254 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

I think it's thrown away because it's exactly what you want.

 

I might have my qualms too, but I think you have too much animosity against what happened to Shepard. And games like this are a response to it. It's overboard in the opposite direction.

The original ending, maybe.

 

But the Trespasser ending does have a bit of tragedy behind it.  With Solas, with the Inquisition, and even with the Inquisitor.

 

Again it's about presentation.  

 

And, to get back on-topic, the Trespasser ending furher reinforces the Inquisitor as not being a Sue character

[Terodil]

Well if we look at what we like and what we dislike, I hated having to play 1- the head of a religious organisation who 2- goes on to save the world. I would have liked to run the inquisition as a worldly law enforcement agency and to have the alternative to turn it into an iron-fisted power apparatus for the protagonist. If we really had had agency, in two years, we could have changed the political landscape to a point where neither Ferelden nor Orlais would have dared openly stand against the Inquisition. But nope! Have to be "the good guy/gal" (minor opportunities to be a dickInky notwithstanding) and save the world... again. And fail, because it's apparently cool to force (ultimate) failure on your protagonists. You know, clichéd cliché-breaking and stuff (how artistically meta). In fact, what happened to the Inky in Trespasser is exactly mirroring what happened to everybody else at the start of DA:I. The idiot ball gets thrown around.

That is, imo, where DA:I really falls short. It's a massive flaw in the basic tapestry of storytelling. The agency/mary-sue question is simply a matter of bad execution.

[straykat]

Well if we look at what we like and what we dislike, I hated having to play 1- the head of a religious organisation who 2- goes on to save the world. I would have liked to run the inquisition as a worldly law enforcement agency and to have the alternative to turn it into an iron-fisted power apparatus for the protagonist. If we really had had agency, in two years, we could have changed the political landscape to a point where neither Ferelden nor Orlais would have dared openly stand against the Inquisition. But nope! Have to be "the good guy/gal" (minor opportunities to be a dickInky notwithstanding) and save the world... again. And fail, because it's apparently cool to force (ultimate) failure on your protagonists. You know, cliché-breaking and stuff. In fact, what happened to the Inky in Trespasser is exactly mirroring what happened to everybody else at the start of DA:I. The idiot ball gets thrown around.

That is, imo, where DA:I really falls short. It's a massive flaw in the basic tapestry of storytelling. The agency/mary-sue question is simply a matter of bad execution.

 

I'm not sure I want to do that, but that's certainly in line with what most Inquisitions are.

 

In fact, I'm watching a documentary on Giordano Bruno... who got lit on fire by the Inquisition. They hung gunpowder around as a neck..... as a "mercy".

 

What was his crime? He said the Universe was infinite.

 

And lets not even talk about Warhammer.

[SkinVision]

I get propping up a religious figure or celebrity to manipulate masses and forge political alliances. To utilize a marketing brand, of sorts, to create an image and garner a following. I actually LOVE that idea. The middle ages, a time when the majority of people were probably peasants, wanting to look up to prophets and heralds, and nobles manipulating that alongside a Catholic church. Um, didn't that kind of happen in reality? So yeah, I get it. The problem is, the game wasn't entirely self-aware on this. They merged a role of necessary agency with a position, as I just described, which only honestly works if it is a passive symbol.

 

Completely agree with this (and everything else you said). I think it would have been more interesting if the inquisitor was an NPC and the PC would be one of the advisors/companions. Having to help the inquisitor and making sure he survives so he can save the day with his special mark. Getting **** done in the background.   

 

 

 

A Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) by definition is an idealized and seemingly perfect character who comes from a low rank and saves the day through unrealistic abilities.  The Inquisitor has two of the three, they come from a humble background (as most heroes are tbh) and they save the day because of some unique ability, but despite this ... they are missing the third and probably most trademark trait of a Mary Su, the seemingly perfect part.  

 

 

But isn't the mark an... unrealistic ability? Granted, it's not something he had from the beginning and it can be taken away. But during the game he's the special guy with the glowing hand who can seal the sky.


It's such an overused trope. I'm repeating myself but it's basically Harry Potter. "Stop starring at my scar/ I'm not special because of my scar/I'm not the chosen one/ leave me alone." In the end it turns out the scar is the only reason he's special after all - he doesn't have any extraordinary abilities. He's chosen. Doesn't matter if by accident or by the maker himself ( At this point I don't even know if I'm talking about the inquisitor or Harry Potter...)
 

[Terodil]

I miss games like KoTOR that offered a real choice. Save the galaxy (cue standard unicorns frolicking over sun-dappled meadows) or...



Such epic alternatives. And they weren't even just red-blue, but you could work for your chosen alternative during the entire game.

/sigh

(And if you say Revan was a Mary Sue you're probably right but I'm going to have to kick you. I don't care. My Revan was the best red-headed anti-heroine in video gaming of all time. Hmpf!)

(And I also don't care about/for what BW did with Revan in SWTOR. Hmpf!)

[straykat]

Completely agree with this (and everything else you said). I think it would have been more interesting if the inquisitor was an NPC and the PC would be one of the advisors/companions. Having to help the inquisitor and making sure he survives so he can save the day with his special mark. Getting **** done in the background.   

 

 

Even the damn webgame (err.. the Last Court) was a better story. And it had nothing to do with the Inquisitor.

 

When that came out before DAI, I thought "cool.. I bet DAI will have some of this intrigue.."

[straykat]

I miss games like KoTOR that offered a real choice. Save the galaxy (cue standard unicorns frolicking over sun-dappled meadows) or...



Such epic alternatives. And they weren't even just red-blue, but you could work for your chosen alternative during the entire game.

/sigh

(And if you say Revan was a Mary Sue you're probably right but I'm going to have to kick you. I don't care. My Revan was the best red-headed anti-heroine in video gaming of all time. Hmpf!)

 

I only played once, but went darkside too.

 

I felt guilty, but by that point, there was no turning back. Killed Carth and the little teen Twilek. Corrupted Bastila.

[Iakus]

 

But isn't the mark an... unrealistic ability? Granted, it's not something he had from the beginning and it can be taken away. But during the game he's the special guy with the glowing hand who can seal the sky.


It's such an overused trope. I'm repeating myself but it's basically Harry Potter. "Stop starring at my scar/ I'm not special because of my scar/I'm not the chosen one/ leave me alone." In the end it turns out the scar is the only reason he's special after all - he doesn't have any extraordinary abilities. He's chosen. Doesn't matter if by accident or by the maker himself ( At this point I don't even know if I'm talking about the inquisitor or Harry Potter...)
 

That's part of the question about DAI:  Is the Anchor the only thing that makes the Inquisitor special?  Or was the Inquisitor being special what got them the Anchor?

 

The game is open to interpretation either way, and the Inquisitor can embrace the specialness, be ambivalent about it, or outright reject it.

[straykat]

That's part of the question about DAI:  Is the Anchor the only thing that makes the Inquisitor special?  Or was the Inquisitor being special what got them the Anchor?

 

The game is open to interpretation either way, and the Inquisitor can embrace the specialness, be ambivalent about it, or outright reject it.

 

Not with those damn questions all the time.

 

I'd like to play my character a sort of explorer and relic hunter for the Chantry. He's got some experience in the northern areas. So combat wise, maybe he learned a thing or two. He also has the trappings of a bard and a scholar. In addition to being an artificer. So he's crafty in general.

 

But it means jack when he asks Dorian basic questions about Tevinter. Among other things. When it comes down to it, it just feels like some random avatar for a noob Player (player.. as in centered on the real person).

[Seraphim24]

(And I also don't care about/for what BW did with Revan in SWTOR. Hmpf!)

 

That was pretty bizzare IMO as well, just like, a cameo with a dash of "Meh."

 

Anyway I'll never understand these things because Mary Sue always seemed like sort of a cool gal to me at any rate.

[straykat]

That was pretty bizzare IMO as well, just like, a cameo with a dash of "Meh."

 

Anyway I'll never understand these things because Mary Sue always seemed like sort of a cool gal to me at any rate.

 

Are you sure you what Mary Sue is?

 

It's never been cool. It started in Star Trek fan fiction circles, I think... where bad writers self-inserted themselves and accomplished all kinds of amazing things, at the expense of the setting. Like even Kirk and Spock had to look like jackasses just to make room for the great Mary Sue character.

 

Wesley Crusher was kind of an actual version of it, for Gene Roddenberry. The later writers kicked the character out.

[Shechinah]

(And I also don't care about/for what BW did with Revan in SWTOR. Hmpf!)

 

Neither did I nor did I care for what they did with the Exile.

 

Thankfully, I can imaging Knights of the Old Republic and The Old Republic as separate universes. My Revan remains a trollish chick and my Exile remains a twi'lek chick slowly moving past the war that haunted her and dying peacefully of old age. 

[SkinVision]

That's part of the question about DAI:  Is the Anchor the only thing that makes the Inquisitor special?  Or was the Inquisitor being special what got them the Anchor?

 

The game is open to interpretation either way, and the Inquisitor can embrace the specialness, be ambivalent about it, or outright reject it.

 

Yeah then that’s probably the problem I have with the game. It felt sort of like everyone-is-just-being-nice-becauce-my-hand-glows.


 

Some companions blatantly tell you they think the inquisitor is chosen: "I need to believe this right now".


 

What does the inquisitor do? Someone already mentioned it: val royeaux? Cassandra.  Templar Quest? Cole. Mage Quest? Dorian. Here lies the abyss? Whoever is left in the fade. Getting Information? Leliana Controlling the battlefield? Cullen. Winter palace? The inquisitor wins because everyone else is even more incompetent.
 Battle of haven? I don't know but this whole defeating Corry and his dragon by stumbling through the snow and destroying the mountain then basically playing Jesus Christ and returning from the dead thing felt kind of forced.

 

You can't even really antagonize characters, especially not your advisors. Why would Cassandra say „Dunno dude it's your decision whether you side with the templars or the mages...". I get she’s a reasonable character who’s able to pass on power but that’s pretty damn early to let some random elf chose your allies. 


[straykat]

Yeah then that’s probably the problem I have with the game. It felt sort of like everyone-is-just-being-nice-becauce-my-hand-glows.


 

Some companions blatantly tell you  they think the inquisitor is chosen: "I need to believe this right now".


 

What does the inquisitor do? Someone already mentioned it: val royeaux? Cassandra.  Templar Quest? Cole. Mage Quest? Dorian. Here lies the abyss? Whoever is left in the fade. Getting Information? Leliana Controlling the battlefield? Cullen. Winter palace? The inquisitor wins because everyone else is even more incompetent.
Battle of haven? I don't know but this whole defeating Corry and his dragon by stumbling through the snow and destroying the mountain then basically playing Jesus Christ and returning from the dead thing felt kind of forced.

 

You can't even really antagonize characters, especially not your advisers. Why would Cassandra say „Dunno dude it's your decision whether you side with the templars or the mages...". I get she’s a reasonable character who’s able to pass on power but that’s pretty damn early to let some random elf chose your allies. 


 

It's done this way, because they're at a loss how to please anyone. They can't just be simple people who write stories anymore. They fear death threats. Maybe giving the path to least resistance on everything was the way to fix that.

 

lol... I'm serious too.

[Seraphim24]

Are you sure you what Mary Sue is?

 

It's never been cool. It started in Star Trek fan fiction circles, I think... where bad writers self-inserted themselves and accomplished all kinds of amazing things, at the expense of the setting. Like even Kirk and Spock had to look like jackasses just to make room for the great Mary Sue character.

 

Wesley Crusher was kind of an actual version of it, for Gene Roddenberry. The later writers kicked the character out.

 

The people or characters sometimes referred to as being excessively Mary Sue or whatever I would be looking at the same character and going hm wait maybe this person isn't my favorite but I'm not entirely sure why they are so "disliked."

 

So I guess perhaps no not quite but likewise don't seem to understand the contempt.

 

It could just be that the parts that resemble it are not omnipresent, I don't know.

[Lezio]

Yeah then that’s probably the problem I have with the game. It felt sort of like everyone-is-just-being-nice-becauce-my-hand-glows.


 

Some companions blatantly tell you they think the inquisitor is chosen: "I need to believe this right now".


 

What does the inquisitor do? Someone already mentioned it: val royeaux? Cassandra.  Templar Quest? Cole. Mage Quest? Dorian. Here lies the abyss? Whoever is left in the fade. Getting Information? Leliana Controlling the battlefield? Cullen. Winter palace? The inquisitor wins because everyone else is even more incompetent.
 Battle of haven? I don't know but this whole defeating Corry and his dragon by stumbling through the snow and destroying the mountain then basically playing Jesus Christ and returning from the dead thing felt kind of forced.

 

You can't even really antagonize characters, especially not your advisors. Why would Cassandra say „Dunno dude it's your decision whether you side with the templars or the mages...". I get she’s a reasonable character who’s able to pass on power but that’s pretty damn early to let some random elf chose your allies. 


 

Yeah, i just replayed that and it felt kind of strange. Like Harbinger staring at Shepard in ME3's ending kind of strange. The Inquisitor has behind him the dragon and infront of him Cory..... then the latter litterally throws him near the catapult and "oh a sword right here". I don't understand why movies/games/whatever have to make things like this happen, if i have to be honest

[straykat]

The people or characters sometimes referred to as being excessively Mary Sue or whatever I would be looking at the same character and going hm wait maybe this person isn't my favorite but I'm not entirely sure why they are so "disliked."

 

So I guess perhaps no not quite but likewise don't seem to understand the contempt.

 

It could just be that the parts that resemble it are not omnipresent, I don't know.

 

I usually like your posts, but if you don't understand, I'm not going to bother.

 

Lets forget whether DAI has a Mary Sue though. I'm just talking about Mary Sues in general. If you still like them, I don't know what to say.

[Seraphim24]

I usually like your posts, but if you don't understand, I'm not going to bother.

 

Lets forget whether DAI has a Mary Sue though. I'm just talking about Mary Sues in general. If you still like them, I don't know what to say.

 

Well according to wikipedia the TFA protagonist qualifies as one or something or other, I'm just saying they seem kind of common and popular.

 

My guess is you are applying a very literal, perhaps more obscure (to the rest of us plebians) of the term and excluding borderline or commonly-associated cases, while holding a single egregious example out in your mind as defining the extreme that no one could possibly accept in order to by default apply it to other persons in the borderline arena which are less objectionable to promote an alternative version, or something, but since we're not going to talk about this I can only guess.

[SkinVision]

Yeah, i just replayed that and it felt kind of strange. Like Harbinger staring at Shepard in ME3's ending kind of strange. The Inquisitor has behind him the dragon and infront of him Cory..... then the latter litterally throws him near the catapult and "oh a sword right here". I don't understand why movies/games/whatever have to make things like this happen, if i have to be honest

 

I always wondered where my companions went. Like I swear Solas, Cass and Varric where right behind my inquisitor killing templars and stuff and then Corry appears and they all just... run?

[SkinVision]

Well according to wikipedia the TFA protagonist qualifies as one or something or other, I'm just saying they seem kind of common and popular.

 

My guess is you are applying a very literal, perhaps more obscure (to the rest of us plebians) of the term and excluding borderline or commonly-associated cases, while holding a single egregious example out in your mind as defining the extreme that no one could possibly accept in order to by default apply it to other persons in the borderline arena which are less objectionable to promote an alternative version, or something, but since we're not going to talk about this I can only guess.

 

A Mary Sue is liked by all in-game (or in-book, in-fan-fiction, whatever) characters, not necessarily by the audience.


 

(sorry for the double post)

[straykat]

Well according to wikipedia the TFA protagonist qualifies as one or something or other, I'm just saying they seem kind of common and popular.

 

My guess is you are applying a very literal, perhaps more obscure (to the rest of us plebians) of the term and excluding borderline or commonly-associated cases, while holding a single egregious example out in your mind as defining the extreme that no one could possibly accept in order to by default apply it to other persons in the borderline arena which are less objectionable to promote an alternative version, or something, but since we're not going to talk about this I can only guess.

 

She's kind of rare. Not common. Only popular. You won't see most writers use it.. it's usually only bad fan fic writers that do it.

 

Her skills are creeping in that direction, but plot wise, she doesn't fit the description.

[Seraphim24]

She's kind of rare. Not common. Only popular.

 

Her skills are creeping in that direction, but plot wise, she doesn't fit the description.

 

Well that still makes my point I didn't claim to be super familiar but I mean, neither super unfamiliar. I suspect Rey didn't qualify for X or Y reason, according to some definition, but according to some definition, she is one, and it is a popular movie.

 

A Mary Sue is liked by all in-game (or in-book, in-fan-fiction, whatever) characters, not necessarily by the audience.


 

(sorry for the double post)

 

Well, it seems often liked by the audience as well, is really my only point.

[straykat]

Well that still makes my point I didn't claim to be super familiar but I mean, neither super unfamiliar. I suspect Rey didn't qualify for X or Y reason, according to some definition, but according to some definition, she is one, and it is a popular movie.

 

 

Well, it seems often liked by the audience as well, is really my only point.

 

If she was a Mary Sue, she'd have an answer to every big plot point. But even that other kid... the stormtrooper.. is needed to destroy that Death Star thing. For example. Han Solo is never diminished in her presence either. He's kind of a throwback to the Obi-Wan role in a way.

[SkinVision]

 

Well, it seems often liked by the audience as well, is really my only point.

 

But that's not the definition of a Mary Sue? The thing about a Mary Sue is that she’s a pretty obvious itself-insert/ way-too-special character who normally provokes negative reactions from the audience.



The "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.


 

Wikipedia-quote. I know, wikipedia isn't a reliable source  but I'm not sure my dictionary contains the definition of a Mary Sue.

[Seraphim24]

If she was a Mary Sue, she'd have an answer to every big plot point. But even that other kid... the stormtrooper.. is needed to destroy that Death Star thing. For example. Han Solo is never diminished in her presence either. He's kind of a throwback to the Obi-Wan role in a way.

 

 

But that's not the definition of a Mary Sue? The thing about a Mary Sue is that she’s a pretty obvious itself-insert/ way-too-special character who normally provokes negative reactions from the audience.



The "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.


 

Wikipedia-quote. I know, wikipedia isn't a reliable source  but I'm not sure my dictionary contains the definition of a Mary Sue.

 

Well at any rate it seems like this kind of thing operates on a sliding scale rather than the realm of absolutes?

 

Anyway I'm getting some muffins, just what I saw, is all.