254 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

I agree with Lezio. In fact the Inquisitor was so worshipped and everything was handed to them so easily, it was sickening.

 

The Inquisitor lose their old life because of this worship as they cannot return to their old life without the very high likelihood that they'd be kidnapped or killed which is what Cassandra and Leliana imply to them if they ask whether or not they can leave. That is why they have to stay with the Inquisition: because the moment, they leave their protection they are likely done for it.

 

 I also disagree with the notion that everything was handed to the Inquisitor so easily: I consider it to be less so done than it was for the Warden.
 

[straykat]

The Inquisitor lose their old life because of this worship as they cannot return to their old life without the very high likelihood that they'd be kidnapped or killed which is what Cassandra and Leliana imply to them if they ask whether or not they can leave. That is why they have to stay with the Inquisition: because the moment, they leave their protection they are likely done for it.

 

 I also disagree with the notion that everything was handed to the Inquisitor so easily: I consider it to be less so done than it was for the Warden.
 

 

The difference with the Warden is there wasn't much choice. They were a surviving soldier from Ostagar.. and no one was left. The only thing in their way was Alistair.. and he didn't want to be in the way. They also had Flemeth...who nudged and changed practically everything. In addition to Ostagar, they all had a decent origin story.

 

The problem with the Inquisitor is he makes perfectly fine characters look stupid. He makes entire nations and religions look stupid to boot. EVERYONE has to be diminished just to make room for this character. It's hard to believe everyone is this pathetic. As in, it's not believable. What makes this guy so authoritative compared to Leli and Cass who've been through thick and thin in the highest echelons. and both about as open and understanding of both sides of the war as can be.. in addition familiar with noble avenues as well? They live and breath all of these issues. And if the Inquisitor is so great, then they at least deserve a story that matches Leli and Cass. Not just be some bum out of an Elder Scrolls game. That just makes it extra cheesy, when the side characters are more interesting, knowledgeable, and battle-tested than the main one. Not to mention, more personable and fleshed out.

[Terodil]

The problem with the Inquisitor is he makes perfectly fine characters look stupid. He makes entire nations and religions look stupid to boot. EVERYONE has to be diminished just to make room for this character. It's hard to believe everyone is this pathetic.

1. Orlais is a perfectly believable version of a decadent and corrupt society bordering on the dysfunctional.
2. I honestly do not see how an Inky can make Orlais look any more petty and stupid than it already is. (I mean, pearls AND emeralds on slippers? Come on.)

What was your point again? ( )

[Shechinah]

1. Orlais is a perfectly believable version of a decadent and corrupt society bordering on the dysfunctional.
2. I honestly do not see how an Inky can make Orlais look any more petty and stupid than it already is. (I mean, pearls AND emeralds on slippers? Come on.)

What was your point again? ( )

 
I can understand and agree with some of straykat's points though not necessarily the degree of them: While the idea of pre-Inquisitor being a part of the inner circle and working as a part of the team that makes the decisions before Skyhold was good, it was not quite as well-implemented as it could be which lends itself to the impression that the pre-Inquisitior is the leader.   
 
Basically it is this segment of straykat's post that I can understand and agree with; "What makes this guy so authoritative compared to Leli and Cass who've been through thick and thin in the highest echelons. and both about as open and understanding of both sides of the war as can be.. in addition familiar with noble avenues as well?"

 

The rest I do not.

[Shechinah]

The problem with the Inquisitor is he makes perfectly fine characters look stupid. He makes entire nations and religions look stupid to boot. EVERYONE has to be diminished just to make room for this character. It's hard to believe everyone is this pathetic.

 

Would you provide examples, please?
 

[Lezio]

Can you explain why you disagree? The only thing I can think of is you don't know what gameplay-story segregation means... Inquisition is the perfect textbook example of it. Which is actually something it did rather badly, as I didn't realise that was what it was doing until the game had actually had a character tell me.

 

Gameplay and story segregation means there is an inconstancy between the two. For example someone like Cassandra, all around badass and dragon slayer, being lead aroung by a wildcard with a mark on his/her hand, for example being given the keys of The Inquisition from the day 1 (and, seriously, don't tell me that "because they didn't tell us we were boss, then we weren't" looks like a duck, swims like a duck and all that crap), for example everyone of the inner circle turning to The Herald like they all are too incompetent to make a decision

 

Having said this, if you defend Inquisition's straight up bad handling of this and criticize Origins' simply because in one everyone looks the other way when you make a decision, no one dares to go against that decision(again, Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen, incompetent people who don't know anything about anything, obviously) and they only make it official later on that you're "boss"(btw, Cassandra straight up tells The Inquisitor he was always the one in charge), while in the other game two (young, inexperienced) people leave The Warden command (of, again, 2 people and a dog, not of a whole organization and of several more experienced people) because they aren't able to lead, and they aknowledge it, well....... sorry to say, but it makes no freaking sense having an issue with the latter while justifying the former

 

Making things up? Care to tell me, please, how Inquisition ends if i didn't want to spend some more money to get an actual ending to the game? Then again, i still don't see just why you're comparing Origins' and Inquisition's ending, but that's okay, don't wanna know

 

Yeah, under the leadership of the Chantry that, as i expressed time and time again in this little debate, is mostly powerless, lead by a friend of The Inquisitor and basically unable to to reign in The Inquisition. Total submition there, Ferelden and Orlais must be happy about that outcome...... but who cares, they don't get to make a sound during The Inquisitor's speech.

 

Let me repeat myself one more time, i have no problem with Trespasser, in fact i started to like The Inquisitor in the DLC, the only thing i don't like about it is its lackluster handling of the Exalted Council

 

I don't see the point in arguing with you because you seem to criticize one thing and then justify that same thing depending on your preference. Also, your arguments got fewer and fewer as the discussion went on, which i find interesting

 

So, please, let us agree to disagree before this whole thing gets even more confusing

[KaiserShep]

The problem with the Inquisitor is he makes perfectly fine characters look stupid. He makes entire nations and religions look stupid to boot. EVERYONE has to be diminished just to make room for this character. It's hard to believe everyone is this pathetic. As in, it's not believable. What makes this guy so authoritative compared to Leli and Cass who've been through thick and thin in the highest echelons. and both about as open and understanding of both sides of the war as can be.. in addition familiar with noble avenues as well? They live and breath all of these issues. And if the Inquisitor is so great, then they at least deserve a story that matches Leli and Cass. Not just be some bum out of an Elder Scrolls game. That just makes it extra cheesy, when the side characters are more interesting, knowledgeable, and battle-tested than the main one. Not to mention, more personable and fleshed out.

 

 

Which perfectly fine characters? 

 

As for religions, well, religion is the convenient fast track to explaining mysterious phenomena, so hard reality tends to be a poor bedfellow. 

 

But all in all, I can't help but find the irony in that Shepard is a million times worse than this. The utter ineptitude of everyone from the center of the galactic government, to the Alliance, Cerberus, the STG, and C-Sec et al is staggering. 

[Almostfaceman]

 

The problem with the Inquisitor is he makes perfectly fine characters look stupid. He makes entire nations and religions look stupid to boot. 

 

Origins made the powers of Ferelden look helpless without the Warden. They couldn't work out their political differences without the HoF, nor could they unite an army that would have any chance of success against the Blight. 

 

Pretty much the same with Inquisition.  

 

No Warden? The Blight destroys Ferelden.

 

No Inquisitor? Corypheus destroys Thedas. 

 

There's no substantial difference. 

[German Soldier]

Origins made the powers of Ferelden look helpless without the Warden. They couldn't work out their political differences without the HoF, nor could they unite an army that would have any chance of success against the Blight. 

 

Pretty much the same with Inquisition.  

 

No Warden? The Blight destroys Ferelden.

 

No Inquisitor? Corypheus destroys Thedas. 

 

There's no substantial difference. 

There are differences ,Thedas is bigger than Ferelden,lose Ferelden is a defeat,lose Thedas is game over.

[Almostfaceman]

There are differences ,Thedas is bigger than Ferelden,lose Ferelden is a defeat,lose Thedas is game over.

 

The player, in both games, is the savior. All the other powers involved are helpless. The strategic values of the loss of Ferelden (maybe all of Thedas) via the Blight vs the loss of Thedas by the power of Corypheus isn't the focus of my statement. 

[Rawgrim]

No he is a bully. He attacks Cory constantly, and Cory doesn't fight back.

[Abyss108]

Gameplay and story segregation means there is an inconstancy between the two. For example someone like Cassandra, all around badass and dragon salyer, being lead aroung by a wildcard with a mark on his/her hand, for example being given the keys of The Inquisition from the day 1 (and, seriously, don't tell me that "because they didn't tell us we were boss, then we weren't" looks like a duck, swims like a duck and all that crap), for example everyone of the inner circle turning to The Herald like they all are too incompetent to make a decision

 

Having said this, if you defend Inquisition's straight up bad handling of this and criticize Origins' simply because in one everyone looks the other way when you make a decision, no one dares to go against that decision(again, Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen, incompetent people who don't know anything about anything, obviously) and they only make it official later on that you're "boss"(btw, Cassandra straight up tells The Inquisitor he was always the one in charge), while in the other two (young, inexperienced) people leave The Warden command (of, again, 2 people and a dog, not of a whole organization and of several more experienced people) because they aren't able to lead, and they aknowledge it, well....... sorry to say, but it makes no freaking sense having an issue with the latter while justifying the former

 

Making things up? Care to tell me, please, how Inquisition ends if i didn't want to spend some more money to get an actual ending to the game? Then again, i still don't see just why you're comparing Origins' and Inquisition's ending, but that's okay, don't wanna know

 

Yeah, under the leadership of the Chantry that, as i expressed time and time again in this little debate, is mostly powerless, lead by a friend of The Inquisitor and basically unable to to reign in The Inquisition. Total submition there, Ferelden and Orlais must be happy about that outcome...... but who cares, they don't get to make a sound during The Inquisitor's speech.

 

Let me repeat myself one more time, i have no problem with Trespasser, in fact i started to like The Inquisitor in the DLC, the only thing i don't like about it is its lackluster handling of the Exalted Council

 

I don't see the point in arguing with you because you seem to criticize one thing and then justify that same thing depending on your preference. Also, your arguments got fewer and fewer as the discussion went on, which i find interesting

 

So, please, let us agree to disagree before this whole thing gets even more confusing

 

You... Don't understand why I am comparing how Mary-Sue each ending is in a topic created to discuss which game is Mary-Sue? And my arguments have not gotten fewer at all? I haven't felt the need to post every single argument in every single post because what would be the point in that? I've already said my point. I've pointed out very real consequences in Inquisition that didn't exist in Origins and you choose to ignore that and class "I felt bad" as a consequence when there is nothing in the game to support that.

 

But sure, let's just agree to disagree. There's really nothing else I can add if your reply to direct quotes on what happened from the developers is "nope, didn't happen". If you don't believe what the people who wrote the plot say happened, you certainly won't believe anything I or any other poster says on the matter.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Gameplay and story segregation means there is an inconstancy between the two. For example someone like Cassandra, all around badass and dragon salyer, being lead aroung by a wildcard with a mark on his/her hand, for example being given the keys of The Inquisition from the day 1 (and, seriously, don't tell me that "because they didn't tell us we were boss, then we weren't" looks like a duck, swims like a duck and all that crap), for example everyone of the inner circle turning to The Herald like they all are too incompetent to make a decision

 

Please stop with logic.

[German Soldier]

The player, in both games, is the savior. All the other powers involved are helpless. The strategic values of the loss of Ferelden (maybe all of Thedas) via the Blight vs the loss of Thedas by the power of Corypheus isn't the focus of my statement. 

The warden is less of a savior than the inquisitor because it can be replaced by any other warden.

The inquisitor is not only savior but also the only one possible solution for the breach(not for Corypheus because Corypheus actually was neutralized in the past)

[Almostfaceman]

 

The warden is less of a savior than the inquisitor because it can be replaced by any other warden.

The inquisitor is not only savior but also the only one possible solution for the breach(not for Corypheus because Corypheus actually was neutralized in the past)

 

 

I don't understand what you mean by "it can be replaced by any other warden". The only other warden who has the time to collect the armies before the Blight totally destroys Denerim is Alistair... the game makes it clear Alistair just is flailing about and ready to ramble after our warden instead of doing what needs to be done. All the other wardens are dead and Riordan is captured by Loghain. The game clearly puts the agency of "saving the world" into our wardens hands... not anyone else's. 

 

Same with the Inquisitor. 

 

Edit: Here's what's happens with Alistair when he doesn't have our warden to hold his hand.

 

[German Soldier]

Gameplay and story segregation means there is an inconstancy between the two. For example someone like Cassandra, all around badass and dragon slayer, being lead aroung by a wildcard with a mark on his/her hand, for example being given the keys of The Inquisition from the day 1 (and, seriously, don't tell me that "because they didn't tell us we were boss, then we weren't" looks like a duck, swims like a duck and all that crap), for example everyone of the inner circle turning to The Herald like they all are too incompetent to make a decision

 

 

That's actually pretty common in DA franchise,i think in DAO was even worse.

also what kind of armor you have in the picture avatar?

[German Soldier]

I don't understand what you mean by "it can be replaced by any other warden". The only other warden who has the time to collect the armies before the Blight totally destroys Denerim is Alistair... the game makes it clear Alistair just is flailing about and ready to ramble after our warden instead of doing what needs to be done. All the other wardens are dead and Riordan is captured by Loghain. The game clearly puts the agency of "saving the world" into our wardens hands... not anyone else's. 

 

Same with the Inquisitor. 

Any  warden can kill the old god which mean that it's not an irresolvable problem,it does not matter if Ferelden is defeated what it matters is that the archdemon can't win against Thedas.

The breach instead it require the anchor to be closed and only the Inquisitor in the entire continent can do it

 If the Inquisitor die the world die because Bioware made this protagonist a total savior and in the course of the narrative they even force this person (which is vital for the world)to risk their life for trivial quests.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Any other warden can kill the old god which mean that it's not an irresolvable problem,it does not matter if Ferelden is defeated what it matters is that the archdemon can't win against Thedas.

The breach instead it require the anchor to be closed and only the Inquisitor in the entire continent can do it which mean the Inquisitor die the world die.

 

 

Eh, nobody really wants to let Ferelden kick the bucket while the Wardens try to get their poop together and face a strengthening Blight somewhere else along the line after they maul Ferelden. There's also a very real possibility that the Blight could defeat the Wardens this time. It's always a possibility. 

 

So, the agency is pretty much the same. Our warden nips the danger to the world of Thedas in the bud, becoming the hero. Same with the Inquisitor. 

[straykat]

Which perfectly fine characters? 

 

As for religions, well, religion is the convenient fast track to explaining mysterious phenomena, so hard reality tends to be a poor bedfellow. 

 

But all in all, I can't help but find the irony in that Shepard is a million times worse than this. The utter ineptitude of everyone from the center of the galactic government, to the Alliance, Cerberus, the STG, and C-Sec et al is staggering. 

 

Yeah, thanks. I am religious. It isn't that simple.

 

But this particular religion is not on a fast track to explaining mysterious phenomena like that. They believe the Maker is gone. And Andraste had a specific mission - to spread the Chant. And maybe that would change. It is deistic in nature. Even the spirits know this. "A true believer would not require audacious displays of power."

 

This game had to rearrange the lore on the Chantry itself just to push this character. Suddenly people changed their fundamental tenets, on a fairly large scale. A setting should be worth more than this. There's a lot put on the altar here, just to push a plot/character.

 

The only person we've known to be genuinely like this was Leliana. She's a Theist. Not a Deist.

 

 

 
I can understand and agree with some of straykat's points though not necessarily the degree of them: While the idea of pre-Inquisitor being a part of the inner circle and working as a part of the team that makes the decisions before Skyhold was good, it was not quite as well-implemented as it could be which lends itself to the impression that the pre-Inquisitior is the leader.   
 
Basically it is this segment of straykat's post that I can understand and agree with; "What makes this guy so authoritative compared to Leli and Cass who've been through thick and thin in the highest echelons. and both about as open and understanding of both sides of the war as can be.. in addition familiar with noble avenues as well?"

 

The rest I do not.

 

At least we partly agree.

 

I'd still say the pre-Inquisition segment still amounts to jack though. Oh, you hunted 10 rams. Great. Built some watchtowers.. fought off Mages/Templars who have nothing to do with the actual conflict. There's little to demonstrate that you'd make a good Inquisitor. Or even a decent "investigator". There's little about the gameplay that entails that. Most of it is nonsense.

 

The Mage quest kind of changes things at least. They go into the future, and for some reason, the world falls apart without you. I'll accept that this convinces them at least.

 

 

1. Orlais is a perfectly believable version of a decadent and corrupt society bordering on the dysfunctional.
2. I honestly do not see how an Inky can make Orlais look any more petty and stupid than it already is. (I mean, pearls AND emeralds on slippers? Come on.)

What was your point again? ( )

 

Orlais was an empire for over a thousand years. Why do we have to get the Disney version now?

[German Soldier]

Eh, nobody really wants to let Ferelden kick the bucket while the Wardens try to get their poop together and face a strengthening Blight somewhere else along the line after they maul Ferelden. There's also a very real possibility that the Blight could defeat the Wardens this time. It's always a possibility. 

 

So, the agency is pretty much the same. Our warden nips the danger to the world of Thedas in the bud, becoming the hero. Same with the Inquisitor. 

Is not the same thing,Archdemons are vulnerable to Grey wardens and there are thousands of them so the critter can't destroy the world no matter how many years it will take to kill it and this old god is even more weak than those of the past.

The breach on the other hand it need to be closed by the Inquisitor otherwise the future of Redcliffe happen and the only person who can close it is the inquisitor,if the inquisitor die the world die..

[Iakus]

I agree with Lezio. In fact the Inquisitor was so worshipped and everything was handed to them so easily, it was sickening.

I suspect that was a result of cut content.  No doubt the rise to becoming the Herald of Andraste was meant to be longer.

 

AS for the worshiping bit, notice that only those who don't really know the Inquisitor do so.  Those who are in regular contact with the Inquisitor:  Cassandra, Iron Bull, Sera, Krem, Vivienne, all see a person.  One perhaps tapped by fate, the Maker, or whoever.  But still an ordinary, flawed mortal.

[Addictress]

Origins made the powers of Ferelden look helpless without the Warden. They couldn't work out their political differences without the HoF, nor could they unite an army that would have any chance of success against the Blight.

Pretty much the same with Inquisition.

No Warden? The Blight destroys Ferelden.

No Inquisitor? Corypheus destroys Thedas.

There's no substantial difference.

The nations in Origins weren't stupid or helpless. They had specific characters with strong schemes and motivations preventing unification and political stability.

Zathrian. The carta, Harrowmont, Uldred, Loghain VS. Eamon. These were political and romantic dramas manifested through solid characters who you could fight like bosses at the end of definitive quests.

[PapaCharlie9]

I tend to agree with those saying, sure, since Mary Sue can be slapped on any PC that you can't play as a total douche (compared to Fallout or Skyrim or even Dishonored) or you can't intentionally handicap in some way, the Inquisitor is a Mary Sue. What else is new at Bioware?
 

Except you still can't do whatever you want with the Inquisition.  The game won't let you (which some have grumbled about)
 
You get two options:  disband, or join the Chantry.  A "real" Mary Sue Inquisitor could have carved out their own Empire and no one could have stopped them.

This has been talked about before, but I'll say it again: this is why the final ending seems so forced and unsatisfying. All through the game the IQ is handed one win after another. Then the final choice is between the lesser of two evils? No option to blow the whole thing up (go full evil) or save the day? It's like the whole game was one long troll. But again, par for the course for Bioware.
 

For example someone like Cassandra, all around badass and dragon slayer, being lead aroung by a wildcard with a mark on his/her hand, for example being given the keys of The Inquisition from the day 1 (and, seriously, don't tell me that "because they didn't tell us we were boss, then we weren't" looks like a duck, swims like a duck and all that crap), for example everyone of the inner circle turning to The Herald like they all are too incompetent to make a decision

I took that more to be a critique of big, organized religion, the pitfalls of blind faith, or even the evils of faith of any sort. Let's set up the faithful to believe that you are the Herald and then knock them over the head with incontrovertible evidence that one is not. Solas is like the voice of Bioware about all that, ready at every opportunity to poke fun at the faithful. Pity there's no one creditable that represents the other side in DAI. Mother Giselle would have been, but all that hen clucking at Dorian kind of diminishes her in my eyes.

Origins was a bit more even-handed -- the Sacred Ashes were appropriately awe inspiring to the faithful and did have miraculous powers. There's no one like Solas to say that's all malarkey and you'd be a fool to believe it.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Is not the same thing,Archdemons are vulnerable to Grey wardens and there are thousands of them so the critter can't destroy the world no matter how many years it will take to kill it and this old god is even more weak than those of the past.

The breach on the other hand it need to be closed by the Inquisitor otherwise the future of Redcliffe happen and the only person who can close it is the inquisitor,if the inquisitor die the world die..

 

 

We can just agree to disagree. Like I said before, "thousands of wardens" has never been a guarantee in defeating Blights. Blights pollute the lands they swarm (permanently) and destroy vast swaths of humanity. If you read the codex's of the previous Blights, they were horrible events where victory was never taken for granted and never assured. The whole of Thedas breathes a sigh of relief when the wardens are victorious and count their blessings. 

 

To me, both our warden and the Inquisitor are necessary agents helping the hapless governments (and other powers) and they both save the world. 

 

Yay!

 

[Iakus]

 

I don't understand what you mean by "it can be replaced by any other warden". The only other warden who has the time to collect the armies before the Blight totally destroys Denerim is Alistair... the game makes it clear Alistair just is flailing about and ready to ramble after our warden instead of doing what needs to be done. All the other wardens are dead and Riordan is captured by Loghain. The game clearly puts the agency of "saving the world" into our wardens hands... not anyone else's. 

 

Same with the Inquisitor. 

 

Edit: Here's what's happens with Alistair when he doesn't have our warden to hold his hand.

 

 

Well, The Darkspawn Chronicles tells us that Alistair comes within a hair of slaying the archdemon without the Hero of Ferelden's aid.

 

So while the job could not have been done by any Warden, it looks like almost any Warden would have done