254 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

 

 

Anyway I'm getting some muffins, just what I saw, is all.

 

Well.. a Mary Sue would make your muffins too. And they'd be the best muffins ever.

 

 

 

And it isn't popular. It'd be everywhere if it was, but most writers would consider it anathema.

[Terodil]

I am kinda with Guinevere on this one, as I've said before. It doesn't help that the term Mary Sue itself is anything but set in stone, this discussion would probably have been easier if we had agreed on a single definition beforehand.

As it is, and I'm not directing this towards anybody in this thread, this term is too often brandied about to put down characters who are simply exceptional. For whatever reason, unexceptional people tend to begrudge exceptional people their abilities and/or success. I agree that characters without character are a major flaw of fictional works, but *that* should be the relevant criterion, not the fact that people "are liked", "are successful" or whatever else, imo. I can think of plenty of characters that are bland despite not being Mary Sues. It is horrible that today it's enough to have, say, an extremely attractive and competent person in-game to invite criticism for being superficial, to put it mildly. The critics are arguing against blandness but are, ironically enough, enforcing it themselves by invoking some 'law of realism' that ultimately is a 'law of mediocrity'.

OK, enough soapbox, sorry >.>

[Iakus]

 

Some companions blatantly tell you they think the inquisitor is chosen: "I need to believe this right now".


 

And their belief doesn't make anything true or false.  It's simply what they  believe.  And the Inquisitor can call it all BS

 

 

You can't even really antagonize characters, especially not your advisors. Why would Cassandra say „Dunno dude it's your decision whether you side with the templars or the mages...". I get she’s a reasonable character who’s able to pass on power but that’s pretty damn early to let some random elf chose your allies. 


 

 

 

 

[straykat]

I am kinda with Guinevere on this one, as I've said before. It doesn't help that the term Mary Sue itself is anything but set in stone, this discussion would probably have been easier if we had agreed on a single definition beforehand.

As it is, and I'm not directing this towards anybody in this thread, this term is too often brandied about to put down people who are simply exceptional. For whatever reason, unexceptional people tend to begrudge exceptional people their abilities and/or success. I agree that characters without character are a major flaw of fictional works, but *that* should be the relevant criterion, not the fact that people "are liked", "are successful" or whatever else, imo. I can think of plenty of characters that are bland despite not being Mary Sues. It is horrible that today it's enough to have, say, an extremely attractive and competent person in-game to invite criticism for being superficial, to put it mildly. The critics are arguing against blandness but are actively enforcing it themselves by invoking some 'law of realism' that ultimately is a 'law of mediocrity'.

OK, enough soapbox, sorry >.>

 

I think it's overused too.

 

But when I saw TFA, I chalked it up to the same silly reason Anakin is badass. The Force. Jedis detect things before they happen.

 

But she didn't have that extra layer to the plot, where Mary Sues are chief problem solver.

[straykat]

And their belief doesn't make anything true or false.  It's simply what they  believe.  And the Inquisitor can call it all BS

 

 

 

 

If she really hated them, she would have seen the farce for what it was and called a Coup.

 

And accomplished it to boot.

[Terodil]

(Totally OT: Another gripe of mine. Having Cassandra as one of the leaders of the Inquisition is like asking the fox to guard the chickens. Option to kick from party plz, kthx)

[straykat]

(Totally OT: Another gripe of mine. Having Cassandra as one of the leaders of the Inquisition is like asking the fox to guard the chickens. Option to kick from party plz, kthx)

 

What why? The Seekers are basically the Inquisition, by another name. It even means the same damn thing. I wouldn't be surprised if they WERE the same thing, until they morphed their story to this.

 

On an individual level, she's the Hero of Orlais, and right hand of the Divine. If anyone has a right, she does.

[Terodil]

(The Seekers have a massive part in the templar/mage situation spiralling out of control. *They* should have stepped in and stopped both Templars and Mages from going bonkers. They should have been neutral peacekeepers. Yet they didn't, and they weren't, when they benevolently 'overlooked' Meredith's misrule which contributed in no small part to the, literally, big bomb. Thus, the kindest assessment would be to say that they simply did not live up to their responsibilities. Cassandra as an influential member of the Seekers definitely cannot wash her hands of it (and to her credit, she doesn't either), but at the same time she still lets herself be guided by the views that led to the catastrophe. Her automatic antagonism towards any 'uncontrolled' mage, or towards Cole, shows she has learnt nothing of substance and most of what she says is ultimately meaningless soul-searching. She paints herself as a person of action, but sometimes *serious* thinking might have helped. But then, being devout and exercising critical thinking are generally two qualities that don't mesh well. If I had had, say, a close confidant of Fiona and staunch pro-mage activist in the party, he/she would also register as a fox watching the chickens. The inquisition needs to be neutral in such a conflict, and cannot by its very composition already take a side. That's my gripe.)

[Iakus]

If she really hated them, she would have seen the farce for what it was and called a Coup.

 

And accomplished it to boot.

Accomplish what, exactly?

 

The Inquisitor may not be a Mary Sue, but is still a Special Snowflake.  the Anchor is needed to close the rifts, and that means keeping the Inquisitor around.

 

Maybe she screwed up by playing up the inquisitor as the Herald of Andraste,  to garner popular support for the Inquisition, but it' too late to undo all that.

 

This isn't like Dead State, where if morale drops to low your own advisor shoots you in the head in a Non-Standard Game Over

[straykat]

Accomplish what, exactly?

 

The Inquisitor may not be a Mary Sue, but is still a Special Snowflake.  the Anchor is needed to close the rifts, and that means keeping the Inquisitor around.

 

Maybe she screwed up by playing up the inquisitor as the Herald of Andraste,  to garner popular support for the Inquisition, but it' too late to undo all that.

 

This isn't like Dead State, where if morale drops to low your own advisor shoots you in the head in a Non-Standard Game Over

 

Accomplish what every Inquisition and embodiment of the Chantry already did ever... without a Herald of Andraste.

 

You act like it's some act of God yourself, with this idea of how unalterable it is.

 

Oh, it's sooo beyond everyone's power now. One person just has to have his way on everything. You know that's how North Korea and Nazi Germany thought? If everyone in those places weren't so dejected, the world would be better off.

 

And yes, I just Godwin'ed this thread

[ArcaneEsper]

Sorry I'm backtracking but isn't a Mary Sue by definition a poorly executed character? There are a bunch of self insert characters around (I can only come up with Agatha Christie's, Ariadne Oliver in the Poirot books rn) but the label Mary Sue comes down to how poorly developed a character is AFAIK.

[Addictress]

dude, can you imagine how awesome it would've been if we were an advisor and the inquisitor was an NPC? The inquisitor could've been a developed messed-up character, like a lazy elf. Or something. And then we watch them grow and learn as a character.

 

Lots of protection missions. Like in Trespasser, we'd be protecting the inquisitor on the way to...

 

oh... guess I shouldn't spoil.... why the hell are people who haven't played Trespasser on this forum anyways? The whole DLC is spoiled for you by now. This is a waste. And a travesty.

[Lezio]

Personally, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is, yeah, a poorly developed character who gets everything handed to him/her without actually earning anything and, in some cases, someone who has all the answers and/or is incredibly powerful without having actually earned that power.

I feel like Inquisition's plot steers The Inquisitor in some of those directions, as i said. A guy who knows nothing about anything gets handed to him from day 1 the keys of a powerful organization because his hand glows green, plus everyone bows to his judgment from the get-go

 

Honestly, my favorite part about Dragon Age:Origins is, well, Dragon Age:Awakening because throughout all of that expansion it was made clear that The Warden had stopped being the "underdog" and had become the big guy, the one to fear, and the awesome part is that he had earned it. The Warden, i feel like, becomes better and better as the game and the plot advances.

 

The Inquisitor, IMHO, starts awesome, becomes even more awesome and kills the (quite weak) villain with awesome. I never felt like he had actually earned power(pun intended) throughout his journey and, honestly, i like Solas' part in Trespasser mostly because all of that power, in the end, means nothing, just as it should

[Dabrikishaw]

Literally all customizable RPG protagonists are Mary Sues.

[ArcaneEsper]

oh... guess I shouldn't spoil.... why the hell are people who haven't played Trespasser on this forum anyways? The whole DLC is spoiled for you by now. This is a waste. And a travesty.

Addictress pls. I spoiled like all of it literally the day it was released. #blessYoutube

[Addictress]

thumb Down

[vbibbi]

 

We can just agree to disagree. Like I said before, "thousands of wardens" has never been a guarantee in defeating Blights. Blights pollute the lands they swarm (permanently) and destroy vast swaths of humanity. If you read the codex's of the previous Blights, they were horrible events where victory was never taken for granted and never assured. The whole of Thedas breathes a sigh of relief when the wardens are victorious and count their blessings. 

 

The Blights are definitely horrible, but the lore hasn't been consistent on the effect they have on the environment. The Blight was supposed to kill everything, but now the Western Approach is finally getting plant life back. And it doesn't sound like the Blight made large portions of Ferelden uninhabitable like one would think; Redcliffe itself is green as can be, actually greener than it was in DAO.

 

dude, can you imagine how awesome it would've been if we were an advisor and the inquisitor was an NPC? The inquisitor could've been a developed messed-up character, like a lazy elf. Or something. And then we watch them grow and learn as a character.

 

Lots of protection missions. Like in Trespasser, we'd be protecting the inquisitor on the way to...

 

oh... guess I shouldn't spoil.... why the hell are people who haven't played Trespasser on this forum anyways? The whole DLC is spoiled for you by now. This is a waste. And a travesty.

 

I've posted the same idea before. The DAI PC is an agent of the Inquisition who rises the ranks through our actions, and finally meets the Inquisitor halfway through the game. Only to discover that the Inquisitor is not Andrastean, doesn't believe they're the Herald, and are actually a political prisoner of the Inquisition used as a figurehead and to seal rifts. The advisors are the actual leaders and keep the Inquisitor cloistered most of the time.

[Lezio]

The Blights are definitely horrible, but the lore hasn't been consistent on the affect they have on the environment. The Blight was supposed to kill everything, but now the Western Approach is finally getting plant life back. And it doesn't sound like the Blight made large portions of Ferelden uninhabitable like one would think; Redcliffe itself is green as can be, actually greener than it was in DAO.

 

 

I've posted the same idea before. The DAI PC is an agent of the Inquisition who rises the ranks through our actions, and finally meets the Inquisitor halfway through the game. Only to discover that the Inquisitor is not Andrastean, doesn't believe they're the Herald, and are actually a political prisoner of the Inquisition used as a figurehead and to seal rifts. The advisors are the actual leaders and keep the Inquisitor cloistered most of the time.

 

Eh, that would have been awesome IMHO

I actually envisioned it in a different way though. The general concept is the same as in Inquisition's, the difference is that the Inquisitor isn't really the warrior kind so our job is to get him/her to various rifts, and in doing, possibly through words AND deeds, we would influence his/her character and his/her decisions. Basically the protagonist acts the part of bodyguard and mentor. Also, i imagine the main game starting a bit before the Conclave and us having a big role in the "how" it came to be

 

But then again, this may be the part of me that loves The Witcher talking

[vbibbi]

Eh, that would have been awesome IMHO

I actually envisioned it in a different way though. The general concept is the same as in Inquisition's, the difference is that the Inquisitor isn't really the warrior kind so our job is to get him/her to various rifts, and in doing, possibly through words AND deeds, we would influence his/her character and his/her decisions. Basically the protagonist acts the part of bodyguard and mentor. Also, i imagine the main game starting a bit before the Conclave and us having a big role in the "how" it came to be

 

But then again, this may be the part of me that loves The Witcher talking

 

That could be interesting, too. As long as it didn't use the "protect the NPC" mechanics. I hate that in games and would not want that for every rift. If the Inquisitor was immortal like Druffy, that's okay.

 

I would also just have one main rift in each area, like the Crestwood one, rather than multiple throughout each map. And tie the rifts into the plot rather than make them into an MMO side quest.

[Lezio]

That could be interesting, too. As long as it didn't use the "protect the NPC" mechanics. I hate that in games and would not want that for every rift. If the Inquisitor was immortal like Druffy, that's okay.

 

I would also just have one main rift in each area, like the Crestwood one, rather than multiple throughout each map. And tie the rifts into the plot rather than make them into an MMO side quest.

 

Yeah, that's how i imagined it. Especially since, apart from Crestwood (and the Exalted Plains), i never felt like i was actually saving anyone from demons since every area is basically devoid of people

[German Soldier]

Personally, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is, yeah, a poorly developed character who gets everything handed to him/her without actually earning anything and, in some cases, someone who has all the answers and/or is incredibly powerful without having actually earned that power.
I feel like Inquisition's plot steers The Inquisitor in some of those directions, as i said. A guy who knows nothing about anything gets handed to him from day 1 the keys of a powerful organization because his hand glows green, plus everyone bows to his judgment from the get-go

Honestly, my favorite part about Dragon Age:Origins is, well, Dragon Age:Awakening because throughout all of that expansion it was made clear that The Warden had stopped being the "underdog" and had become the big guy, the one to fear, and the awesome part is that he had earned it. The Warden, i feel like, becomes better and better as the game and the plot advances.

The Inquisitor, IMHO, starts awesome, becomes even more awesome and kills the (quite weak) villain with awesome. I never felt like he had actually earned power(pun intended) throughout his journey and, honestly, i like Solas' part in Trespasser mostly because all of that power, in the end, means nothing, just as it should

Disagree on DAA
If you was an Orlesian warden then you have the same issue of DAI,from nobody to commander in a short time frame.

[German Soldier]

The Blights are definitely horrible, but the lore hasn't been consistent on the effect they have on the environment. The Blight was supposed to kill everything, but now the Western Approach is finally getting plant life back. And it doesn't sound like the Blight made large portions of Ferelden uninhabitable like one would think; Redcliffe itself is green as can be, actually greener than it was in DAO.

This is i think because the taint is related to the titans blood this it corrupt the land at first but them they return to be Luke before or even better.

[BansheeOwnage]

Yeah, i just replayed that and it felt kind of strange. Like Harbinger staring at Shepard in ME3's ending kind of strange. The Inquisitor has behind him the dragon and infront of him Cory..... then the latter litterally throws him near the catapult and "oh a sword right here". I don't understand why movies/games/whatever have to make things like this happen, if i have to be honest

Well, Harbinger did end up lasing Shepard to hell and back, almost literally. However, while I thought IYHSB was a great mission, it does fall victim to some negative storytelling aspects, like villains who just won't kill their opponents when they're at their mercy. Just take this shot for instance:

 

 

If the Red Lyrium Dragon just spat its red lyrium at her instead of roaring, BAM - game over. Like, it's even the same movement for the dragon...

[Seraphim24]

The idea of a powerful leader as kind of a "godly" figure goes at least as far back as Ancient Egypt I believe, where leaders were considered to be kind of "gods" with powers above and beyond the regular person.

 

Not only that, Alexander Hamilton was a firm believer in the notion of "powerful, exceptional" leader and sought to implement that in the framework of the constitution, along with ideas such as that the president should be elected for life and all that.

 

Interestingly (perhaps), Germany has kind of the opposite tradition for much of it's history it's a story of multiple competing factions, provinces, cantons, etc, and heavy de-centralization, if not downright absence of a central state. Even as recently as the 1860s or so they were in a case of outright civil war essentially (Austro-Prussian war) It was only after the kind of more forceful (and in the opinion of many, autocratic) forays of the Normans (from northern France) through Italy that Barbarossa kind of felt inspired to be part of a sort of Kingdom, at least so I understand.

 

Ditto for Rome prior to Octavian, Antony, and Cleopatra, as well as the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, and East Anglia) prior to (er the Normans again).

 

Anyway, just saying it's common in many different contexts.

 

Anyway I got the idea for Ma- Rey sue from TFA from Honest Trailers' (spoilers by the way)

 

[German Soldier]

Well, Harbinger did end up lasing Shepard to hell and back, almost literally. However, while I thought IYHSB was a great mission, it does fall victim to some negative storytelling aspects, like villains who just won't kill their opponents when they're at their mercy. Just take this shot for instance:

 

 

If the Red Lyrium Dragon just spat its red lyrium at her instead of roaring, BAM - game over. Like, it's even the same movement for the dragon...

Maybe is an impression of mine but this dragon seem bigger than the archdemon.