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Is The Inquisitor a Mary Sue?


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#201
GoldenGail3

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The idea of a powerful leader as kind of a "godly" figure goes at least as far back as Ancient Egypt I believe, where leaders were considered to be kind of "gods" with powers above and beyond the regular person.

 

Not only that, Alexander Hamilton was a firm believer in the notion of "powerful, exceptional" leader and sought to implement that in the framework of the constitution, along with ideas such as that the president should be elected for life and all that.

 

Interestingly (perhaps), Germany has kind of the opposite tradition for much of it's history it's a story of multiple competing factions, provinces, cantons, etc, and heavy de-centralization, if not downright absence of a central state. Even as recently as the 1860s or so they were in a case of outright civil war essentially (Austro-Prussian war) It was only after the kind of more forceful (and in the opinion of many, autocratic) forays of the Normans (from northern France) through Italy that Barbarossa kind of felt inspired to be part of a sort of Kingdom, at least so I understand.

 

Ditto for Rome prior to Octavian, Antony, and Cleopatra, as well as the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, and East Anglia) prior to (er the Normans again).

 

Anyway, just saying it's common in many different contexts.

 

Anyway I got the idea for Ma- Rey sue from TFA from Honest Trailers' (spoilers by the way)

 

Honest Trailers are the best thing about Youtube... 


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#202
Almostfaceman

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Honest Trailers are the best thing about Youtube... 

 

I'm not sure I'm brave enough to honest my beloved Star Wars. 


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#203
GoldenGail3

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I'm not sure I'm brave enough to honest my beloved Star Wars. 

It's hilarious when they do it though... But back on topic... I'm not really sure if the Quiz is a Mary Sue or not.. They could be... 



#204
straykat

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If anyone thinks the "god" versions of Caesar, Antony, and Cleopatra are more interesting than the real ones, they're silly. There's enough drama there on it's own.

 

Alexander Hamilton was a Centralist.. of course he would say that. You'll still see this rift in America between him and Jeffersonians. Don't expect many Americans to care about what he represents. Even if they don't know his name. Most people don't like elitists, who think it's their god-given right to be "one of the betters". It's nobility by another name.



#205
Lezio

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Well, Harbinger did end up lasing Shepard to hell and back, almost literally. However, while I thought IYHSB was a great mission, it does fall victim to some negative storytelling aspects, like villains who just won't kill their opponents when they're at their mercy. Just take this shot for instance:

 

 

If the Red Lyrium Dragon just spat its red lyrium at her instead of roaring, BAM - game over. Like, it's even the same movement for the dragon...

 

Eh, Harbinger litterally polverizes every soldier who gets near the beacon, but not Shep. Also, the evacuation scene they add with the Extended Cut makes even less sense, Harbinger could have just destroyed the Normandy with one shot and.... bye everyone

 

Maybe is an impression of mine but this dragon seem bigger than the archdemon.

 

I actually think that dragons in Inquisition seem to be much smaller than dragons in Origins and DA2. Then again, the dragons in the latters are probably much older than the ones in the former so it would make makes if it were true


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#206
Terodil

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Meh. Sometimes there's simply a conjuncture of talent, equipment, and luck. The ME 'luck' can hardly be called 'overdone', considering what happened to the billions of people who just died. Life is like that, it hits you in the face repeatedly and then offers you an icecream. Sometimes. I went a bit far with that simile didn't I.

Anyway, I maintain that the issue is not occasionally having said conjuncture at all. Summarily calling that bad storytelling would be silly, because it would lead to simply another paradigm of clichéd and unrealistic storytelling where competence and luck do not exist. The question is whether the individual appraiser considers it overdone or not. That's a highly subjective question.

#207
Almostfaceman

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Eh, Harbinger litterally polverizes every soldier who gets near the beacon, but noy Shep. Also, the evacuation scene they add with the Extended Cut makes even less sense, Harbinger could have jsut destroyed the Normandy with one shot and.... bye everyone

 

 

Yes I have a hard time not laughing my behind off every time I play through that... though I appreciate saying goodbye to our LI... that's just not the way to do it. Not even close. 


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#208
straykat

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At least you get to say goodbye to their face. I only played a Jack romance. Holograms suck.


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#209
midnight tea

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I have one answer for this question: YES. Which is why the relationships with their companions/advisors feel kind of fake.


Why would a guy like Cullen ask the Inquisitor how to handye his lyrium addiction. Why would Solas call them wise. Why would Leliana give a **** about whether they tell her to kill her agent or not. The character incredibly generic and doesn't really do anything to "deserve" respect. Everything somehow just falls into place for them.


However I must admit the game give a pretty accurate experience on how it is to be a generic, average person with a bit of luck who every body likes.

 

Cullen does explain why he tells them of their lyrium addiction and eventually allows to handle it - they're the Inquisitor, which effectively makes them his leader. And Heralds become Inquisitor after all the advisers decide that they're worthy (or think they're worthy at that time) of leading Inquisition after events in Haven. Before that he mentions nothing of his decisions about lyrium.

 

Solas only calls them wise if we actually get enough approval. If we don't, well... his assessment is not so generous.

 

Leliana is caught in a moment, plus she herself doesn't really know what to make of the Herald - as evidenced by scene just before the one with agent. She prays and then directly asks PC what's the Maker's plan, angrily perhaps, but as if she actually allowed herself to think that they're indeed godsend.

 

Also - everything only "falls into place" only if you work for it. Inkys don't really gain much respect if you don't - people can leave them, Cassandra can get drunk and tell them how much she regrets exalting them and by telling Cullen to take lyrium again you're getting him killed after Trespasser... not to mention that during Trespasser nobody really wants to talk with Inquisitor or get them any favors other than bare minimum that is necessary to get through this.


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#210
straykat

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I think at the heart of it is I don't trust the people writing, tbh. I don't think they understand how most religious people think.. It comes off as cynical to me. Or using the lowest common denominators of religion to build their point...and portraying it as common. And I think the only way to be entertained is to be that cynical yourself. Where all religion is for the weak, open to random people dispensing all the answers for you. If you don't believe that, then the Inquisitor comes off as a dumb idea.

 

The ironic thing is that the real Inquisition was skeptical in nature.. too skeptical. Brutally skeptical. Instead of embracing every new fangled belief, it smothered everything outside it's scope as heresy. It killed people like the Herald. Or even hints of people like it. And then some.



#211
midnight tea

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Personally, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is, yeah, a poorly developed character who gets everything handed to him/her without actually earning anything and, in some cases, someone who has all the answers and/or is incredibly powerful without having actually earned that power.

I feel like Inquisition's plot steers The Inquisitor in some of those directions, as i said. A guy who knows nothing about anything gets handed to him from day 1 the keys of a powerful organization because his hand glows green, plus everyone bows to his judgment from the get-go

 

You're confusing two things - Inquisitor only got "handed" things in a sense that they had all this new responsibility and role thrown on them and they suddenly have to find themselves in a new situation, thought by many people to be savior of the world. Whether they grow into the role, or a role of capable leader, is pretty much entirely dependent on how you play them.

 

Honestly, my favorite part about Dragon Age:Origins is, well, Dragon Age:Awakening because throughout all of that expansion it was made clear that The Warden had stopped being the "underdog" and had become the big guy, the one to fear, and the awesome part is that he had earned it. The Warden, i feel like, becomes better and better as the game and the plot advances.

 
The Inquisitor, IMHO, starts awesome, becomes even more awesome and kills the (quite weak) villain with awesome. I never felt like he had actually earned power(pun intended) throughout his journey and, honestly, i like Solas' part in Trespasser mostly because all of that power, in the end, means nothing, just as it should
 
Funny that you say that, because I think Warden is way more Sue'ish than the Inquisitor. Ever since the origin stories the game keeps underlining how awesome they are - that's a pretty telltale sign of Mary Sue. Inquisition in that regard is more balanced - as much of the potential they could have, DAI makes it pretty clear that the greatness is imposed on the PC, rather than it's sort of inherent, like in case of the Warden. And a lot more depends on Inquisitor actually going out there and taking care of their image by doing stuff in order to actually make Inquisition grow beyond bare minimum. We don't have much of that in DAO.
 
There are also a lot of moments in DAO where the resolution hinges on a fact that Warden Is Awesome or has a copious amounts of sheer luck.
 
Ostagar gets attacked, everybody dies around you? Don't worry, the ancient witch will swoop down and save specifically you. She'll also hand you papers that will make creation of the army possible - yes, you'd have to work for it, but the road to getting this alliance is clear, as evidenced by the fact that Loghain's people can't do anything to be let into Orzammar, while HoF just approaches the guards and flashes the treaties, like a diamond-studded credit card before a very expensive club.
 
Branca couldn't get to the Anvil in what... 2 years time and resorted to turning some of her people into Broodmothers? Warden just breezes through that place with nothing but their little team. They get locked in the Fade, even those who are entirely unfamiliar with it? THEY'RE the only ones who can help everyone get away from it. Not even Wynne or Morrigan, who realistically should know much more about the Fade, do much to help there, if at all.

 

And so on and so forth.


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#212
Lezio

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...

 

I feel like i already "answered" most of your points in my previous posts in this topic, if i have to be honest. Or, at the very laast, that i already gave my perspective on the whole thing

I could anwer again but i would really just be repeating what i already said in my OP post and in the 1st few pages of the thread, so yeah :D



#213
GoldenGail3

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Fine.... I'll be legit... Well it do think the Inquistor is a Mary Sue, they are oh so prefect in every way shape and form... They magically become a seat of power, seemly overnight, with no real pratice or leadership, they become The Inqusitor becuase of a magical item that went awry (seriously, them touching the orb was a misplaced step on there behalf and they were lucky to not be killed instantly by Cory).

I do think that becuase of this - indeed, they are. They seemly have everything overnight and their worshiped, for Makers sake, they didn't even try to rise to power, they simply did... So, there's that. I think the Warden is also one, but do I care? No, not really, I like feeling like I have all the power in the world - and becuase of that, I'm gonna say being a Mary Sue isn't the worst thing in the world... Sense all CC created characters in RPG's are pretty much all Mary Sues in general.
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#214
Catilina

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Fine.... I'll be legit... Well it do think the Inquistor is a Mary Sue, they are oh so prefect in every way shape and form... They magically become a seat of power, seemly overnight, with no real pratice or leadership, they become The Inqusitor becuase of a magical item that went awry (seriously, them touching the orb was a misplaced step on there behalf and they were lucky to not be killed instantly by Cory).

I do think that becuase of this - indeed, they are. They seemly have everything overnight and their worshiped, for Makers sake, they didn't even try to rise to power, they simply did... So, there's that. I think the Warden is also one, but do I care? No, not really, I like feeling like I have all the power in the world - and becuase of that, I'm gonna say being a Mary Sue isn't the worst thing in the world... Sense all CC created characters in RPG's are pretty much all Mary Sues in general.

That's right, and whether even I like both. Yet Hawke's my favorite.



#215
Lezio

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That's actually pretty common in DA franchise,i think in DAO was even worse.

also what kind of armor you have in the picture avatar?

 

Sorry, just read this :P

It's the Black version of the Warden Commander Armor

http://www.nexusmods...age/mods/3258/?

It's a mod that replaces all the warden armors in Origins and Awakening with the warden armors seen in DA2 and Inquisition. Looks cool as heck, plus the Awakening party in those armors just looks wardenly and badass



#216
Fozee

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Only in the way that RPG PCs are generally Mary Sue's.

Which is fine by me.

 

How else would those of us who are perfect play RPGs?


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#217
GoldenGail3

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How else would those of us who are perfect play RPGs?


I don't know - it's a mystery of the ages... And yeah, I agree 100% with that dude, but I didn't mean to copy him/her exactly...

#218
straykat

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Again, I say.. I'm outgrowing the genre if this was the case. That everyone is a Mary Sue.

 

I don't think I even abided it well when I was a kid. But as an adult, it's definitely time to put away childish things. If games can't grow up along with me, what's the point of sticking with the medium? I threw away most of my other toys too. About 30 years ago.

 

Of course, this isn't true. Games can grow. Just Bioware is having a tough go at it.


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#219
German Soldier

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Sorry, just read this :P

It's the Black version of the Warden Commander Armor

http://www.nexusmods...age/mods/3258/?

It's a mod that replaces all the warden armors in Origins and Awakening with the warden armors seen in DA2 and Inquisition. Looks cool as heck, plus the Awakening party in those armors just looks wardenly and badass

Oh i see i only tried the metallic version from Vlissa i will try this one someday if i will retrn to DAO



#220
GoldenGail3

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Again, I say.. I'm outgrowing the genre if this was the case. That everyone is a Mary Sue.
 
I don't think I even abided it well when I was a kid. But as an adult, it's definitely time to put away childish things. If games can't grow up along with me, what's the point of sticking with the medium? I threw away most of my other toys too. About 30 years ago.
 
Of course, this isn't true. Games can grow. Just Bioware is having a tough go at it.


A really hard time at it... It would seem...

#221
Lezio

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Personally i think that most character in most RPGs ever have the to be Mary Sues. The Warden, The Bhaalspawn, The Dragonborn, The Exile(kinda but note really), they can be Mary Sues if the player makes them such

 

For example, when i first played Origins i didn't understand the concept of roleplaying so my Cousland ended up being a generic good guy with no real depth to him. Made all the "right" choices because why not. Now that i am a little older i ended up considering my canon Warden a blood mage who killed Connor, refused the ritual, let King Alistair sacrifice himself and destroyed Amaranthine. I made different choices based on the character, which effectively made him a character and not just a tool

 

The Inquisitor, as i alreayd expressed in the topic, feels (IMHO) like some kind of self-insert who can do, basically, no wrong, gets constantly flattered without actually having earned the flattery and whom, at times, can choose to be regretful or sad about his actions just to add some drama to the whole thing


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#222
Terodil

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Again, I say.. I'm outgrowing the genre if this was the case. That everyone is a Mary Sue.
 
I don't think I even abided it well when I was a kid. But as an adult, it's definitely time to put away childish things. If games can't grow up along with me, what's the point of sticking with the medium? I threw away most of my other toys too. About 30 years ago.
 
Of course, this isn't true. Games can grow. Just Bioware is having a tough go at it.


This is beginning to p!ss me off. First, you level a criticism at BW's storytelling. Fair enough, I can understand your point, even though quite a number of posters, me included, disagree more or less strongly, especially where the affective component of it is concerned ("be that as it may; am I OK with this?").

But you keep re-iterating the claim that what you don't like is childish, implying that everyone who disagrees with you is also childish and has, unlike you, failed to "grow up" 30 years ago. You invalidate them -- not just their positions! -- so fundamentally that you've just made any kind of debate superfluous.

#223
straykat

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This is beginning to p!ss me off. First, you level a criticism at BW's storytelling. Fair enough, I can understand your point, even though quite a number of posters, me included, disagree more or less strongly, especially where the affective component of it is concerned ("be that as it may; am I OK with this?").

But you keep re-iterating the claim that what you don't like is childish, implying that everyone who disagrees with you is also childish and has, unlike you, failed to "grow up" 30 years ago. You invalidate them -- not just their positions! -- so fundamentally that you've just made any kind of debate superfluous.

 

Be pissed off then. Only someone who knows I'm right would be. A kid wouldn't care. :P

 

Believe it or not though, I say it for your benefit. Not to insult you. Games should respect it's adult crowd better. A large segment of fans are 30+. And Bioware fans specifically have been around since the early 2000s or so. It's nearing 20 years ago. Yet the formula stays the same. It's like if adults kept reading Weiss/Hickman D&D novels.


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#224
Addictress

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The idea of a powerful leader as kind of a "godly" figure goes at least as far back as Ancient Egypt I believe, where leaders were considered to be kind of "gods" with powers above and beyond the regular person.

Not only that, Alexander Hamilton was a firm believer in the notion of "powerful, exceptional" leader and sought to implement that in the framework of the constitution, along with ideas such as that the president should be elected for life and all that.

Interestingly (perhaps), Germany has kind of the opposite tradition for much of it's history it's a story of multiple competing factions, provinces, cantons, etc, and heavy de-centralization, if not downright absence of a central state. Even as recently as the 1860s or so they were in a case of outright civil war essentially (Austro-Prussian war) It was only after the kind of more forceful (and in the opinion of many, autocratic) forays of the Normans (from northern France) through Italy that Barbarossa kind of felt inspired to be part of a sort of Kingdom, at least so I understand.

Ditto for Rome prior to Octavian, Antony, and Cleopatra, as well as the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, and East Anglia) prior to (er the Normans again).

Anyway, just saying it's common in many different contexts.

Anyway I got the idea for Ma- Rey sue from TFA from Honest Trailers' (spoilers by the way)

https://www.youtube....h?v=vs3sVrm_W4o


The difference is that the pharaohs and other such god kings were bred to believe in it themselves and became wilfull participants of it. I referred to the baby emperor because the baby can't do anything about it and is more or less a passive symbol. By the time they grew up, of course, they believe in it themselves. The baby is how I view the inquisitor, having stumbled into the anchor.

#225
Terodil

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Be pissed off then. Only someone who knows I'm right would be. A kid wouldn't care. :P
 
Believe it or not though, I say it for your benefit. Not to insult you. Games should respect it's adult crowd better. A large segment of fans are 30+. And Bioware fans specifically have been around since the early 2000s or so. It's nearing 20 years ago. Yet the formula stays the same. It's like if adults kept reading Weiss/Hickman D&D novels.


This sort of ad-hominem is becoming ridiculous. You insist on doing it despite being called out for it and then call *me* childish? It's been a while since somebody has talked to me in such a presumptuous and patronising way. It certainly isn't what I would consider 'adult behaviour'.

And over such a small thing, too. Disappointing.
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