254 réponses à ce sujet

[SkinVision]

I have one answer for this question: YES. Which is why the relationships with their companions/advisors feel kind of fake.


Why would a guy like Cullen ask the Inquisitor how to handye his lyrium addiction. Why would Solas call them wise. Why would Leliana give a **** about whether they tell her to kill her agent or not. The character incredibly generic and doesn't really do anything to "deserve" respect. Everything somehow just falls into place for them.



However I must admit the game give a pretty accurate experience on how it is to be a generic, average person with a bit of luck who every body likes.

[Terodil]

I have one answer for this question: YES. Which is why the relationships with their companions/advisors feel kind of fake.

Why would a guy like Cullen ask the Inquisitor how to handye his lyrium addiction. Why would Solas call them wise. Why would Leliana give a **** about whether they tell her to kill her agent or not. The character is so ****** generic and doesn't really do anything to "deserve" respect. Everything somehow just falls into place for them.


No. That's putting the cart in front of the horse.

Take Leliana: You EARN the respect by interjecting when you could/should not have. Evidently she doesn't have to listen but she just happens to. She doesn't follow your order (because you indeed can't order her to do anything), but your intercession causes her to reconsider her own course of action, which also is the reason why this scene is so integral to her de-hardening process. There's a huge difference.

Solas calls her wise not at the start, but after observing her for a long time. The inquisitor EARNS his respect, it doesn't suddenly 'fall into place'. If you p!ss Solas off enough, he'll tell you in no uncertain terms that you are the very opposite of (what he considers) wise, in fact, little more than the animals he already expected the current inhabitants of Thedas to be.

But eh... that's a side battlefield tbh, sorry for sidetracking. I still don't think the issue is whether or not the protagonist is a Mary Sue, but that the protagonist simply has no personality/soul outside of a very few scenes. Which ties back to what you said, though for another reason: It makes it easy for people to 'somewhat' like her.

[Lezio]

1 - All the Origins are about saying about how super special your character is, or they wouldn't be accepted into the Wardens. 

2 - You character can be any of those things, or much worse, or a crazy psychopath. Doesn't matter, you are still apparently much better than the guy who has actual experience. No one every questions why they should be taking orders from some random 20 year old kid who just happened to miss the main battle at Ostagar. 

3 - Yes, the game has to go on. So does Inquisition, but the game still locks you out of certain solutions if you play the game badly. In Origins, the game just kinda panics when it realises you can't lose and goes "QUICK, STAB SOMEONE TO MAKE IT BETTER"!?!

4 - Point is, you don't lose anything, you get to choose whatever type of saviour you want to be, and everyone thinks you are wonderful for it. As opposed to Inquisition, where you are forced to bow to your enemies, lose control of your organisation (and you do, this was specifically written to take control away from the Inquisitor no matter what you choose, as they couldn't allow your character to exist with that much power), and are maimed for life. 

 

1- Personally, i never felt like The Warden was "super special". The Warden was a talented individual and, obviously, to be picked by the Grey Wardens you need to be just that. As i said, no overwhelming forces of doom apart from the City Elf one, just talent

 

2- I could agree with that, if it wasn't kind of a stretch   I find believing that Morrigan and Alistair would give command to the 3rd person much easier than believing that The Herald gets to call all the shots even when surrounded by people much more competent than him. If i had to make an example, Loghain joins The Warden from day 1 and just gives to him (the warden) all the power

 

3- It doesn't lock you out of anything, really. Best example: be an ass to the Wardens? Still possible to recruit them and they won't object nor rebel. Again, obviously you can't just lose at The Landsmeet, but at the very least there's the option to "lose" and to feel quite bad about since, y'know, you lost. Also, as i already said Loghain does the exact same things if he's the one lose(which, again, emphasizes just how pathetic and desperate someone has to be to play that card), meaning it's a thing that in Ferelden can happen

 

4- I still don't get your point, if i have to be honest How does everyone tell you how wonderful you are? In the ending at Denerim's palace, you mean? I'm not being sarcastic, i genuinely don't start what you mean with this

[ArcaneEsper]

IMO the problem with the Inquisitor is that the only fleshing out the character gets is in headcanon. Like DAI is pretty much my first RPG and my first playthrough was so disappointing because I had no idea that the best way to play it, is to aggressively fill in the blanks myself.

[Lezio]

No. That's putting the cart in front of the horse.

Take Leliana: You EARN the respect by interjecting when you could/should not have. Evidently she doesn't have to listen but she just happens to. She doesn't follow your order (because you indeed can't order her to do anything), but your intercession causes her to reconsider her own course of action, which also is the reason why this scene is so integral to her de-hardening process. There's a huge difference.

Solas calls her wise not at the start, but after observing her for a long time. The inquisitor EARNS his respect, it doesn't suddenly 'fall into place'. If you p!ss Solas off enough, he'll tell you in no uncertain terms that you are the very opposite of (what he considers) wise, in fact, little more than the animals he already expected the current inhabitants of Thedas to be.

But eh... that's a side battlefield tbh, sorry for sidetracking. I still don't think the issue is whether or not the protagonist is a Mary Sue, but that the protagonist simply has no personality/soul outside of a very few scenes. Which ties back to what you said, though for another reason: It makes it easy for people to 'somewhat' like her.

 

Quoting what i wrote in another topic:

"Another choice like that (player vs character) is Leliana's "kill the traitor or don't"(at the very beginning of the game). I, the player, stopped her because i didn't like seeing Leliana like that, but why would my character, someone who just met her and who just got back from the Hinterlands after killing something like 50 people, object about her giving a quick death to someone who sent Inquisition's people to die. That's just Merrill Act 1 level of naivety"

 

Which fits with the last part of your post, though

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Quoting what i wrote in another topic:

"Another choice like that (player vs character) is Leliana's "kill the traitor or don't"(at the very beginning of the game). I, the player, stopped her because i didn't like seeing Leliana like that, but why would my character, someone who just met her and who just got back from the Hinterlands after killing something like 50 people, object about her giving a quick death to someone who sent Inquisition's people to die. That's just Merrill Act 1 level of naivety"

 

Which fits with the last part of your post, though

Because some people don't like other people being killed or dying. There is nothing naive about that mindset. 

Plus there is a huge difference between defending yourself and others from attackers and murder. 

[Lezio]

Because some people don't like other people being killed or dying. There is nothing naive about that mindset. 

Plus there is a huge difference between defending yourself and others from attackers and murder. 

 

Again, after one has killed something like 50 people, to feel righteous about the quick death of a murdererer  and a traitor takes quite the special mindset

It would have been quite easy to give any character a motive to step in, just have either Leliana or the other guy mention offhandedly that the traitor has a wife and/or child and that someone will tell them the traitor has gone missing/some other BS story to cover up the fact that they killed him for treachery. The murderer gets humanized and any character has an actual reason to intervene

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again, after one has killed something like 50 people, to feel righteous about the quick death of a murdererer  and a traitor takes quite the special mindset

It would have been quite easy to give any character a motive to step in, just have either Leliana or the other guy mention that the traitor has a wife/child and that someone will tell them the traitor has gone missing/some other BS story. The murderer gets humanized and any character has an actual reason to intervene

Again, huge difference between defending yourself and others and murder. 

It would have, but just because they didn't doesn't make those who intervene naive, special, or whatever else you think. 

[Lezio]

Again, huge difference between defending yourself and others and murder. 

It would have, but just because they didn't doesn't make those who intervene naive, special, or whatever else you think. 

 

50 people

I'm talking about the character eh, not about the player/person

[Aulis Vaara]

Only in the way that RPG PCs are generally Mary Sue's.

Which is fine by me.

Well, that's not true. The OP is right, the Inquisitor gets everything handed to them on a silver platter, you can't **** up. Meanwhile, in Dragon Age: Origins, I felt heartbroken on my first playthrough when I had no choice but to kill Connor, because I had failed to save the mages. Sure, I still ended up being the hero, but not without scars.

[Lady Artifice]

Mary Sue is practically a useless phrase at this point.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

50 people

I'm talking about the character eh, not about the player/person

So are you actually going to talk, or just keep trolling with ? 

So am I. People can roleplay their character to feel that way. 

[Lezio]

Well, that's not true. The OP is right, the Inquisitor gets everything handed to them on a silver platter, you can't **** up. Meanwhile, in Dragon Age: Origins, I felt heartbroken on my first playthrough when I had no choice but to kill Connor, because I had failed to save the mages. Sure, I still ended up being the hero, but not without scars.

 

That's exactly what i meant

[thats1evildude]

Bioware was well aware of the Warden's Mary Sueness. (Watch the first minute or so.)

 

[Lezio]

So are you actually going to talk, or just keep trolling with ? 

So am I. People can roleplay their character to feel that way. 

 

I'm not trolling, and i'm sorry if i came out that why. With "50 people " i meant to remark that after one kills that many people, the death of a traitor wouldn't actually mean much. Obviously murder and self defense are not the same things, buf if you take into account the type of things The Herald does (like, again, killing 50 people) and the type of place Thedas is..... eh, to me it wouldn't make much sense to save the life of a guy who, basically, killed his comrades

They should have handled it better and, as i said, a small detail would have made all the difference

[Abyss108]

1- Personally, i never felt like The Warden was "super special". The Warden was a talented individual and, obviously, to be picked by the Grey Wardens you need to be just that. As i said, no overwhelming forces of doom apart from the City Elf one, just talent

 

2- I could agree with that, if it wasn't kind of a stretch   I find believing that Morrigan and Alistair would give command to the 3rd person much easier than believing that The Herald gets to call all the shots even when surrounded by people much more competent than him. If i had to make an example, Loghain joins The Warden from day 1 and just gives to him (the warden) all the power

 

3- It doesn't lock you out of anything, really. Best example: be an ass to the Wardens? Still possible to recruit them and they won't object nor rebel. Again, obviously you can't just lose at The Landsmeet, but at the very least there's the option to "lose" and to feel quite bad about since, y'know, you lost. Also, as i already said Loghain does the exact same things if he's the one lose(which, again, emphasizes just how pathetic and desperate someone has to be to play that card), meaning it's a thing that in Ferelden can happen

 

4- I still don't get your point, if i have to be honest How does everyone tell you how wonderful you are? In the ending at Denerim's palace, you mean? I'm not being sarcastic, i genuinely don't start what you mean with this

 

 

And I never felt the Inquisitor was special. They only become the leader after proving themselves for half the game. They are not in charge at Haven, that's just gameplay-story segregation. Whilst the Warden immediately becomes leader in the first few hours of the plot after doing nothing to show they have leadership skills and being the least experienced of anyone there.

 

There are several ending to the Game, and you only get certain ones if you do well. Otherwise you lose, get to feel bad just like in Origins, and actually lose access to endings you may have wanted. Whilst in Origins, you still get access to everything. "I felt bad before the game gave me everything anyway" is not a consequence. You can argue how large the consequences of losing the Game are, but at least they actually exist, unlike Origins.

 

What don't you understand about the ending? One game allows you to pick which ending you want, and that ending plays out exactly how you were told, with no unexpected consequences, no personal cost, you don't lose anything. You get what you wanted. The other ending takes everything away from you, makes you submit to your enemies, make you powerless, and maims you. One of those is more Mary-Sue than the other.

[Yumakooma]

I do not believe the Inquisitor is a 'Mary Sue', however they are the closest protagonist to this.

 

When I am roleplaying my characters I find it quite difficult to make my Inquisitor seem flawed, and I think its really thanks to how people are reacting to seeing the Inquisitor that it makes it feel more that way. The Warden is slightly more prone to failing but will always succeed much like the Inquisitor - but I find the fact that in Origins you are judged negatively by certain groups before even doing anything just makes you feel like things are more against the character... of course this is because the Wardens are painted as 'Traitors' and you really have to work to change this. The adoration for the Inquisitor from most (not all, but certainly the majority) places they travel certainly makes them seem like they get things easier. The ones who think the Inquisitor is a heretic... well... you don't really have to do much through the game to change that opinion, save for war table operations most the time

 

Hawke is seemingly made as destined to fail no matter what, so they are the direct opposite of Mary Sue whatever that is

[Witch Cocktor]

I guess I've never felt this way because I'm just sad that the Inquisitor has to go through all the bullshit. I never actually feel like my Inquisitor is a big unstoppable hero who does everything right and makes everything right as well. I just feel like I'm riding on the wings of my companions and despite bringing some form of peace, everything goes to **** in few years anyway, and in future Inquisitors decisions and heroism will be painted as awful and evil anyway,

[SkinVision]

No. That's putting the cart in front of the horse.

Take Leliana: You EARN the respect by interjecting when you could/should not have. Evidently she doesn't have to listen but she just happens to. She doesn't follow your order (because you indeed can't order her to do anything), but your intercession causes her to reconsider her own course of action, which also is the reason why this scene is so integral to her de-hardening process. There's a huge difference.

Solas calls her wise not at the start, but after observing her for a long time. The inquisitor EARNS his respect, it doesn't suddenly 'fall into place'. If you p!ss Solas off enough, he'll tell you in no uncertain terms that you are the very opposite of (what he considers) wise, in fact, little more than the animals he already expected the current inhabitants of Thedas to be.

But eh... that's a side battlefield tbh, sorry for sidetracking. I still don't think the issue is whether or not the protagonist is a Mary Sue, but that the protagonist simply has no personality/soul outside of a very few scenes. Which ties back to what you said, though for another reason: It makes it easy for people to 'somewhat' like her.

 

You're kind of right about the personality-thing. Though I also think it has to do with the inquisitor not really having a history of succsesses AND failures. Cullen went through a lot of ****, Leliana too... and Solas... well, you know 


 

The inquisitor is basically Harry Potter. He has a mark that makes him special and stumbles from one victory to another. Everyone constantly tells him how special he is while his friends actually are a lot more talented than him. (I love the harry potter books so no debate on this matter please )


 

But as you said this might also have to do with how the character is portrayed. He never reveals anything about his personal history, whether he  experienced guilt or regret, irrational emotions, fear. He's just listening and asking others questions, sometimes expressing a mildly unpopular opinion if the player choses to while the world explodes around him. He’s a blank peace of paper which might be great for head canon, I don’t know… However it made me feel like none of his victories were really deserved.

 

You'd think the whole "I don't know what happened at the temple of sacred ashes"-thing would be slightly traumatic, losing your memory and all but nope. He just felt really bland to me.


 

I don't have a lot of experience with the term Mary Sue since I'm not a native speaker and I'm only a casual gamer so maybe I took it the wrong way.

[fhs33721]

Mary Sue? Not really.

Unrealistically badass and capable in a lot of things? Yes. S/he is a video game protagonist after all and as such is doomed to triumph in situations, where everyone else would die and should do so for lore-reasons.

[Iakus]

Now THIS is a Sue character 

 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I'd say the Inquisitor is more a Special Snowflake than a Mary Sue.  A Sue character has no real flaws

Do you think is possible in concept? For a person to be flawless or akin to be flawless?

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Bioware was well aware of the Warden's Mary Sueness. (Watch the first minute or so.)

 

This was just a lame attempt of seduction by Oghren since he said pretty much the same things to Felsi...

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

I'd say Cousland is a bigger Mary Sue since the entire family is treated as insufferably perfect, from historical conception to present-day, and everyone falls to their knees and worships the ground you walk on from the very beginning just for existing; just for being a Cousland. (Because apparently the Couslands have this genetic, inherent superiority that everyone can Just Tell.)

 

 

i think if you want you can find flaws within Bryce and Fergus

[Lezio]

And I never felt the Inquisitor was special. They only become the leader after proving themselves for half the game. They are not in charge at Haven, that's just gameplay-story segregation. Whilst the Warden immediately becomes leader in the first few hours of the plot after doing nothing to show they have leadership skills and being the least experienced of anyone there.

 

There are several ending to the Game, and you only get certain ones if you do well. Otherwise you lose, get to feel bad just like in Origins, and actually lose access to endings you may have wanted. Whilst in Origins, you still get access to everything. "I felt bad before the game gave me everything anyway" is not a consequence. You can argue how large the consequences of losing the Game are, but at least they actually exist, unlike Origins.

 

What don't you understand about the ending? One game allows you to pick which ending you want, and that ending plays out exactly how you were told, with no unexpected consequences, no personal cost, you don't lose anything. You get what you wanted. The other ending takes everything away from you, makes you submit to your enemies, make you powerless, and maims you. One of those is more Mary-Sue than the other.

 

So, The Herald leading around people with more experience than him, while also controlling all of the operations of The Inquisition, is story/gameplay segregation, but The Warden leading around 2 people and a dog is unbelievable and wrong? I......

 

The rest is just very confusing, if i have to be honest. You can't lose the game, you just get different options based on what you did during the ball. I specifically compared that whole arc to Orzammar because there it felt like The Warden had to submit to the dwarves' will, in Halamshiral The Inquisitor just finds all kinds of secrets about the people who are supposed to be, y'know, masters at keeping them. Then you say that there are consequences for losing the game, which again you can't do, which makes the whole thing even more confusing

 

So, having Morrigan running away with The Warden's child if the ritual's accepted, or having a child with the soul of an Old God running around, or dying, or having Alistair or Loghain dying is, again, wrong and unbelievable because in Inquisition's ending, for the first time, the Inquisitor actually fails? (and becomes much more interesting because of it, as i already said?)

 

And i feel like pointing out, once again, that you sumbit to no one. You either go under the Chantry, which basically means retaining independence, or disbanding. You can choose the one you like the most and no one has a say on it, so, again, neither Ferelden or Orlais are forcing The Inquisitor to do anything (which, from what we had been told throughout the DLC, they would have done if The Inquisitor behaved badly and was thus judged incapable of leading The Inquisiton)

 

I..... feel like we should agree to disagree, i'm all open for discussion but this won't go anywhere, i believe