254 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

The nations in Origins weren't stupid or helpless. They had specific characters with strong schemes and motivations preventing unification and political stability.

 

 

They all needed our warden to work out their problems so that the Blight didn't devour Ferelden. How smart or strong they are wouldn't matter much to the hapless citizen being slaughtered as a civil war raged unresolved without our warden's agency. So the practical effect is that they weren't going to get the job done, without us.

 

Not getting the job done = helpless, hapless, whatever. Country done been Blighted. Woopsie. 

[Almostfaceman]

Well, The Darkspawn Chronicles tells us that Alistair comes within a hair of slaying the archdemon without the Hero of Ferelden's aid.

 

So while the job could not have been done by any Warden, it looks like almost any Warden would have done 

 

Well as I can assuredly tell ya... almost never cuts the mustard. 

[German Soldier]

 

We can just agree to disagree. Like I said before, "thousands of wardens" has never been a guarantee in defeating Blights. Blights pollute the lands they swarm (permanently) and destroy vast swaths of humanity. If you read the codex's of the previous Blights, they were horrible events where victory was never taken for granted and never assured. The whole of Thedas breathes a sigh of relief when the wardens are victorious and count their blessings. 

 

To me, both our warden and the Inquisitor necessary agents helping the hapless governments (and other powers) and they both save the world. 

 

Yay!

 

 

Of course we will always agree to disagree since the blights are mostly defeated by the armies of Thedas while the wardens had to mostly kill the archdemons.

The point which seem that you don't want to see is that only the inquisitor can close the breach thus make the inquisitor unique and necessary while every warden can go kamikaze vs an archdemon you can even use those two(Loghain/AListair)to remove it.

[German Soldier]

Well, The Darkspawn Chronicles tells us that Alistair comes within a hair of slaying the archdemon without the Hero of Ferelden's aid.

 

So while the job could not have been done by any Warden, it looks like almost any Warden would have done 

 you need also to take into considerations that the Pc are not permitted to fail by the narrative and your PC in that specific case was the general of the darkspawn,if it wasn't for the alpha the archdemon would have been dead in the Dlc since it is the Pc who save the archdemon.

[Almostfaceman]

The point which seem that you don't want to see is that only the inquisitor can close the breach thus make the inquisitor unique and necessary while every warden can go kamikaze vs an archdemon.

 

 

Oh I get your point, I just don't think it matters much in the comparison. People playing Origins feel like they're saving Thedas from a major catastrophe and likewise with the Inquisitor. 

 

Heck, it can even be said that if the Warden hadn't saved Ferelden (read Haven), there would be no Inquisitor and Solas would have rofl-stomped all of Thedas. 

 

But we don't have to get into that. They're both basically the same story, both times you feel like you've saved the world. It's all awesome. 

[straykat]

 It's all awesome. 

 

I must be getting too old for my own good. I don't see the awesome as much anymore.

 

But like I said, DAO wouldn't even be possible without Flemeth. It isn't due to how badass the Warden was. "If that was the case, sending you two would be quite the jest."

[Addictress]

I suspect that was a result of cut content. No doubt the rise to becoming the Herald of Andraste was meant to be longer.

AS for the worshiping bit, notice that only those who don't really know the Inquisitor do so. Those who are in regular contact with the Inquisitor: Cassandra, Iron Bull, Sera, Krem, Vivienne, all see a person. One perhaps tapped by fate, the Maker, or whoever. But still an ordinary, flawed mortal.

They really don't. Look at how cheesy it was right after the Battle of Haven, when Cassandra goes, "the one who has been leading us all along" and Leliana holds out the sword Aragorn-Isildur style and then she climbs the stairway and the entire Skyhold apppauses while the golden light of a new sun shines in everyone's eyes and end-game-level victory music resounds. Pls
Then if you try to romance Cullen he's amazed like "oh maker, it's like banging Andraste herself" and Cassandra, in the Haven war room, goes "you were precisely who we needed, when we needed it" among other comments of superstitious reverence.
What did the Inquisitor even do before Skyhold? The Hinterlands? After 5 playthroughs I finally figured out that they were spreading the Inquisition's power through the Hinterlands, I guess, collecting blankets and ram meat, and killing....mages and templars, I guess? But Cassandra was the real force in Val Royeaux when they first met the Lord Seeker, and the advisors (particularly Josephine) set up that nobles/Templars meeting in Champions of the Just. The only accomplishment is that the inquisitor is able to escape the Envy demon in her mind. Although mostly due to Cole's help. In Hushed Whispers....honestly Dorian's the hero there. He knows about using the amulet to get back.

I get propping up a religious figure or celebrity to manipulate masses and forge political alliances. To utilize a marketing brand, of sorts, to create an image and garner a following. I actually LOVE that idea. The middle ages, a time when the majority of people were probably peasants, wanting to look up to prophets and heralds, and nobles manipulating that alongside a Catholic church. Um, didn't that kind of happen in reality? So yeah, I get it. The problem is, the game wasn't entirely self-aware on this. They merged a role of necessary agency with a position, as I just described, which only honestly works if it is a passive symbol. Like the Last Emperor. The Dowager and the advisers were the real rulers of ancient China. The little baby Emperor is just a symbol, that has multiple uses, and meanings, to the public at large. But he's just a baby. A better protagonist would have been an advisor. Who doesn't necessarily receive the worship on a national scale but gets to kick as* and, probably determine the fate of the nation. Individual groups and people may praise him, like when the new keeper thanks the warden (after a legit boss fight), the king of Orzammar, Bann Teagan thanks the warden. But then they move on.

Being both the symbol and the active agent of change could have worked, I suppose, if we directly controlled more operations on the field instead of just 3 companions.

[Shechinah]

I'd still say the pre-Inquisition segment still amounts to jack though. Oh, you hunted 10 rams. Great. Built some watchtowers.. fought off Mages/Templars who have nothing to do with the actual conflict. There's little to demonstrate that you'd make a good Inquisitor. Or even a decent "investigator". There's little about the gameplay that entails that. Most of it is nonsense.

 

I should preface what I am about to say with that I know it is insufficent for a number of people and that I can completely understand;

 

Now there are quite a number amongst the common folk that believe that the Inquisitor is divinely chosen by Andraste to save them in their hour of despair and these small acts reaffirm that belief because however small they may seem, they do help the common folk even saves some of them: the herbs gathered for the herbalist enables her to create medicine for those wounded and sick that might otherwise perish or worsen. The food gathered for the hunter enables him to feed the hungry and the weakened that might otherwise die and starve.

 

In a world where no one seems to care for the common folk and their plight, this figure of Andraste does and the common folk bear witness to how they stem the tide of chaos personally. This figure listens to their pleas and aids them in their trying hour when no other figure of authority would or seemed able to.         

 

The common folk come to believe in the Inquisition through this supposed Herald of Andraste because they are their savior as proven to them by what they've done and so the belief spreads with and through the stories creating more and more credibility to this fledging organization's claim of intending to end the chaos and stabilize the land. 

 

The people who believes them as a figure chosen by Andraste sees evidence of this belief in their what they've done so far to stabilize the land and care for the people. The people who disbelieves the figure as chosen by Andraste believes in them as figure of leadership because of what they've done so far to stabilize the land.  

 

Through the figure, be they seen as the Herald of Andraste or the Inquisitor, the people come to believe in the Inquisition and so turn to the organization with support and a willingness to serve, thus the Inquisition increases it's strength and survivability.  

 

The Inquisition inspires faith and faith builds the Inquisition, whether it be the faith in the Herald of the Andraste or faith in the Inquisitor.

 

 

[straykat]

They really don't. Look at how cheesy it was right after the Battle of Haven, when Cassandra goes, "the one who has been leading us all along" and Leliana holds out the sword Aragorn-Isildur style and then she climbs the stairway and the entire Skyhold apppauses while the golden light of a new sun shines in everyone's eyes and end-game-level victory music resounds. Pls
Then if you try to romance Cullen he's amazed like "oh maker, it's like banging Andraste herself" and Cassandra, in the Haven war room, goes "you were precisely who we needed, when we needed it" among other comments of superstitious reverence.
What did the Inquisitor even do before Skyhold? The Hinterlands? After 5 playthroughs I finally figured out that they were spreading the Inquisition's power through the Hinterlands, I guess, collecting blankets and ram meat, and killing....mages and templars, I guess? But Cassandra was the real force in Val Royeaux when they first met the Lord Seeker, and the advisors (particularly Josephine) set up that nobles/Templars meeting in Champions of the Just. The only accomplishment is that the inquisitor is able to escape the Envy demon in her mind. Although mostly due to Cole's help. In Hushed Whispers....honestly Dorian's the hero there. He knows about using the amulet to get back.

I get propping up a religious figure or celebrity to manipulate masses and forge political alliances. To utilize a marketing brand, of sorts, to create an image andngarner a following. I actually LOVE that idea. The middle ages, a time when the majority of people were probably peasants, wanting to look up to prophets and heralds, and nobles manipulating that alongside a Catholic church. Um, didn't that kind of happen in reality? So yeah, I get it. The problem is, the game wasn't entirely self-aware on this. They merged a role of necessary agency with a position, as I just described, which only honestly works if it is a passive symbol. Like the Last Emperor. The Dowager and the advisers were the real rulers of ancient China. The little baby Emperor is just a symbol, that has multiple uses, and meanings, to the public at large. But he's just a baby. A better protagonist would have been an advisor. Who doesn't necessarily receive the worship on a national scale but gets to kick as* and, probably determine the fate of the nation. Individual groups and people may praise him, like when the new keeper thanks the warden (after a legit boss fight), the king of Orzammar, Bann Teagan thanks the warden. But then they move on.

Being both the symbol and the active agent of change could have worked, I suppose, if we directly controlled more operations on the field instead of just 3 companions.

 

Even so, Joan of Arc was way cooler. And probably crazier.

 

And she had no interest in running some happy umbrella organization either. The Inquisition doesn't stand for anything. People were inspired by the Joan of Arcs because they represented actual ideas and goals. They were symbols of faith, precisely because there was much about them that defined the faith. They didn't come out of the void.

[straykat]

I should preface what I am about to say with that I know it is insufficent for a number of people and that I can completely understand;

 

Now there are quite a number amongst the common folk that believe that the Inquisitor is divinely chosen by Andraste to save them in their hour of despair and these small acts reaffirm that belief because however small they may seem, they do help the common folk even saves some of them: the herbs gathered for the herbalist enables her to create medicine for those wounded and sick that might otherwise perish or worsen. The food gathered for the hunter enables him to feed the hungry and the weakened that might otherwise die and starve.

 

In a world where no one seems to care for the common folk and their plight, this figure of Andraste does and the common folk bear witness to how they stem the tide of chaos personally. This figure listens to their pleas and aids them in their trying hour when no other figure of authority would or seemed able to.         

 

The common folk come to believe in the Inquisition through this supposed Herald of Andraste because they are their savior as proven to them by what they've done and so the belief spreads with and through the stories creating more and more credibility to this fledging organization's claim of intending to end the chaos and stabilize the land. 

 

The people who believes them as a figure chosen by Andraste sees evidence of this belief in their what they've done so far to stabilize the land and care for the people. The people who disbelieves the figure as chosen by Andraste believes in them as figure of leadership because of what they've done so far to stabilize the land.  

 

Through the figure, be they seen as the Herald of Andraste or the Inquisitor, the people come to believe in the Inquisition and so turn to the organization with support and a willingness to serve, thus the Inquisition increases it's strength and survivability.  

 

The Inquisition inspires faith and faith builds the Inquisition, whether it be the faith in the Herald of the Andraste or faith in the Inquisitor.

 

It doesn't even matter if they're commoners. It's not their religion.

 

It's like expecting peasant Buddhists to start believing in a god. Just because it's "religion". When there's a fundamental belief, it doesn't change much.

 

The whole premise of Andrastianism is that the Maker doesn't care. Not symbolically or only in some cases. But completely ditched the world. Except for Andraste's sake. And we don't do anything close to her. She fought an empire and freed slaves. She wasn't some mere symbol, hunting rams for people.

[Shechinah]

Yeah, thanks. I am religious. It isn't that simple.
 
But this particular religion is not on a fast track to explaining mysterious phenomena like that. They believe the Maker is gone. And Andraste had a specific mission - to spread the Chant. And maybe that would change. It is deistic in nature. Even the spirits know this. "A true believer would not require audacious displays of power."
 
This game had to rearrange the lore on the Chantry itself just to push this character. Suddenly people changed their fundamental tenets, on a fairly large scale. A setting should be worth more than this. There's a lot put on the altar here, just to push a plot/character.
 
The only person we've known to be genuinely like this was Leliana. She's a Theist. Not a Deist.

 
I believe it has been shown and mentioned prior to Dragon Age: Inquisition that there is a belief amongst people that Andraste and even the Maker plays a part sometimes when the world and it's people are in peril. As it is with beliefs, it is not one shared by all, of course.
 
Grand Cleric Elthina credits the Maker as an active party in the Fereldan's victory against the Blight;

Grand Cleric Elthina: "You are from over the sea, are you not? Have you come to pray for those you left behind? It was a near thing, what happened in Ferelden. But in the end, the Maker stepped in."
Hawke: "The Hero of Ferelden stopped the Blight. The Maker had nothing to do with it."
Grand Cleric Elthina: "Sometimes the Maker chooses the most unlikely vessels. Even a (race) may be doing His work"

Grand Cleric Elthina: "You are from over the sea, are you not? Have you come to pray for those you left behind? It was a near thing, what happened in Ferelden. But in the end, the Maker stepped in."
Hawke: "He wouldn't let the darkspawn win."
Aveline: "Took his bloody time."
Grand Cleric Elthina: "Mankind has been a trial to Him. We have turned our backs too many times."
Isabella: "My back's the best part of me. What? He dosen't appreciate the view?"

[straykat]

I do like that line with Elthina, I admit.

 

But I think the writers can't make up their mind. They want to make Christian metaphors, but at the same time, their own creation is deistic.

 

So they get real hand wavey about it.

[Addictress]

Dragon Age 2 wins again. Look at that quality

[Shechinah]

I do like that line with Elthina, I admit.

 

But I think the writers can't make up their mind. They want to make Christian metaphors, but at the same time, their own creation is deistic.

 

So they get real hand wavey about it.

 

My point remains nonetheless: there is a presedence set not only for why people would believe a character of a non-human race could be divinely chosen but also as to why people would believe that they could be divinely chosen by the Maker or his Bride and acting on their behalf.
 

[straykat]

My point remains nonetheless: there is a presedence set not only for why people would believe a character of a non-human race could be divinely chosen but also that they could be divinely chosen by the Maker or his Bride and acting on their behalf.
 

 

Funny that Elthina could make this decision so quickly, but not any others

 

Even if there is a precedent, it still begs the question what the DAI protagonist really has to do with Andraste to be her "herald". And sad that association to Andraste is through mere symbolism. If they actually acted in the spirit of Andraste, I'd change my mind a bit. But despite the open world, the game is dinky and we're not even close to her actions.

 

I said that Hushed Whispers was one time that lends a certain importance to the Inquisitor. Cass or Leli see firsthand how disastrous life is without us. I could see that being convincing to them. At the very, it must affect them psychologically.

 

But it's still sad that they have to resort to time travel just to make that point. That would be stupid even in sci-fi.

[Almostfaceman]

I do like that line with Elthina, I admit.

 

But I think the writers can't make up their mind. They want to make Christian metaphors, but at the same time, their own creation is deistic.

 

So they get real hand wavey about it.

 

Agreed. I think they have been that way from the start. There's never been enough information about their religion for there to be a detailed belief system, like a religious creed. 

 

Right? I'm no expert. The religion aspect has been the most boring aspect of their lore, because it's so vague. 

[Shechinah]

Funny that Elthina could make this decision so quickly, but not any others

 

Others have: Elthina was the simply the first that came to mind and whose dialogue I knew I would be able to to transcript because I knew there would be a video avaliable of it.  
 

[straykat]

Others have: Elthina was the simply the first that came to mind and whose dialogue I knew I would be able to to transcript because I knew there would be a video avaliable of it.  
 

 

Who? Kaitlyn? I guess she qualifies as commoner.

 

"The Maker sent you! I just know it!"

 

 

So this is the kind of thing that makes the new story possible. Great.

[Shechinah]

Who? Kaitlyn? I guess she qualifies as commoner.

 

"The Maker sent you! I just know it!"

 

So this is the kind of thing that makes the new story possible. Great.

 

As far as I know it is no uncommon thing for there to be theism in a deistic religion nor deism in a theistic religion and certainly not when the religion in question is major and widespread.  
 

[straykat]

As far as I know it is no uncommon thing for there to be theism in a deistic religion nor deism in a theistic religion and certainly not when the religion in question is major and widespread.  
 

 

It's not really deism then.

 

And real deism was mostly those snooty enlightenment guys. They wanted their cake and to eat it too. They'd never speak like this. They only kept open to the idea of God because the nature of existence was so profound. But daily matters? Not so much.

 

It was always going to be tough to juggle the language of religion and at the same time, maintain this type of ideal in DA.

[Lezio]

In my opinion it would have been far better if Hawke was in charge of The Inquisition pre-Skyhold. The Herald pre-Skyhold did basically nothing to earn anything, and as i already said it's just ridicoulous that Cassandra and Leliana let a no-one decide everything and rule. Hawke, instead, is the freaking Champion and actually has reason to be the one in charge

 

Have Hawke be the leader of the newly formed Inquisition, let us control her/him when it comes the time to make the War-Table missions while The Herald runs around and actually does the grunt work and looks inspiring. Then Hawke leaves or dies in something similiar to Here Lies The Abyss, maybe even at Haven when Corypheus strikes, and bam, The Herald becomes The "new" Inquisitor with the justification that he was actually the one to call the shots in the field and Hawke's "second in command"

 

But no, far better being handed everything to make the player feel all special

[straykat]

In my opinion it would have been far better if Hawke was in charge of The Inquisition pre-Skyhold. The Herald pre-Skyhold did basically nothing to earn anything, and as i already said it's just ridicoulous that Cassandra and Leliana let a no-one to decide everything and to rule.

 

Have Hawke be the leader of the pre(-Inquisition), let us control her/him when it comes the time to make the War-Table missions while The Herald runs around and actually does the grunt work and looks inspiring. Then Hawke leaves or dies in something similiar to Here Lies The Abyss, maybe even at Haven when Corypheus strikes, and bam, The Herald becomes The "new" Inquisitor with the jsutification that he was actually the one to call the shots in the field and Hawke's "second in command"

 

But no, far better being handed everything to make the player feel all special

 

I never thought of that, but that would be neat.

 

Pre-release, I expected us to already be in the organization somehow, and maybe climbed through the ranks. I never expected it to be this silly. I truly wanted to give them more credit.

[Secret Rare]

I must be getting too old for my own good. I don't see the awesome as much anymore.

 

But like I said, DAO wouldn't even be possible without Flemeth. 

Flemeth wouldn't have been necessary without that contrived setup in Ostagar.

[Secret Rare]

In my opinion it would have been far better if Hawke was in charge of The Inquisition pre-Skyhold. The Herald pre-Skyhold did basically nothing to earn anything, and as i already said it's just ridicoulous that Cassandra and Leliana let a no-one to decide everything and to rule. Hawke, ionstead, is the freaking Champion and actually has reason to be the one in charge

 

Have Hawke be the leader of the newly formed Inquisition, let us control her/him when it comes the time to make the War-Table missions while The Herald runs around and actually does the grunt work and looks inspiring. Then Hawke leaves or dies in something similiar to Here Lies The Abyss, maybe even at Haven when Corypheus strikes, and bam, The Herald becomes The "new" Inquisitor with the justification that he was actually the one to call the shots in the field and Hawke's "second in command"

 

But no, far better being handed everything to make the player feel all special

I think it depends on the Hawke,if you helped  Anders to escape and you are also a blood mage i see no reason as for why someone like Cassandra would like to trust you.

[Shechinah]

In my opinion it would have been far better if Hawke was in charge of The Inquisition pre-Skyhold. The Herald pre-Skyhold did basically nothing to earn anything, and as i already said it's just ridicoulous that Cassandra and Leliana let a no-one to decide everything and to rule. Hawke, ionstead, is the freaking Champion and actually has reason to be the one in charge

 

Why do you consider Hawke to be worthy of being the leader based on their own merits and compared to those of Cassandra and Leliana?