31 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

So we know that there are 3 possible results for who becomes Divine. The candidates are Cassandra, Leliana and Vivienne. Regardless of who is chosen, there are dramatic changes to several policies when it comes to things like mages, templars and general Chantry policy.

 

But what I want to discuss is if these changes will last.

 

Cassandra and her policies may be ok seeing as how her reforms consists of a 'healthy' blend of tradition and reform, but Divines like Leliana and Vivienne have imposed rather radical changes. They range from giving mages political power (which is banned/frowned upon) to allowing re-implementing the Canticle of Shartan as part of the Chant (which is very controversial).

 

Of the three possible candidates, these are the two possible divines that incite serious opposition with their policies. Vivienne has to deal with outright revolts on several occasions, and Leliana has to deal with opposing sects that despise her new policies. Hell, even Divine Cassandra may have opposition--it is entirely possible that she encounters opposition within the Chantry that demand a return to the status quo.

 

But as with many changes that are unpopular, these reforms are only as strong as circumstances will allow, and they are mostly dependent on if they can be upheld well after the Divine's passing.

 

So I want to see what you guys think. Will these reforms be retracted once the Divine is dead? Or will they somehow last even after they have left the Sunburst Throne?

[SandiKay0]

Viviene's reforms I don't think will last it is giving the south a taste of a mage in power. The majority will believe she is the first step to tevinter.

As for Leliana it depends on whether or not she was hardened. Hardened probably not, because they are afraid, the next divine will try to remove the fear.

Cassandra is moving slowly, I think hers will last past her.

[Voidinist]

All three have the potential of their work being destroyed in the future.

 

After Leliana, the new Divine may as well claim Vivienne's new Circle system as the Chantry's and the College will probably be torn down at the first hint of blood magic. The Canticle of Shartan will probably be removed from the canon Chant again to appease popular demand.

 

We don't know what the specifics are of Cassandra's reforms. They might last for a few generations. She also may be too wishy-washy with her reforms that it can easily revert. I personally don't see what she's doing so differently from the old Chantry. All I'm seeing is "reform" everywhere and her idea of what the Circle/Seekers/Templar order/Chantry should be with no explanation on how to get those results. That's entirely Bioware's fault for shoving these decisions under the rug by Trespasser, though.

 

Vivienne granted the Circle more freedom and more responsibility than ever before, firmly leashed a new Templar order to her hand, magnanimously allowed the College to form, and she has the most peaceful outcome with the College by Trespasser. Vivienne is strong enough to maintain this much order and her work lasting depends on if future Divines are as strong, which is doubtful. The Silver Shield being canon will also probably be a problem if she doesn't outright crush it like she she implies she will in Trespasser.

 

But that's all pretty cynical. If Vivienne allowed mages to be a part of the Chantry as her approval indicates and the new Chantry allowing the other races to join under Leliana (maybe Cassandra too in the future) may be what will make their changes last. They will have a say in who becomes Divine, won't they?

[myahele]

I might not matter if/ when Solas succeeds with his plans.

 

In either case, with the (city?) elves supporting him and depending on how bad the war will get, then I believe elf rights will diminish in the aftermath assuming Thedas beats him.

[Xerrai]

I might not matter if/ when Solas succeeds with his plans.

 

In either case, with the (city?) elves supporting him and depending on how bad the war will get, then I believe elf rights will diminish in the aftermath assuming Thedas beats him.

But that in turn depends on if Thedas largely acknowledges/knows of the threat posed by Solas. Right now the only thing most world powers are willing to agree on is that elves are disappearing in large numbers, but what we don't know is if they even acknowledge the "Dread Wolf" to even be a real threat, or even believe that he is real at all. The game wasn't clear.

 

For elven right to be greatly diminish any further than they already are, the threat of the Dread Wolf has be known. For that to happen, Solas must either get really close to accomplishing his plan to the point that people start noticing its effects, or he has to make outright large moves with his increased elven forces to the point where it becomes apparent enough that other countries that there is indeed an elven rebel leading a elven army.

[Ash Wind]

Depends on one thing and one thing only... the direction the devs (more correctly, where the marketing tells them they might sell 3 more copies) go. 

 

In DAO I recall a Dailish Elf Warden securing part of the Hinterlands as a perm home for the Dailish.... retconned...

 

And there was something about a Mage Warden securing new freedoms for the Tower mages... retconned.

 

From the 'End' titles are 'now' considered merely hearsay to absolute retcons of in-game choices, the DA devs have proven that they have absolutely no clue what will happen going forward and have no respect for the last story they told. What might sell a few more copies is the only consideration.

 

For DA2, it was DAO was a broken piece of garbage. For DAI, it was DA2 was a seriously flawed experiment.

 

At least the absolute lack of meaningful choice in the MMO fetch quest DAI will result in little frustration when those non-choices are not recognized in future installments. 

 

DA4 will probably start with Solas forgetting about his plans and opening a road side taco stand.

[Dabrikishaw]

The Divine's reforms will last as long as Bioware wants them to.

[Iakus]

Viviene's reforms I don't think will last it is giving the south a taste of a mage in power. The majority will believe she is the first step to tevinter.

As for Leliana it depends on whether or not she was hardened. Hardened probably not, because they are afraid, the next divine will try to remove the fear.

Cassandra is moving slowly, I think hers will last past her.

Vivienne's reforms are actually the smallest.  She cleans house with the Templars and keeps them on a short leash, and she gives the Circle of Magi greater freedom and more responsibility.  But she leaves the underlying system intact.  The only major change she brings about is setting the precedent for a mage to be Divine in the southern Chantry.

 

As for the changes any of the Divines bring about, ultimately, it would depend on 

 

1) how popular the changes are

2) how much influence she can bring to bear to hold these changes in place 

3) How long she lives, and if her successor will continue the reforms.  If they last long enough to become the new normal, the changes will likely stay.

[Iakus]

The Divine's reforms will last as long as Bioware wants them to.

"I think mages should be free in Ferelden"

"No"

 

[Xerrai]

Depends on one thing and one thing only... the direction the devs (more correctly, where the marketing tells them they might sell 3 more copies) go. 

 

In DAO I recall a Dailish Elf Warden securing part of the Hinterlands as a perm home for the Dailish.... retconned...

 

And there was something about a Mage Warden securing new freedoms for the Tower mages... retconned.

 

From the 'End' titles are 'now' considered merely hearsay to absolute retcons of in-game choices, the DA devs have proven that they have absolutely no clue what will happen going forward and have no respect for the last story they told. What might sell a few more copies is the only consideration.

 

For DA2, it was DAO was a broken piece of garbage. For DAI, it was DA2 was a seriously flawed experiment.

 

At least the absolute lack of meaningful choice in the MMO fetch quest DAI will result in little frustration when those non-choices are not recognized in future installments. 

 

DA4 will probably start with Solas forgetting about his plans and opening a road side taco stand.

That's kinda what I'm afraid of.

I'm hoping they at least pay lip service to how the Divine acts though--the next game is set in Tevinter after all. Wouldn't be to out of place to neither really feel nor really pay much attention to whatever the White Divine may be doing in that country. Codex entries and the occasional NPC comment would be enough, and setting makes it to where no substantial variant versions of NPCs/dialogue/politics will be needed because of how Tevinter may be 'removed' from the whole ordeal.

 

But that's just my optimism talking. In truth, I wouldn't be surprised if Mage/Templar relations and Circle policies have not really changed when DA4 comes out.

[LightningPoodle]

Heh, no. Once again, BioWare have written themselves into a stupid corner. The whole Divine thing will now happen either in a ten minute cameo where you can't actually do anything about it or it will be resolved in codex entries where you can't do anything about it.

No two Divines will have the same consequences. One might last longer, or crumble for a completely different matter. Are we expecting BioWare to write four different arcs for this situation where we can actually help them? If you do, prepare your expectations to shrivel up like a cold ball sack.

[Gileadan]

Maybe Councillor Anderson could give his opinion on that?

[LightningPoodle]

Maybe Councillor Anderson could give his opinion on that?

 

Brief few minutes where you can't do anything with it either way, and in ME3 they removed him as Councillor and put Udina in there regardless of your choice anyway...

[straykat]

I get the feeling it really doesn't matter. They've gone overboard with the changes to Southern Thedas that it can't be done justice now....whatever the case.

 

it's like the galaxy changing in ME3.

[Jackums]

Cassandra's system itself would likely have the greatest longevity.

 

But the changes, societal and cultural, would likely be more significant and lasting in the Vivienne and Leliana routes. The direction of those changes is the unknown factor.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

No because the Evanuris will soon return into the world.

[vbibbi]

They will all amount to the same thing. Trespasser epilogues already show the three Divines' platforms heading toward a single world state.

[GoldenGail3]

Probaly not... Becuase we have no choices in the matter...

[Iakus]

I get the feeling it really doesn't matter. They've gone overboard with the changes to Southern Thedas that it can't be done justice now....whatever the case.

 

it's like the galaxy changing in ME3.

Thus why after Trespasser "Divine Victoria" always has a College of Enchanters and a Circle of Magi locking horns.

[mrs_anomaly]

Depends on one thing and one thing only... the direction the devs (more correctly, where the marketing tells them they might sell 3 more copies) go. 

 

In DAO I recall a Dailish Elf Warden securing part of the Hinterlands as a perm home for the Dailish.... retconned...

 

And there was something about a Mage Warden securing new freedoms for the Tower mages... retconned.

 

From the 'End' titles are 'now' considered merely hearsay to absolute retcons of in-game choices, the DA devs have proven that they have absolutely no clue what will happen going forward and have no respect for the last story they told. What might sell a few more copies is the only consideration.

 

For DA2, it was DAO was a broken piece of garbage. For DAI, it was DA2 was a seriously flawed experiment.

 

At least the absolute lack of meaningful choice in the MMO fetch quest DAI will result in little frustration when those non-choices are not recognized in future installments. 

 

DA4 will probably start with Solas forgetting about his plans and opening a road side taco stand.

 

 

Thoughts- DAO retconning the Hinterlands area for the Dalish- just like the US   happens IRL too!

 

Addtionally I would prefer Solas having an epic taco stand in DA4 as an option then my Inquisitor can make salsa for him and be married to him 

 

The thing I don't see a lot of folks talking about when it comes to the themes of Bioware (which I have only played the entire ME and DA series) is that they do love to hammer us over the head about groups/societies/companies/organizations falling apart due to corruption. 

 

 

So I figure that by DA4 everything will be at least kind of fubar. 

[straykat]

Thus why after Trespasser "Divine Victoria" always has a College of Enchanters and a Circle of Magi locking horns.

 

I can only hope Leliana's reforms on elves and other races makes a difference. While Cassandra is openminded, I think it's a bit unique to Leli.

 

But I don't expect to see the results of even that. Let alone mages.

[mrs_anomaly]

Seems to me you wouldn't want to alienate one of your most powerful segments (mages) of a potential army against the Qun and or Tevinter. Seems short sighted and dumb to me- but what do I know? 

[straykat]

Seems to me you wouldn't want to alienate one of your most powerful segments (mages) of a potential army against the Qun and or Tevinter. Seems short sighted and dumb to me- but what do I know? 

 

I feel like I'm directly challenging both of them with Divine Leli.

 

In addition to challenging Solas. A Chantry that strongly supports elves would give them an alternative.. some hope.. instead of whatever it is he's up to.

 

So I'd definitely like to see the results, rather than Southern Thedas sinking into obscurity. Or being well off, but never affecting anything outside the South.

[mrs_anomaly]

I feel like I'm directly challenging both of them with Divine Leli.

 

In addition to challenging Solas. A Chantry that strongly supports elves would give them an alternative.. some hope.. instead of whatever it is he's up to.

 

So I'd definitely like to see the results, rather than Southern Thedas sinking into obscurity. Or being well off, but never affecting anything outside the South.

 

 

If you're an elf in Thedas, chances are Solas' message of a new world with elves being the ultimate leaders is strongly appealing I imagine. For at least a chunk of them. But it doesn't make sense to me- elves of the era of DAI are just more current day fodder for the revolution of Solas if he rips down the veil- they are modern and not ancient Elvhen that are connected to the fade like his own people so if they understood that it makes sense ultimately for them to side with the modern day Thedas. 

 

Anyway I like going with Leli for the Divine but after I saw her epilogue slide- oh man- no more. I go Cassandra everytime now. I just agree with Leli 100% about what needs to happen but God Biower has determined doing good things for more tolerance in Thedas means huge amounts of killing and bloodshed. 

[Secret Rare]

Thus why after Trespasser "Divine Victoria" always has a College of Enchanters and a Circle of Magi locking horns.

Bioware illusions of choices are hardly something new,whenever there are divergent paths they will likely redirect to the same plaza.