore, we have been warned since DA:O with the story of Zathrian

[straykat]

Since DA:I i'll never trust any "important" bald elf anymore, we have been warned since DA:O with the story of Zathrian

 

Is that like the Turians who lack facepaint?

[German Soldier]

I thought those Chantry depictions were of a blonde (but apparently, she might've been a redhead according to some sources).

 

While Flemeth is just grey.. and apparently had hair as "dark as night" once. I imagine someone like Morrigan or LadyHawke.

 

Anyways, yeah.. there is that similarity with slave liberation too. Makes sense..

and the same headdress of Flemeth as well.

[straykat]

I just don't see the relation. Flemeth was a brunette from Highever, in the Towers age...long after Andraste. Conobar had to keep Flemeth secret, because she was a mage. The Chantry was already strong by this point. And Conobar was the precursor to the Cousland family. It was his chief guard who took over the estate and started the Couslands. She isn't that old, relatively speaking. Andraste was a child of fishermen in ancient Denerim. And slaves or something. The Imperium still ruled. There was no Conobar or anything like it yet.

 

I think the Flemeth story has pretty much been solved at this point. She was a fleeing woman, who stumbled upon the dormant spirit of what was left from Mythal.

[German Soldier]

I just don't see the relation. Flemeth was a brunette from Highever, in the Towers age...long after Andraste. Conobar had to keep Flemeth secret, because she was a mage. The Chantry was already strong by this point. And Conobar was the precursor to the Cousland family. It was his chief guard who took over the estate and started the Couslands. She isn't that old, relatively speaking. Andraste was a child of fishermen in ancient Denerim. And slaves or something. The Imperium still ruled. There was no Conobar or anything like it yet.

I think the Flemeth story has pretty much been solved at this point. She was a fleeing woman, who stumbled upon the dormant spirit of what was left from Mythal.

It's not Flemeth is Mythal she is depicted with that headdress as well in the Altar.
Mythal is jumping from one person to the other like a flipper by now.
I don't like much the vibe of DA everything is
shaped by those who are guided by destiny and is some special snowflake of the ancient nonsense.

[straykat]

I don't like that vibe either, but I'd need more to go on to think Andraste is Mythal.

 

For once, I hope she's just a damn hero and led a slave rebellion. Like a Boudica or Joan of Arc. None of the other crap, please. That would make our real world even cooler if a fantasy story can't even manage this. Strangely.

[Gervaise]

I agree with you on that one.   When people were saying that Shartan was Solas, I was thinking please no, just let Shartan be a genuine elven hero.    I like the idea that you have regular people every once in a while who do extraordinary things, like our own PC.      I have no problem with the real story about these heroes getting muddled with older folk legends, so long as the historical person was just that and not some vessel for an ancient being.

 

However, there is a bit of a problem with Andraste because it is clear that she was in communication with something that was driving her crusade, beyond her own human motivations.   If she wasn't actually possessed by some sort of spirit, then she was definitely in communication with one.   In some ways, we can be reassured by the fact that the writers have consistently stated that they will never reveal if the Maker is real or not.    To my mind, the whole history given by Andraste, supposedly given to her by the Maker, has been thrown into question by the revelations from Solas concerning the Veil, but it is still possible to reconcile the two.   However, if it was suddenly revealed that in a previous incarnation Mythal occupied Andraste, that would pretty much refute any idea of the Maker, except as an extremely abstract idea, which is as good as saying, there is no Maker.

 

I do wonder about the Lady of the Skies though.   She was the leaf eared lover of Tyrdda Brightaxe and could possibly have been an elf with the spirit of Mythal within her.   I am pretty certain she had to have been some sort of spirit but then there are a lot of spirits in the Fade.    May be the Lady of the Skies was more like the Lady of the Forest, in which case both were types of spirit that don't fall under the normal classifications.

[straykat]

I would sooner prefer Andraste was deluded than another elven possession story. And Shartan being a reckless, even foolhardy rebel.

[Reznore57]

Andraste is an headache , the Chant of Light seems very human motivated to me , a backlash against Tevinter.It reins in magic , says stay away from the Golden City , the Old Gods are evilz , Tevinter is evilz , Blood magic is evilz , hurting people is evilz , sing the Chant of Light and everything will be alright!

Somehow Andraste wasn't very concerned by the Blight , perhaps because at the time only one Blight happened and they thought there might not be a second one.

But even Flemythal as far as DAO warns the Blight is very important and defeating it is a priority.She says the rest is trivial and what sucks is mortals are too often obsessed with their own issues .

 

Something also strange is when Andraste was busy on her crusade , Tevinter was also busy studying the fade in Kirkwall , in Aeonar ...Tevinter was onto something , I don't know what , but whatever studies they were doing they were cut short.

 

Anyway if say Andraste was indeed hearing something , well we had Tevinter who was pushed by their Gods in the fade to go further as far as magic and the fade is concerned....

And then Andraste hears from the fade to stop all of that and just trust a higher power will make everything alright.

If she did hear something , I feel like it wasn't the "Maker" .