254 réponses à ce sujet

[Lezio]

I'm not talking about the little things we can all put into the character to make him/her feel more alive and imperfect, i'm talking about the character concept in general

 

I'm replaying Inquisition, and i'm kind of getting the impression that the Inquisitor is never allowed to screw up (apart from War Table missions, and even then it's never acknowledged) and basically everything s/he gets is handed to him/her.

 

I mean, for example, Hawke has to work, what, 2 years to actually elevate herself above her status of refugee and actually get some nice things. The same can be said of The Warden, he has to basically face the failure of Ostagar's battle(and Loghain's treachery) throughout the whole game. The Inquisitor "fails" at Haven and an awesome castle is handed to him without actually having to do anything to earn it (Soldier's Peak here comes to mind, we actually had to fight for that fortress)

 

The Exalted Council, as much as i enjoyed trespasser, is basically just one big farce that ends with The Inquisitor doing whatever the hell s/he wants even s/he antagonized every member of it. Here the Landsmeet comes to mind, even with an army at his back The Warden actually needed to earn the support of the Lords, and he could actually lose it if he failed at it

 

Same things can be said about the whole Orleasian plot that can be summarized by: shows up, owns everyone at their own Game, decides who gets the crown and bye. This could be compared with Orzammar, where we actually had to play the dwarves' game (and even if someone may call the the 1st few missions for Bhelen/Harrowmont "boring" i think they were made to get acroos the point that we needed them so we had to play nice) and, in the end, we got to decide who would get the crown only because we had the backing of a Paragon.

 

To summarize, playing as The Inquisitor i never actually feel rewarded because everything gets handed to me and because it's just.... too easy to do whatever the hell i want without repercussions

 

Again, i'm not talking about my Inquisitor or yours, i'm talking about the character in general

 

Am i the only one who got this impression?

[sim-ran]

Only in the way that RPG PCs are generally Mary Sue's.

Which is fine by me.

[Obliviousmiss]

The one person who has the key to closing the rifts, saving the world, and defeating Corypheus is the Inquisitor.... and the anchor is on his/ her hand. 

 

You don't want them running away, right? Everyone's doomed if they do....so give them a few luxuries to make sure they stay around.

 

That's how I see it. 

[Iakus]

I'd say the Inquisitor is more a Special Snowflake than a Mary Sue.  A Sue character has no real flaws, and the Inquisitor can have flaws if you RP such.

 

But with the Anchor, the Inquisitor is "special" and is absolutely vital to stopping Corypheus and sealing the Breach.

 

Edit: Also just want to add:  being a Special Snowflake is not necessarily a bad thing.  As the PC, the plot kinda revolves around your character anyway, so adding a bit of story element to explain that isn't exactly unheard of

[n7stormrunner]

yep. most bioware protagonist have at least some shades of the mary sue. the inquisitor  is a pretty textbook example of one done right.

[Ghost Gal]

BRIEF EDIT: All player characters are treated as SPESHUL, but I think it comes in different doses and flavors, and there are different doses and flavors that different people are willing to live with. Personally:

 

I rather disagree about the Inquisitor. No one really treats you like you're inherently special just for existing, you're just some random johnny ("and I do mean random") who happened to be the only survivor of a giant explosion, which at first causes them to treat you with suspicion and hostility. Then you turned out to have the key to closing the giant hole in the sky that would have swallowed the world. At least everyone treats you with fear and suspicion at first and you have to actually prove you're useful before they start falling to their knees and treating you like every other PC.

 

I'd say Cousland is a bigger Mary Sue since the entire family is treated as insufferably perfect, from historical conception to present-day, and everyone falls to their knees and worships the ground you walk on from the very beginning just for existing; just for being a Cousland. (Because apparently the Couslands have this genetic, inherent superiority that everyone can Just Tell.)

 

Personally, I also think Hawke is a better example of a Sue. Yeah, you have to work your way up to Hightown, but from the very beginning everyone s/he meets treats Hawke as Important. Fighting for your life in darkspawn-infested Lothering because you and your family weren't smart enough to get out of dodge, then FLEMETH goes out of her way to rescue you and give you her life locket because somehow she could tell from a faraway glance that Hawke is Special. You arrive at Kirkwall and get treated like just another refugee for a few days, but then after helping the guards with a kerfuffle that they could have handled on their own the guard is like, "WOW! Thank you so much for your help! Look, I don't normally do this for refugees, but because it's you I'll send a message that'll help arrange you to get into the city." Then you have a fade-to-black time skip and suddenly Hawke is strutting around Kirkwall like the Bee's Knees, with everyone constantly fawning over and gazing admirably at Hawke like s/he is special and important and a person of consequence in the city even though s/he was just a smuggler/mercenary and now acts as a glorified errand boy. Heck, the very first time you approach Bartrand for a job, Varric instantly pulls you aside and offers you a job as an EQUAL PARTNER to him and his brother because he could just tell by your reputation that you're That Important. And then, of course, everyone treats Hawke like s/he is important long before s/he actually moves to Hightown or saves Kirkwall at the end of Act II. (Even companions! Fenris has been on the run from Danarius for years and never stayed in one place for too long for fear of getting caught, but then you help him with one quest and suddenly Fenris feels safe enough to stick around for years and Danarius instantly lays off him for three year intervals because they can instantly tell that the All Important Hawke--some former smuggler or mercenary refugee living in Lowtown--is now watching over him.) Even by DA everyone can't stop gushing over how awesome and special and amazing Hawke is every time s/he is brought up in conversation, or in person.

[KaiserShep]

Dunno if the Landsmeet is the best example. You can lose, but that just means you have to engage in combat to ultimately win. The Warden must succeed in getting support to go forward.

[Iadro]

It is impossible for an unadorned beige bowl of plain oat porridge, roughly the size of a small village yet with only eight crude wooden spoons available next to it, to be a Mary Sue.

[Lezio]

Dunno if the Landsmeet is the best example. You can lose, but that just means you have to engage in combat to ultimately win. The Warden must succeed in getting support to go forward.

 

I think the point still stands, though, especially if compared to the Exalted Council. In the latter you can be an-a-hole to everyone and still get to decide the future of The Inquisition, even though everyone during Trespasser tells you can't just do as you please(which is what ends up happening), in the Landsmeetyou can be a-hole..... and lose. Of course then the duel happens, because the plot demands it, but you/The Warden still lost, much like Loghain does if The Warden wins

[Terodil]

I agree with the others. Besides, it's not as if the game didn't tell you when it / some people thought you messed up. Going for the mages in the first place gets called a mistake more than once, recruiting them even more so. Iron Bull is another example where 'messing up' (by whatever standard) gets you called out. You can lose war table missions. There's enough chance for failure imo, and the ultimate failure ("game over") cannot be discarded either.

Besides, I don't get this intense hatred some seem to feel towards a so-called 'Mary Sue'. As a PC in a story-driven RPG, you need to be special, and the nature of the medium inherently brings some 'Mary Sueness' with it. It's different with a, say, Bethesda-style RPG (though even they have elements of this for obvious reasons), because it's so sandbox, so open-world, that story doesn't matter (much). But as soon as there's a story to be told with the protagonist somewhat at the center, for agency reasons, the protagonist stops being a nobody and starts being... 'he'/'she'/'I'.

I'd even argue that Hawke, decried as the prototypical Mary Sue above, is anything but. Hawke fails. Again and again. She never makes a difference. She's the typical hero in a greek tragedy, doomed to watch people fall and plans crumble, powerless to do anything of impact.

[Catilina]

[..]

 

Personally, I also think Hawke is a better example of a Sue. Yeah, you have to work your way up to Hightown, but from the very beginning everyone s/he meets treats Hawke as Important. Fighting for your life in darkspawn-infested Lothering because you and your family weren't smart enough to get out of dodge, then FLEMETH goes out of her way to rescue you and give you her life locket because somehow she could tell from a faraway glance that Hawke is Special. You arrive at Kirkwall and get treated like just another refugee for a few days, but then after helping the guards with a kerfuffle that they could have handled on their own the guard is like, "WOW! Thank you so much for your help! Look, I don't normally do this for refugees, but because it's you I'll send a message that'll help arrange you to get into the city." Then you have a fade-to-black time skip and suddenly Hawke is strutting around Kirkwall like the Bee's Knees, with everyone constantly fawning over and gazing admirably at Hawke like s/he is special and important and a person of consequence in the city even though s/he was just a smuggler/mercenary and now acts as a glorified errand boy. Heck, the very first time you approach Bartrand for a job, Varric instantly pulls you aside and offers you a job as an EQUAL PARTNER to him and his brother because he could just tell by your reputation that you're That Important. And then, of course, everyone treats Hawke like s/he is important long before s/he actually moves to Hightown or saves Kirkwall at the end of Act II. (Even companions! Fenris has been on the run from Danarius for years and never stayed in one place for too long for fear of getting caught, but then you help him with one quest and suddenly Fenris feels safe enough to stick around for years and Danarius instantly lays off him for three year intervals because they can instantly tell that the All Important Hawke--some former smuggler or mercenary refugee living in Lowtown--is now watching over him.) Even by DA everyone can't stop gushing over how awesome and special and amazing Hawke is every time s/he is brought up in conversation, or in person.

Yes. Its natural. We know him from a pulp fiction writer's story. Varric unable to tell a story without exaggeration ...

[Lezio]

I agree with the others. Besides, it's not as if the game didn't tell you when it / some people thought you messed up. Going for the mages in the first place gets called a mistake more than once, recruiting them even more so. Iron Bull is another example where 'messing up' (by whatever standard) gets you called out. You can lose war table missions. There's enough chance for failure imo, and the ultimate failure ("game over") cannot be discarded either.

Besides, I don't get this intense hatred some seem to feel towards a so-called 'Mary Sue'. As a PC in a story-driven RPG, you need to be special, and the nature of the medium inherently brings some 'Mary Sueness' with it. It's different with a, say, Bethesda-style RPG (though even they have elements of this for obvious reasons), because it's so sandbox, so open-world, that story doesn't matter (much). But as soon as there's a story to be told with the protagonist somewhat at the center, for agency reasons, the protagonist stops being a nobody and starts being... 'he'/'she'/'I'.

I'd even argue that Hawke, decried as the prototypical Mary Sue above, is anything but. Hawke fails. Again and again. She never makes a difference. She's the typical hero in a greek tragedy, doomed to watch people fall and plans crumble, powerless to do anything of impact.

 

That's kind of the problem too. At that point in time The Inquisitor(or Herald at that time) is a guy with a mark on his hand, why should he be the one to call all the shots when everyone is basically more qualified than him?

Obviously the protagonist needs to be special, the problem with The Inquisitor, IMHO, is that the game never actually lets him/her fail in a major way (and since in the War Table an elf Inquisitor can get his/her clan killed and no one mentions it..... well, i don't think the war table's "failures" count )

[Dai Grepher]

Depends how you play it, so no. Not Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

The Inquisitor is just the leader. He would have been nothing without the Inquisition, which was comprised of many people all doing what they were best at.

My male Trevelyan Rift Mage was mostly victorious in all circumstances, and was wise, righteous, and humble. But I still wouldn't consider him Gary Stu. He still had his fair share of hardships, regrets, and flaws. To me, a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a character that is too perfect, never gets it wrong, is basically untouchable, and because of this is one I can't identify with.

[Iakus]

I think the point still stands, though, especially if compared to the Exalted Council. In the latter you can be an-a-hole to everyone and still get to decide the future of The Inquisition, even though everyone during Trespasser tells you can't just do as you please(which is what ends up happening), in the Landsmeetyou can be a-hole..... and lose. Of course then the duel happens, because the plot demands it, but you/The Warden still lost, much like Loghain does if The Warden wins

Except you still can't do whatever you want with the Inquisition.  The game won't let you (which some have grumbled about)

 

You get two options:  disband, or join the Chantry.  A "real" Mary Sue Inquisitor could have carved out their own Empire and no one could have stopped them.

[Exile Isan]

I just want to point out that the Hawke family stayed in Lothering as long as they did because they were waiting for word from Carver (and possibly Hawke) who was/were at Ostagar.

[Abyss108]

No. Or at least not anymore than any other Bioware protagonist.

 

For example, you compared the Inquisitor the the Warden, but I could make very similar arguments for why the Warden was a Mary Sue if I wanted to -

 

- The Warden overcomes everything in their Origin, despite being a nobody fighting against overwhelming odds that they shouldn't stand a chance against.

- The Warden "fails" at Ostagar, but is immediately made party leader and in charge of gathering forces for the Blight, despite the fact that Alistair has more warden experience and every other companion has more experience in general.

- The Warden can "fail" at the landsmeet, but is then immediately granted victory there anyway, just by combat, which makes absolutely no sense (why have the talking part in the first place, if it's just going to come down to stabbing each other anyway?!?)

- The Warden can get either the perfect happy ending without losing anything, or become a perfect hero and be remembered forever by making the ultimate sacrifice where everyone will always know how selfless and noble they were.

 

I can also argue the Inquisitor isn't a Mary Sue in a similar way -

 

- The Inquisitor can actually lose the Game and not get the ending they want there. You need to play the game well to get all the various better options.

- The Inquisitor doesn't get their way at the Council. They are forced to bow to either the Orlesian's wish, or Ferelden's.

- The Inquisitor suffers the very real loss of their hand and arm.

- The Inquisitor is completely helpless for the actually finale, where are they are forced to watch Solas kill the baddy and are then completely at his mercy. 

[Lezio]

Except you still can't do whatever you want with the Inquisition.  The game won't let you (which some have grumbled about)

 

You get two options:  disband, or join the Chantry.  A "real" Mary Sue Inquisitor could have carved out their own Empire and no one could have stopped them.

 

That seems like a technicality at best, if i have to be honest. I mean, joining the Chantry, that possibly doesn't even have the Templars' support because they're part of The Inquisition, is basically in no way different from acting independently.

[thats1evildude]

Mary Sue gets tossed around too much these days. It's become Internet shorthand for "competent character I don't personally like." A lady character appears in a Star Wars trailer and suddenly idiots scream "MARY SUUUUE" because she's a girl and we can't have dem feminnsitz roonin' mah Stahr Warz.

THAT SAID, the Inquisitor is a bit of a Mary Sue, as was the Warden. But is that a bad thing? If you view "Mary Sue" as inherently negative, then yes. But a great many likeable, interesting and famous protagonists have been rather blatant Mary Sues.

We had a hero who wasn't the centre of the universe in DA2. Hawke wasn't a failure — he went from a penniless refugee to the city's first Champion — but he still had to deal with some pretty rough setbacks. And aside from its other issues, DA2 was kind of a downer.

The Inquisitor wins a lot, but I would argue that is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as it is tempered by the odd loss. And the Inquisitor does lose: he couldn't save the Divine, he couldn't save Stroud/Alistair/Loghain/Hawke from Nightmare and he ultimately lost an arm due to the dangerous elven magic he wielded.

So yeah, the Inquisitor is a Mary Sue. So what?

[Dai Grepher]

Except you still can't do whatever you want with the Inquisition.  The game won't let you (which some have grumbled about)
 
You get two options:  disband, or join the Chantry.  A "real" Mary Sue Inquisitor could have carved out their own Empire and no one could have stopped them.

But the choice is still yours, and you can also set the tone of it. I agree it isn't a real choice, but the Inquisitor still gets the last word.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, they aren't.

[Iadro]

I'd even argue that Hawke, decried as the prototypical Mary Sue above, is anything but. Hawke fails. Again and again. She never makes a difference. She's the typical hero in a greek tragedy, doomed to watch people fall and plans crumble, powerless to do anything of impact.

 

Haha. Yes, all the remains to finish the tale of woe is for Flemeth to punish Hawke by transforming her into a spider, for the crime of being raped by Sebastian's endless preaching.

 

At her Sundermount. FLEMETH'S SUNDERMOUNT!

[Abyss108]

But the choice is still yours, and you can also set the tone of it. I agree it isn't a real choice, but the Inquisitor still gets the last word.

 

Yeah, the last word on which of 2 people who hate you that they get to submit to. 

[Lezio]

No. Or at least not anymore than any other Bioware protagonist.

 

For example, you compared the Inquisitor the the Warden, but I could make very similar arguments for why the Warden was a Mary Sue if I wanted to -

 

1 The Warden overcomes everything in their Origin, despite being a nobody fighting against overwhelming odds that they shouldn't stand a chance against.

2 The Warden "fails" at Ostagar, but is immediately made party leader and in charge of gathering forces for the Blight, despite the fact that Alistair has more warden experience and every other companion has more experience in general.

3 The Warden can "fail" at the landsmeet, but is then immediately granted victory there anyway, just by combat, which makes absolutely no sense (why have the talking part in the first place, if it's just going to come down to stabbing each other anyway?!?)

4 The Warden can get either the perfect happy ending without losing anything, or become a perfect hero and be remembered forever by making the ultimate sacrifice where everyone will always know how selfless and noble they were.

 

I can also argue the Inquisitor isn't a Mary Sue in a similar way -

 

5 The Inquisitor can actually lose the Game and not get the ending they want there. You need to play the game well to get all the various better options.

6 The Inquisitor doesn't get their way at the Council. They are forced to bow to either the Orlesian's wish, or Ferelden's.

- The Inquisitor suffers the very real loss of their hand and arm.

- The Inquisitor is completely helpless for the actually finale, where are they are forced to watch Solas kill the baddy and are then completely at his mercy. 

 

1 The only Origin where The Not-yet-Warden fights against overwhelming odds is the City Elf one, really

2 The other candidates for party leader are, love you both Morrigan and Alistair, a manchild and a socially inept witch of the wilds. And the dog.

3 As i said before, Loghain goes the route same route if he loses. Obviously the game can't end at the Landsmeet, but you/The Warden still lost and you/The Warden are/is still the one who had to use violence to get the support of the Lords. Basically, the point is that whoever loses is the pathetic one

4 Don't understand this point

 

5 Eh, i think i explained it in my OP post

6 See above. And you don't actually submit to Orlais, you submit to the Chantry that has, basically, no power what so ever. And Ferelden can do nothing about it.

 

For the last 2 points i actually agree, as i already said in another topic it's a shame the game ended there, The Inquisitor had just become interesting for me

[Lezio]

The Inquisitor wins a lot, but I would argue that is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as it is tempered by the odd loss. And the Inquisitor does lose: he couldn't save the Divine, he couldn't save Stroud/Alistair/Loghain/Hawke from Nightmare and he ultimately lost an arm due to the dangerous elven magic he wielded.

 

I don't think losing can be applied to not being able to save people s/he met, like, 3 times and others s/he never even met

But yeah, as i said The Inquisitor became interesting for me just at the end of Trespasser when Solas did his thing

[Abyss108]

1 The only Origin where The Not-yet-Warden fights against overwhelming odds is the City Elf one, really

2 The other candidates for party leader are, love you both Morrigan and Alistair, a manchild and a socially inept witch of the wilds. And the dog.

3 As i said before, Loghain goes the route same route if he loses. Obviously the game can't end at the Landsmeet, but you/The Warden still lost and you/The Warden are/is still the one who had to use violence to get the support of the Lords. Basically, the point is that whoever loses is the pathetic one

4 Don't understand this point

 

5 Eh, i think i explained it in my OP post

6 See above

 

For the last 2 points i actually agree, as i already said in another topic it's a shame the game ended there, The Inquisitor had just become interesting for me

 

1 - All the Origins are about saying about how super special your character is, or they wouldn't be accepted into the Wardens. 

2 - You character can be any of those things, or much worse, or a crazy psychopath. Doesn't matter, you are still apparently much better than the guy who has actual experience. No one every questions why they should be taking orders from some random 20 year old kid who just happened to miss the main battle at Ostagar. 

3 - Yes, the game has to go on. So does Inquisition, but the game still locks you out of certain solutions if you play the game badly. In Origins, the game just kinda panics when it realises you can't lose and goes "QUICK, STAB SOMEONE TO MAKE IT BETTER"!?!

4 - Point is, you don't lose anything, you get to choose whatever type of saviour you want to be, and everyone thinks you are wonderful for it. As opposed to Inquisition, where you are forced to bow to your enemies, lose control of your organisation (and you do, this was specifically written to take control away from the Inquisitor no matter what you choose, as they couldn't allow your character to exist with that much power), and are maimed for life.