42 ответов в этой теме

[straykat]

Andraste is an headache , the Chant of Light seems very human motivated to me , a backlash against Tevinter.It reins in magic , says stay away from the Golden City , the Old Gods are evilz , Tevinter is evilz , Blood magic is evilz , hurting people is evilz , sing the Chant of Light and everything will be alright!

Somehow Andraste wasn't very concerned by the Blight , perhaps because at the time only one Blight happened and they thought there might not be a second one.

But even Flemythal as far as DAO warns the Blight is very important and defeating it is a priority.She says the rest is trivial and what sucks is mortals are too often obsessed with their own issues .

 

Something also strange is when Andraste was busy on her crusade , Tevinter was also busy studying the fade in Kirkwall , in Aeonar ...Tevinter was onto something , I don't know what , but whatever studies they were doing they were cut short.

 

Anyway if say Andraste was indeed hearing something , well we had Tevinter who was pushed by their Gods in the fade to go further as far as magic and the fade is concerned....

And then Andraste hears from the fade to stop all of that and just trust a higher power will make everything alright.

If she did hear something , I feel like it wasn't the "Maker" .

 

The Bight is a big part of her teachings. It's a punishment. The Maker is pissed and left our sorry asses. Etc.

 

Secondly, she comes from the first aftermath of a post-Blight world..where everything is being rethought and everything is in chaos. Without it, her movement would have never taken wing. So it's a big part of understanding Andraste, I think. By that point, everyone was questioning the Tevinter religion and the old gods. They had turned on them and were seeking something else. It isn't just her who said the old gods and blood magic was evil. The world was reassessing itself by that point.

 

I don't care if she was crazy or there really is a Maker. She freed slaves. Or freed southern Thedas at least. Bottom line. And apparently, Shartan did too. I can't find fault with that. It's like worrying about Martin Luther King's theology, when what matters is his work in civil rights. Or rather, I find the coolness in her religion through her actions. Not whether I can count how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[ModernAcademic]

I just don't see the relation. Flemeth was a brunette from Highever, in the Towers age...long after Andraste. Conobar had to keep Flemeth secret, because she was a mage. The Chantry was already strong by this point. And Conobar was the precursor to the Cousland family. It was his chief guard who took over the estate and started the Couslands. She isn't that old, relatively speaking. Andraste was a child of fishermen in ancient Denerim. And slaves or something. The Imperium still ruled. There was no Conobar or anything like it yet.

 

I think the Flemeth story has pretty much been solved at this point. She was a fleeing woman, who stumbled upon the dormant spirit of what was left from Mythal.

 

What if Andraste met a mysterious wisp who talked to her and, after hearing what it said, she accepted that wisp into her soul?

 

After Andraste died, the wisp would have moved on through the ages seeking other bodies to inhabit until it found Flemeth.

 

Mythal could've inhabited both women and turned them into the legendary figures they were by sharing her wisdom and power with them.

 

It's just an idea. A crazy one, of course.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

What if Andraste met a mysterious wisp who talked to her and, after hearing what it said, she accepted that wisp into her soul?

 

After Andraste died, the wisp would have moved on through the ages seeking other bodies to inhabit until it found Flemeth.

 

Mythal could've inhabited both women and turned them into the legendary figures they were by sharing her wisdom and power with them.

 

It's just an idea. A crazy one, of course.

 

It's not a crazy idea at all. It used to be, but not anymore since we now know that Flemeth and Fen'Harel are friends and are working together. 

So if Mythal really were Andraste then Fen'Harel probably were Shartan and whatever they intended didn't go as they planned (the Dales being annexed by Orlais, foundation of a "anti-elven" chantry and more things...). 

[Gervaise]

Mythal could have assisted Andraste but I will be very disillusioned if they say that Shartan was really Solas.    For a start off this would mean that Solas was again lying through his teeth when he said he had been asleep since he raised the Veil and only woke up a year before the events in DAI.    It would also deprive us of a genuine heroic elven figure, who was a slave in the Imperium and inspired his fellow elves to free themselves, working with other races to achieve this.    It would also mean the book we gave Fenris "A Slave's Life" was not by Shartan (it didn't actually have to have been written by him but he could have recounted his experiences to one of his followers.   Also what did that make the spirit in the Gauntlet?   

 

I think it is enough that we discovered Flemeth was co-existing with Mythal and Solas was really Fen'Harel.    We don't need every major figure in history really be the manifestation of an elven god.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

For a start off this would mean that Solas was again lying through his teeth when he said he had been asleep since he raised the Veil and only woke up a year before the events in DAI.

 

 

I don't agree with you here. You're right that he states that he woke up a year before he joined the Inquisition. However, he doesn't say anything about it being the only time he's woken up since he sealed the gods away.

 

I think it's pretty likely he woke up before, tried to fix things and then went back to sleep again only to find everything even worse than before. 

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't agree with you here. You're right that he states that he woke up a year before he joined the Inquisition. However, he doesn't say anything about it being the only time he's woken up since he sealed the gods away.

I think it's pretty likely he woke up before, tried to fix things and then went back to sleep again only to find everything even worse than before.

Why is he going to sleep at all? What would be the point of that?

Seems like a dumb thing to do. I believe that if someone is personally invested in the wellbeing of something that they should stick around to monitor it.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

Why is he going to sleep at all? What would be the point of that?

Seems like a dumb thing to do. I believe that if someone is personally invested in the wellbeing of something that they should stick around to monitor it.

 

Dumb thing or not, he did it and probably more times than one. And I do think he was monitoring it a bit from the fade. 

 

His reasons for the long sleeps (other than just connecting better to the fade) will probably be revealed later (hopefully). There has to be a really good reason for this. 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Dumb thing or not, he did it and probably more times than one. And I do think he was monitoring it a bit from the fade.

His reasons for the long sleeps (other than just connecting better to the fade) will probably be revealed later (hopefully). There has to be a really good reason for this.

I would assume he was sleeping to recover some of his power. I mean he reordered all of reality that has to take it out of you. Plus, Elvhes took centuries just to say hello in the old days, maybe he just took the equivalent of a five-pin power nap?

Also random thought, who says he had to wake up to be Spartan? Perhaps he just wandered into elven dreams inspiring their actions without physically being there.

[Gervaise]

Inspiring/influencing them from the Fade would actually fit with Dalish beliefs about what the ancients were capable of.   In Masked Empire Mihris says that from Uthenera they could see the whole world, tell their followers were their enemies would be and in what numbers and send spirits to do their bidding and aid them.  Felassan mocks this beleif, which means it all the more likely it was true, just not necessarily for all the ancients but only certain very powerful ones.   All that sounds very much in keeping with what Solas could do if he chose.    He was certainly able to contact his agents through the Fade and apparently touched the minds of people and spirits throughout the world.   So giving Shartan an inspirational vision seems well within his capabilities.  

[Evil Asch]

Mythal could have assisted Andraste but I will be very disillusioned if they say that Shartan was really Solas.    For a start off this would mean that Solas was again lying through his teeth when he said he had been asleep since he raised the Veil and only woke up a year before the events in DAI.    It would also deprive us of a genuine heroic elven figure, who was a slave in the Imperium and inspired his fellow elves to free themselves, working with other races to achieve this.    It would also mean the book we gave Fenris "A Slave's Life" was not by Shartan (it didn't actually have to have been written by him but he could have recounted his experiences to one of his followers.   Also what did that make the spirit in the Gauntlet?  

 

Inspiring/influencing them from the Fade would actually fit with Dalish beliefs about what the ancients were capable of.   In Masked Empire Mihris says that from Uthenera they could see the whole world, tell their followers were their enemies would be and in what numbers and send spirits to do their bidding and aid them.  Felassan mocks this beleif, which means it all the more likely it was true, just not necessarily for all the ancients but only certain very powerful ones.   All that sounds very much in keeping with what Solas could do if he chose.    He was certainly able to contact his agents through the Fade and apparently touched the minds of people and spirits throughout the world.   So giving Shartan an inspirational vision seems well within his capabilities.  

This. 

When Solas is explaining his history to the inquisitor, especially if it's a romanced Lavellan, he has very little if any known reason to lie or obfuscate. He genuinely believes the inquisitor can't stop him but will die trying.

 

I think it's really really unlikely he would lie about when he woke up. Further, if he had woken up and masqueraded as Shartan I think his shock and revulsion at contemporary Thedosian culture and politics would have been far less visceral, a lot of his opinions especially regarding Qunari and the Dalish are more reactionary than analytical (not that he would agree).

It's possible that as he slept he did influence the politics and culture of his people, there are the Dalish after all, but the end result seems to catch him off guard and fill him with horror and grief. I don't recall if he flat out states or implies that he has attempted to educate contemporary persons about the true history of the Dalish / Elvehn but if he only had a year of consciousness he either tried via the Fade or made his mind up after getting laugh at / scorned like once.

TL;DR It's unlikely he lied about waking up a year before the Inquisition and he's weirdly sensitive / reactionary. Like damn, Solas they're already off your lawn settle down.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Nope. Don't buy it.

If he slept to recover his power then he might as well have stayed awake and guided his people personally because he woke up pretty weak. It just wasn't worth it. Look where his people are. If he was there to guide them from the beginning I doubt that they would be in such a pitiful position.

After he pulled his nonsense he foolishly abandoned them to go sleep it off and his people have suffered ever since.

Even if he was Shartan the smarter move would have been to rise to the top of the Tevinter Imperium and use that power to accomplish his goals. Whatever they are. Far better than opposing this group that eventually wins anyway.

[Evil Asch]

Nope. Don't buy it.

If he slept to recover his power then he might as well have stayed awake and guided his people personally because he woke up pretty weak.

 

Interesting point, he admits that he locked his power in the orb he gave Corypheus so it's hard to say if he slept to regain his power or simply to survive (assuming he's not lying and really did sleep) we don't know how he separated reality and the fade or what toll it took on him. Maybe he slept to recover.

[Zero]

I don't agree with you here. You're right that he states that he woke up a year before he joined the Inquisition. However, he doesn't say anything about it being the only time he's woken up since he sealed the gods away.

 

I think it's pretty likely he woke up before, tried to fix things and then went back to sleep again only to find everything even worse than before. 

 

If he was awake at that point, then his actions in Inquisition, specially in Trespasser, are illogical.

 

Why he would not destroy the Veil at that time? In that point of history, Thedas was as f***d as is in the Dragon Age: no "true arian" elves (no immortal, without memories of their past, etc), a world full of Tranquil, and that stuff he points out in Trespasser as his reason to destroy the world. Why he could care to free a bunch of elven slaves he didn't even consider to be elves?

[Ghost Gal]

Shartan was a bald elf? Well, everyone knows there was only one bald elf in the history of Thedas. He MUST have been Solas!

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

If he was awake at that point, then his actions in Inquisition, specially in Trespasser, are illogical.

 

Why he would not destroy the Veil at that time? In that point of history, Thedas was as f***d as is in the Dragon Age: no "true arian" elves (no immortal, without memories of their past, etc), a world full of Tranquil, and that stuff he points out in Trespasser as his reason to destroy the world. Why he could care to free a bunch of elven slaves he didn't even consider to be elves?

 

 

I don't think he planned to destroy the veil before. I think he tried to make the world better but he only made it worse every time he tried. Therefore he's likely trying something very different next time (which means take down the veil when he's ready to do it since the upcoming battle with the Evanuris will be anything but easy). 

 

Solas most likely fell asleep three times. First one was after banishing the Evanuris (and freeing the Elves). Second time was when he woke up to find the elven nations crushed and his people being slaves to Tevinter (so Solas/Shartan helped free them and then created the Dales, a land for the elves). Third time he woke up and the Dales had been crushed and elves were living as second class citizens. His vision of free elves didn't turn out well in any of his attempts to make it better. Solas tried again and again to make things better but it ended up worse or the same. I think the following is interesting...

 

 

 

Solas asks the Inquisitor what he/she is going to do with the power of the Well of Sorrows. If the Inquisitor picks "I'll make the world better", Solas say this: 

 

Solas: "You would risk everything you have in the hope that the future is better? What if it isn't? What if you wake up to find that the future you shaped is worse than what was?". 

(From clip (starts at 1:20), https://youtu.be/eanpLmb98lo?t=1m20s )

 

My interpretation of this conversation is that he's talking about himself here. He did wake up to find that the future wasn't better... 

[Evil Asch]

Solas asks the Inquisitor what he/she is going to do with the power of the Well of Sorrows. If the Inquisitor picks "I'll make the world better", Solas say this: 

 

Solas: "You would risk everything you have in the hope that the future is better? What if it isn't? What if you wake up to find that the future you shaped is worse than what was?". 

(From clip (starts at 1:20), https://youtu.be/eanpLmb98lo?t=1m20s )

 

My interpretation of this conversation is that he's talking about himself here. He did wake up to find that the future wasn't better... 

 

Completely agree regarding the conversation but I still seriously doubt he woke up more than once. Why would he bother lying to a romanced Lavellan about it? And if he had been Shartan as well as Fen'Harel he could have mitigated his reputation as the Dread Wolf with that knowledge too.

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

Completely agree regarding the conversation but I still seriously doubt he woke up more than once. Why would he bother lying to a romanced Lavellan about it? And if he had been Shartan as well as Fen'Harel he could have mitigated his reputation as the Dread Wolf with that knowledge too.

 

It wouldn't be a lie since he never stated he only woke up once. It would only be leaving out information, which he does pretty often. 

 

 

I think everybody should watch this video if you haven't already: 

 

In this video I think she missed or doesn't like the theory about Andraste = Flemeth/Mythal, which is a theory that I strongly support. Otherwise I think she mostly looks at this the way I do. Very good information to think about regarding this topic. 

[Gervaise]

The thing is the time scales don't pan out nice and neatly as she suggests in the video.    The elves first felt the Quickening in -2850 Ancient, so Solas must have raised the Veil around this time.    Then the fall of the city in Arlathan Forest (which may or may not have been the actual Arlathan) was in -975 Ancient.  So in fact it was nearly 2000 years between these two and of course there is no reason why Solas would have been awake at that time.   Andraste was born in -203 Ancient and started hearing her voices whilst still quite young before her marriage to Maferath.    It was after her marriage that she was actually taken prisoner by Tevinter slavers, although they never took her to the Imperium proper and Maferath managed to negotiate her release since she was needed to keep her tribes on side with him.  She started openly preaching of the Maker in -186 and fought the Battle of Valarian Fields in -171.    So if Solas had woken and assumed the name of Shartan at that time or a little before, it was only 800 years since the Fall of Arlathan.   Then when he was killed trying to free Andraste from the stake - yes Shartan was struck down doing that, he would have become a wisp and had to reform in the Fade, find another host and then return in 940 or thereabouts, a little over 1000 years between the two.   So there is not the nice, neat spacing of 1,000 years/1,000 years between events.

 

Solas categorically says he is not like Flemeth/Mythal and is like he has always been.   Therefore he could not have  been Shartan himself because Shartan died with a 100 of his fellow elves trying to rescue Andraste from the stake.   Shartan is called the Liberator in this part of the story, which may account for it still being in the Chant, because that concealed who he and "his People" really were.   It was stated in the Dalish version of events in DAO that the elven heroes died on the bonfires too, so any not killed by the arrows that felled them were likely burned at the stake or they simply burned the dead bodies to be on the safe side. (The Tevinter did know all about using bodies in Necromancy after all).  So not even a body left of Shartan to revive.

 

That chap in the checkered robes is meant to be Havard, who was likewise struck down and left for dead but at Andraste's capture.  By the time he got to Minrathous he was too late to save Andraste but unlike Shartan he did have the benefit of being able to touch her ashes and be restored.   The picture then shows him carrying her ashes back down south in the urn.   So there is nothing sinister about his lack of pointed ears because he was human.    He leans on a staff not because he was a mage but simply for support. 

 

Shartan could have been an agent of Solas, who he instructed from the Fade to wake from uthenera and assist Andraste but that seems unlikely since Solas seems to have no interest in saving anyone but his own People and so would be unlikely to waste his followers in that way.

 

Shartan is what he is claimed to be, an elven slave who fought for his freedom and likely inspired his followers with an ancient elven folktale of a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants, never realising that he was actually recounting the story of Fen'Harel's fight against the Evanuris.    This tale then got mixed into the actual history of Shartan, probably because the human scholars who noted things down got confused about the different stories they were being told by the elves.   His story was handed down in the Dales verbally and it wasn't actually put in writing until 1:8, ironically at the behest of the first Divine.